Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[NA Hockey]

Ok what significant issues are you talking about? You can't just accuse a player of being a cancer without having something. Where's the scoop? You don't have a damn thing to justify crucifying Scheifele, just you like player X more than player Y.

It's just like all the Wheeler shit talk that came before Scheifele. Bad leader, etc.

When I show stats that the leader you belove shit the bed down the stretch, it's just a small sample size. Same with your supposed 1st line winger. It's pointless having this discussion.

Getting Perfetti on Dubois's line probably came from up top. Since Dubois takes more gravy offensive zone draws, you bring the kid up in a place to succeed. Scheif being the only righty C will take d-zone draws, and maybe the Jets aren't comfortable with Perfetti in that spot, at the very begining of his career. I can think of the one shift Perfetti and Reichel had on Scheif's line in Colorado going in the back of the net, because the kid was slow on the zone clear.

There's always a different perspective. I'm willing to listen to some things, but frankly the narrative on Scheifele has taken on a life of its own.

Perfetti was on the for exactly zero goals in the 7-1 loss to Colorado, his only game against Colorado this season.

 

[surixon]

Perfetti was on the for exactly zero goals in the 7-1 loss to Colorado, his only game against Colorado this E”season.

Yup it was Copp on the ice with Scheifele and Rechiel on that goal.

Also who cares, hockey is a game of mistakes and you can find a list of them for every player in the league. It's when players make consistient mistakes and show consistient poor play in certain situations that it's a problem.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Yup it was Copp on the ice with Scheifele and Rechiel on that goal.

Also who cares, hockey is a game of mistakes and you can find a list of them for every player in the league. It's when players make consistient mistakes and show consistient poor play in certain situations that it's a problem.

Or if they show a constant lack of effort that doesn’t have them in a position to make a mistake in the first place

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Possibly... except we had Perfetti, Wheeler and Svech playing top six right side - there was no reason not to try it out instead of forcing Wheeler onto that line and benching Svech...

I mean if Scheif puts away his ego or we at least get a half decent return
KFC-PLD-Perfetti
Ehlers-Scheif-Wheeler

That's one of the best top sixes in the league....

This goes back further than this season though.

I wasn't wild about playing Perfetti on the right side. They wanted Perfetti with PLD so that meant RW. We could have used Wheeler and Svech and played Ehlers on LW. That would have meant Perfetti on the 3rd or 4th line. Familiar story for young, skilled players. Be a checker.

So we could have gone with your lines. I'm not sure if that would have been among the best top 6's in the league or not. 3 small wingers and C's with defensive issues. But it should have been pretty good.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

This goes back further than this season though.

I wasn't wild about playing Perfetti on the right side. They wanted Perfetti with PLD so that meant RW. We could have used Wheeler and Svech and played Ehlers on LW. That would have meant Perfetti on the 3rd or 4th line. Familiar story for young, skilled players. Be a checker.

So we could have gone with your lines. I'm not sure if that would have been among the best top 6's in the league or not. 3 small wingers and C's with defensive issues. But it should have been pretty good.

Oh I agree that's its too far gone with scheif but

I wouldn't frame it as three small wingers when wheeler, pld, svech are big guys... every top six has a mix like that

 

[voyageur]

Perfetti was on the for exactly zero goals in the 7-1 loss to Colorado, his only game against Colorado this season.

You're right about that. Now I am not sure which shift it was that I remember about that game. That's the actual game where he first got the start on the Dubois-Connor line after Svetch was injured or demoted. He started with Lowry-Reichel I think. So I'm wrong all the way, or the shift didn't end up in a goal.

 

[voyageur]

I wish there was a stat that shows how many lazy plays defensively account for a goal against.

I bet it would even sheifs point totals out quite a bit.

Doesn’t matter how much you score if your responsible for almost as many

If I went to 20 games to compare against Dubois it would 11 goals, 17 assists, +2.

How many other guys on this team put up 28 points in a 20 game stretch? I am willing to bet only 1.

We have a very unique player, and if the Jets can establish a 1-2 punch at centre they should be one of the tougher teams. I'd say that both our top 2 centres can improve on their overall game, and I'll just leave it at that.

It's a little hard to believe that Dubois is going to get big money, maybe highest paid on the team, for numbers that Scheif would get year in, year out.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Oh I agree that's its too far gone with scheif but

I wouldn't frame it as three small wingers when wheeler, pld, svech are big guys... every top six has a mix like that

I wasn't referring to Scheif. I was referring to Ehlers at RW.

Don't know how else you could possibly frame KFC, Perfetti and Ehlers. PLD is a C and Svech wasn't in that top 6.

 

[buggs]

If I went to 20 games to compare against Dubois it would 11 goals, 17 assists, +2.

How many other guys on this team put up 28 points in a 20 game stretch? I am willing to bet only 1.

We have a very unique player, and if the Jets can establish a 1-2 punch at centre they should be one of the tougher teams. I'd say that both our top 2 centres can improve on their overall game, and I'll just leave it at that.

It's a little hard to believe that Dubois is going to get big money, maybe highest paid on the team, for numbers that Scheif would get year in, year out.

Let's be a little realistic here though.

Remember when Draisaitl signed his deal? It seemed utterly absurd. It seemed so at the time because it was a top ten contract. But that's a few years ago.

Scheifele's deal is no question an utter bargain and one of the best deals in the league per performance.

But Dubois is signing his deal in 2022-23, not 2015-16 per Scheifele or Draisaitl in 2017-18. Salaries have increased.

Then add that difference in reality to Scheifele's seeming aversion to anything defensive for the past few seasons. No question Scheifele is going to outscore Dubois but I'm not convinced net impact on the overall score is in favor of Scheifele. No interest in going below the redline on defense, changing perpetually when the other team is entering the offensive zone (opposite to what anyone is realistically taught) and a substantial degree of indifference to the outcome of games.

There is more to hockey than scoring. Yes, you can't win if you don't put the puck in the net, no question. But if you give up 6 for every 4 you score, does it matter how many points you put up (metaphorically speaking)?

Ideally Scheifele comes out of his funk with a new coach and we don't move him, so we have a remarkable (top 5 in league?) 1-2 punch at center. But if he continues to play Eeyore I'm not sure we're better off.

 

[tbcwpg]

I just look at it this way. You look at the last 19 games for Evgeni Svetchnikov and he put up 1 goal, was -7.

Mark Scheifele's last 19 games, 9 goals, 16 assists, +3.

And you have guys on these boards saying Scheifele should be shipped out because he gave up on the team, and Svetchnikov should be a 1st line winger.

Call me confused?

It's not point production, it's effort like on this goal which stands out in my memory of Scheifele down the stretch.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

I wasn't referring to Scheif. I was referring to Ehlers at RW.

Don't know how else you could possibly frame KFC, Perfetti and Ehlers. PLD is a C and Svech wasn't in that top 6.

Well you sort of.shifted the argument... we're we not talking about ehlers not playing with scheif and wheeler - and it kind of shifted to size... I was just saying half our top six is fairly big - anyway I'm not totally sure what point you are making

 

[Jets 31]

I know some may think we are picking on Scheifele but the guy doesn't play hard enough defensively for the Jets to get to the next level. If he works harder at defending in his own zone he might get less points but the TEAM will be more successful i think and as a fan of the Jets that's all i care about. And as a assistant captain that's all Scheifele should care about too, the Jets success. Just one Dude's opinion.

 

[ps241]

It's not point production, it's effort like on this goal which stands out in my memory of Scheifele down the stretch.

This type of more obvious and egregious floating was so tough to watch last season. You know it got bad when the national commentators were routinely commenting on Scheifele’s puzzlig lack of effort. Not sure what happened but Mark turned from a player I use to brag about and cheer for into a leader I felt was a net net liability.

Sad

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well you sort of.shifted the argument... we're we not talking about ehlers not playing with scheif and wheeler - and it kind of shifted to size... I was just saying half our top six is fairly big - anyway I'm not totally sure what point you are making

You were talking about NOT playing Ehlers - Scheif - Wheeler. I pointed out that Ehlers was being used at RW making that unavailable. You countered with the availability of Svech to play RW. I replied that Ehlers at RW went back further than this season. Not a point. Just a fact.

We worked around to your proposed top 6, which you called one of the best in the league. I pointed out that 3 of your 4 wingers were quite small. You countered that by saying another winger who was not in your top 6 was big and so were the C's - which does not change the fact that 3 of your 4 wingers were small.

So your "one of the best top 6's in the league" had 3 small guys and 3 defensively challenged big guys.

That said, I don't disagree that Ehlers - Scheif - Wheeler was a good option that was abandoned for no apparent reason. That top 6 could have been pretty good, though flawed.

 

[Teemusalami204]

This type of more obvious and egregious floating was so tough to watch last season. You know it got bad when the national commentators were routinely commenting on Scheifele’s puzzlig lack of effort. Not sure what happened but Mark turned from a player I use to brag about and cheer for into a leader I felt was a net net liability.

Sad

The thing is this type of floating has been around for a long long time but the jets were having a bit of success so it was masked.

He has always been this player. It’s just got way worse the last 3 years

 

[tbcwpg]

The thing is this type of floating has been around for a long long time but the jets were having a bit of success so it was masked.

He has always been this player. It’s just got way worse the last 3 years

I disagree. He wasn't great defensively before but was trying. The last 3 months or so he was also not trying. I can forgive poor defensive play to a point but he needs to put some effort in. Hopefully he can rebound in that regard next season if he's here.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I disagree. He wasn't great defensively before but was trying. The last 3 months or so he was also not trying. I can forgive poor defensive play to a point but he needs to put some effort in. Hopefully he can rebound in that regard next season if he's here.

Earlier in his career, he was actually pretty good defensively, IMO. I don't mean great but better than E for effort. He was probably about a C grade in that aspect of the game. He tried, and he had some success.

 

[bennylundholm]

Ok what significant issues are you talking about? You can't just accuse a player of being a cancer without having something. Where's the scoop? You don't have a damn thing to justify crucifying Scheifele, just you like player X more than player Y.

It's just like all the Wheeler shit talk that came before Scheifele. Bad leader, etc.

When I show stats that the leader you belove shit the bed down the stretch, it's just a small sample size. Same with your supposed 1st line winger. It's pointless having this discussion.

Getting Perfetti on Dubois's line probably came from up top. Since Dubois takes more gravy offensive zone draws, you bring the kid up in a place to succeed. Scheif being the only righty C will take d-zone draws, and maybe the Jets aren't comfortable with Perfetti in that spot, at the very begining of his career. I can think of the one shift Perfetti and Reichel had on Scheif's line in Colorado going in the back of the net, because the kid was slow on the zone clear.

There's always a different perspective. I'm willing to listen to some things, but frankly the narrative on Scheifele has taken on a life of its own.

When 55 is repeatedly called out for his lack of effort by other commentators the truth is apparent.
His lack of back checking, constant giveaways, little hustle etc. would have had him stapled to the bench, out of the lineup or booed out of town in most markets.
He should have had a lot of points as he continued to still get prime PP minutes and regular ice time.

I'm sure KFC, Ehlers, PLD etc. do not want him back.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

You were talking about NOT playing Ehlers - Scheif - Wheeler. I pointed out that Ehlers was being used at RW making that unavailable. You countered with the availability of Svech to play RW. I replied that Ehlers at RW went back further than this season. Not a point. Just a fact.

We worked around to your proposed top 6, which you called one of the best in the league. I pointed out that 3 of your 4 wingers were quite small. You countered that by saying another winger who was not in your top 6 was big and so were the C's - which does not change the fact that 3 of your 4 wingers were small.

So your "one of the best top 6's in the league" had 3 small guys and 3 defensively challenged big guys.

That said, I don't disagree that Ehlers - Scheif - Wheeler was a good option that was abandoned for no apparent reason. That top 6 could have been pretty good, though flawed.

I am still not fully sure what your point is, I'll be honest.

I don't see Kyle Connor as 'small' and yes svech did play in our top 6 so that addressed the options when you somehow said it was impossible to move ehlers to LW

yes I did think that youw ere talking about scheifs defensive woes going back further than this season

And I'm not sure what you think a top six is? You think drai, mcD, Kane, nuge are defensively sound? Do you want Lowry in our top six?

If trotz got ahold of that top six, we would absolutely be a deep run playoff team.

 

[gojetsgo]

When 55 is repeatedly called out for his lack of effort by other commentators the truth is apparent.
His lack of back checking, constant giveaways, little hustle etc. would have had him stapled to the bench, out of the lineup or booed out of town in most markets.
He should have had a lot of points as he continued to still get prime PP minutes and regular ice time.

I'm sure KFC, Ehlers, PLD etc. do not want him back.

you are not sure, you are speculating, you can't be sure because you don't know them personally...

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I am still not fully sure what your point is, I'll be honest.

I don't see Kyle Connor as 'small' and yes svech did play in our top 6 so that addressed the options when you somehow said it was impossible to move ehlers to LW

yes I did think that youw ere talking about scheifs defensive woes going back further than this season

And I'm not sure what you think a top six is? You think drai, mcD, Kane, nuge are defensively sound? Do you want Lowry in our top six?

If trotz got ahold of that top six, we would absolutely be a deep run playoff team.

My point is simply to stick to facts.

Kyle Connor is listed at 182 lbs. That is small for a hockey player, even if he is 6'1. And he plays small.

Svech was NOT IN the top 6 YOU listed and called one of the best in the league. Fact.

I never said it was "impossible" to move Ehlers. Exactly the opposite, in fact. Post #1554, "We could have used Wheeler and Svech and played Ehlers on LW". That might have happened if Perfetti hadn't been injured.

I get that you thought I was referring to Scheif's defensive woes. I could see why, so I clarified that.

What is a top 6? Really? It is the top 2 lines of 3 men each, a LW, a C and a RW. The 6 you listed are below avg defensively, as a unit and individually.

I have no doubt that Trotz would get that top 6 playing better defensively. There is no such thing as absolutely predicting the future. We don't even know how he would deploy the players he would have available.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

My point is simply to stick to facts.

Kyle Connor is listed at 182 lbs. That is small for a hockey player, even if he is 6'1. And he plays small.

Svech was NOT IN the top 6 YOU listed and called one of the best in the league. Fact.

I never said it was "impossible" to move Ehlers. Exactly the opposite, in fact. Post #1554, "We could have used Wheeler and Svech and played Ehlers on LW". That might have happened if Perfetti hadn't been injured.

I get that you thought I was referring to Scheif's defensive woes. I could see why, so I clarified that.

What is a top 6? Really? It is the top 2 lines of 3 men each, a LW, a C and a RW. The 6 you listed are below avg defensively, as a unit and individually.

I have no doubt that Trotz would get that top 6 playing better defensively. There is no such thing as absolutely predicting the future. We don't even know how he would deploy the players he would have available.

But what exactly is your point beside semantics? I honestly don't get it - you said that top six would not work.because small wingers and bad defence but then also it would work. I mean panarin, strome and vatrano seem to be doing okay.

I honestly have no real idea what you are arguing. My initial point involves scheif and Wheelers corsi being a lot better with ehlers - you said that line was never used because we were short of RW... I don't think that's the main reason.

Then you kind of conclude that there's no way to know if our D will improve under trotz because we can't predict the future... aside from every team he's ever coached improving their defensive structure....

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

But what exactly is your point beside semantics? I honestly don't get it - you said that top six would not work.because small wingers and bad defence but then also it would work. I mean panarin, strome and vatrano seem to be doing okay.

I honestly have no real idea what you are arguing. My initial point involves scheif and Wheelers corsi being a lot better with ehlers - you said that line was never used because we were short of RW... I don't think that's the main reason.

Then you kind of conclude that there's no way to know if our D will improve under trotz because we can't predict the future... aside from every team he's ever coached improving their defensive structure....

I'm not sure I even remember anymore, TBH.
I keep having to respond to you saying I said things I didn't say.
I didn't say that top 6 wouldn't work. I pointed out some flaws in it. The centres are weak defensively. The wingers are small.

I like Ehlers - Scheif - Wheels ..... IF Scheifele and Wheeler will play a little defence. Big if.
I liked KFC - PLD - Svech ........ IF Svech can maintain his good play.

That leaves Perfetti out in the cold. I don't like him at RW but he is a lot more skilled than Svech. If Svech regresses, Perfetti would be better there.

When Ehlers was given that job, we didn't have anyone else to play there. We did not have Svech or Perfetti. There seemed to be some inertia to moving him back to LW, despite him being a LHS. Not my choice. That is what happened. This last year we had Wheeler out of the lineup, so Ehlers had to stay at RW. Then we had Perfetti out of the lineup. So again, Ehlers is at RW. We could have used Svech there. It worked well when it was done but coaches didn't seem to like it. Again, not my choice.

What I am arguing is you putting words in my mouth. I didn't say most of the things you seem to think I said.

Again something I didn't say, "there's no way to know if our D will improve under trotz because we can't predict the future". That is not what I said. You used the word absolutely. That's not semantics, its just wrong. You can't be absolutely certain. I'm confident our D will improve under Trotz. I don't know whether that will lead to a deep PO run or not. I'm pretty sure it will get our foot in the door, but I can't be absolutely certain of even that.

 

[bennylundholm]

you are not sure, you are speculating, you can't be sure because you don't know them personally...

Oh yes, I am definitely sure.

Can you be sure I am not sure?
I'd say you are not sure but rather speculating that I am sure.

I am sure tired. I better go to bed soon.
Or maybe I am speculating I'm tired.
Not sure.

 

[gojetsgo]

Oh yes, I am definitely sure.

Can you be sure I am not sure?
I'd say you are not sure but rather speculating that I am sure.

I am sure tired. I better go to bed soon.
Or maybe I am speculating I'm tired.
Not sure.

this makes no sense...w/e no point in continuing with this