Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[voyageur]

Scheifele is a good hockey player and i like him but watching him float around at our blue line waiting for a pass and not remotely trying to play defense was very hard to watch. The Jets were 9-1-3 without Scheifele and Wheeler when they were out with Covid then they come back and are put on the 3rd line with Lowry and we are still winning but out of the blue Wheeler is moved to the 1st line and Svech to the 3rd and we lose. Then Scheifele is moved up to the 2nd line and we lose again . Maurice, Scheifele and Wheeler i think were too close and you just can't have that, sort of what you went through at your job, the guys doing the heavy lifting weren't getting recognized.

I just look at it this way. You look at the last 19 games for Evgeni Svetchnikov and he put up 1 goal, was -7.

Mark Scheifele's last 19 games, 9 goals, 16 assists, +3.

And you have guys on these boards saying Scheifele should be shipped out because he gave up on the team, and Svetchnikov should be a 1st line winger.

Call me confused?

 

[Cnile]

I'd be sure the players don't want 55 around after he quit on the team last year. To "hope" he will give more effort next year is fooling ourselves.
Ship him out and get the best return.

This is where I am at as well.
There’d have to be a major change of heart and a redoubled commitment to the team for his teammates to be accepting.
I doubt that happens.
Sometimes you need to get rid of distractions for the good of the majority.
This roster really underachieved and everyone knows it.

 

[voyageur]

I just look at it this way. You look at the last 19 games for Evgeni Svetchnikov and he put up 1 goal, was -7.

Mark Scheifele's last 19 games, 9 goals, 16 assists, +3.

And you have guys on these boards saying Scheifele should be shipped out because he gave up on the team, and Svetchnikov should be a 1st line winger.

Call me confused?

Since we're having a logical discussion, PLD's last 20 games 3 goals 7 assists, -10. And 32 PIM

 

[Jets 31]

I just look at it this way. You look at the last 19 games for Evgeni Svetchnikov and he put up 1 goal, was -7.

Mark Scheifele's last 19 games, 9 goals, 16 assists, +3.

And you have guys on these boards saying Scheifele should be shipped out because he gave up on the team, and Svetchnikov should be a 1st line winger.

Call me confused?

Well Svech was only getting 4 minutes a game after being taken off the line with Dubois and Connor . I would have loved a little more production out of Svech when he played with Dubois and Connor but that line worked well and Dubois and Connor were getting points. Plus Svech never got PP minutes.

 

[Jets 31]

Since we're having a logical discussion, PLD's last 20 games 3 goals 7 assists, -10. And 32 PIM

Ya he wasn't as good down the stretch that's for sure, maybe frustration but ya he faded in the last 20 games.

 

[DRW204]

Since we're having a logical discussion, PLD's last 20 games 3 goals 7 assists, -10. And 32 PIM

People are so quick to anoint pld the 1c he's lacking the offense of the strong 1cs league wide and isn't really a stalwart defensively.
For all the hate and disdainwheeler gets for his pp points.... You'd think the same posters would be commenting the same way on pld since over 50% of his goals on the pp?

 

[FonRiesen]

Playing with Wheeler was part of the problem. Those two couldn't generate any speed through the neutral zone, which they had to do since Scheifele took more d-zone draws than Dubois, and they really struggled together this year. For the record I think Dubois and Connor were pretty good together, having a centre who drove the middle of the ice gave Connor some space. Who knows if Lowry asked Scheif to play the same way, which isn't necessarily his game, as a finisher. But I look at the challenge for our next coach as our best forecheckers are all centres, our wingers are soft, and how do you design a system around that? Most systems do not incorporate a centre as F1.

I'd also look at things this way, I've worked at two different jobs where I was a hero doing all the heavy lifting, and instead of getting recognized, I had company people put in front of me, which bothered me because it wasn't through merit, but towing the line. If you look at how poor Dubois was in the shortened season, really a non factor the promotion is curious. We did have a brief period where 81-80-27 were put together and they had great advanced stats, but -s in their column, for whatever reason, I'd say weak defending. Now Duby gets a promotion as the company guy, since Daddy is the reason he is here. And maybe nepotism isn't such a good thing in the Jets family. Seems like it backfired with Dave Lowry as coach too. Created some controversy.

You nailed it on the head... According to his interview, Schiefele also thinks he's the hero, that everything he's doing is fine, and is better than everyone else - they're the ones that need to improve. He's missing the nuance of the situation.

When I was running a business, my employees who were self-proclaimed heroes without a realistic/humble view of their own faults brought others down, and were my biggest headache, because I needed my whole team to work together. Working hard is fine, but not when it involves arrogance and a refusal to improve (or a reloctance to take instruction) that brings down others' productivity and forces me to waste my time doing extra damage control. There's a big picture involved that these 'heroes' are missing.

Schiefele needs to look in the mirror and consider that his attitude sucks, he's bringing down the team, and it takes a team to win - not individual heroes. I hope that's what he's reflecting on this summer.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Scheifele is a good hockey player and i like him but watching him float around at our blue line waiting for a pass and not remotely trying to play defense was very hard to watch. The Jets were 9-1-3 without Scheifele and Wheeler when they were out with Covid then they come back and are put on the 3rd line with Lowry and we are still winning but out of the blue Wheeler is moved to the 1st line and Svech to the 3rd and we lose. Then Scheifele is moved up to the 2nd line and we lose again . Maurice, Scheifele and Wheeler i think were too close and you just can't have that, sort of what you went through at your job, the guys doing the heavy lifting weren't getting recognized.

Scheifele and Wheeler missed 5 games with Covid, they did go 5-0, three of those wins were from teams below them in the standings and only one team in that stretch (Nashville) actually had a positive goal differential on the season.

You have to put quality of competition into account, they could have easily played significantly better teams and lost all 5 games.

 

[Jets 31]

Scheifele and Wheeler missed 5 games with Covid, they did go 5-0, three of those wins were from teams below them in the standings and only one team in that stretch (Nashville) actually had a positive goal differential on the season.

You have to put quality of competition into account, they could have easily played significantly better teams and lost all 5 games.

Ya but they also won some games with Scheifele and Wheeler on the 3rd line plus as the Jets showed us a few times last season even beating teams below you in the standings isn't always easy.

 

[Heldig]

Since we're having a logical discussion, PLD's last 20 games 3 goals 7 assists, -10. And 32 PIM

OOF.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'd be sure the players don't want 55 around after he quit on the team last year. To "hope" he will give more effort next year is fooling ourselves.
Ship him out and get the best return.

I really can't quite judge that. I may have my suspicions, that's different. Chevy did the exit interviews so presumably he has a handle on that.

Now that Copp is gone, our depth at C isn't great. Subtract Scheifele and it is terrible. Perfetti may, or may not fill the hole.

 

[voyageur]

You nailed it on the head... According to his interview, Schiefele also thinks he's the hero, that everything he's doing is fine, and is better than everyone else - they're the ones that need to improve. He's missing the nuance of the situation.

When I was running a business, my employees who were self-proclaimed heroes without a realistic/humble view of their own faults brought others down, and were my biggest headache, because I needed my whole team to work together. Working hard is fine, but not when it involves arrogance and a refusal to improve (or a reloctance to take instruction) that brings down others' productivity and forces me to waste my time doing extra damage control. There's a big picture involved that these 'heroes' are missing.

Schiefele needs to look in the mirror and consider that his attitude sucks, he's bringing down the team, and it takes a team to win - not individual heroes. I hope that's what he's reflecting on this summer.

Scheifele thinks his game is fine. And by the numbers I posted he finished pretty strong. My hockey pool confirmed this ebb and flow. Makes me wonder looking at the numbers if Stats parting shots were directed at Dubois and Svetch, and not Scheifele, because Scheif produced with Stats. Stats lost his 2c job to Dubois, and PP1 time, and with some injuries we see that Dubois didn't pull his weight at the finish line.

One thing I know is that Dubois and Scheifele probably don't get along, their personalities do seem different.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Ya but they also won some games with Scheifele and Wheeler on the 3rd line plus as the Jets showed us a few times last season even beating teams below you in the standings isn't always easy.

Wheeler and Scheifele played less than two games on third line but weren’t getting third line minutes.

That’s true the Jets did show that beating the teams below you in the standing isn’t always easy but they also showed beating the teams above them in the standing can be easy.

As frustrating as Scheifele was last year this team hasn’t managed to win a single post season game in the two series without Scheifele.

 

[surixon]

Scheifele thinks his game is fine. And by the numbers I posted he finished pretty strong. My hockey pool confirmed this ebb and flow. Makes me wonder looking at the numbers if Stats parting shots were directed at Dubois and Svetch, and not Scheifele, because Scheif produced with Stats. Stats lost his 2c job to Dubois, and PP1 time, and with some injuries we see that Dubois didn't pull his weight at the finish line.

One thing I know is that Dubois and Scheifele probably don't get along, their personalities do seem different.

You are using small samples to try to create a narrative here. All players have ebbs and flows in their production so not surprising Dubois went through a cold stretch or two.

Watching, Dubois continually busted his butt on the ice, stood up for teammates, took a young player in Perfetti under his wing and was a reason for Conner transforming his game.

The response was about people respecting each other and the team and Dubois's on ice actions showed that respect whereas Mark's didn't.

There also isn't any way that the Jets organization joins our best prospect at the hip to a player who is causing significant issues in the room. It should have been telling that Cole was played out of position with Dubois instead of played in a more natural LW position with a player in Mark who's game better fits with his.

Dubois was also willing and often asked to face the media after games and loses. He showed leadership last year.

 

[voyageur]

You are using small samples to try to create a narrative here. All players have ebbs and flows in their production so not surprising Dubois went through a cold stretch or two.

Watching, Dubois continually busted his butt on the ice, stood up for teammates, took a young player in Perfetti under his wing and was a reason for Conner transforming his game.

The response was about people respecting each other and the team and Dubois's on ice actions showed that respect whereas Mark's didn't.

There also isn't any way that the Jets organization joins our best prospect at the hip to a player who is causing significant issues in the room. It should have been telling that Cole was played out of position with Dubois instead of played in a more natural LW position with a player in Mark who's game better fits with his.

Dubois was also willing and often asked to face the media after games and loses. He showed leadership last year.

Ok what significant issues are you talking about? You can't just accuse a player of being a cancer without having something. Where's the scoop? You don't have a damn thing to justify crucifying Scheifele, just you like player X more than player Y.

It's just like all the Wheeler shit talk that came before Scheifele. Bad leader, etc.

When I show stats that the leader you belove shit the bed down the stretch, it's just a small sample size. Same with your supposed 1st line winger. It's pointless having this discussion.

Getting Perfetti on Dubois's line probably came from up top. Since Dubois takes more gravy offensive zone draws, you bring the kid up in a place to succeed. Scheif being the only righty C will take d-zone draws, and maybe the Jets aren't comfortable with Perfetti in that spot, at the very begining of his career. I can think of the one shift Perfetti and Reichel had on Scheif's line in Colorado going in the back of the net, because the kid was slow on the zone clear.

There's always a different perspective. I'm willing to listen to some things, but frankly the narrative on Scheifele has taken on a life of its own.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Scheifele thinks his game is fine. And by the numbers I posted he finished pretty strong. My hockey pool confirmed this ebb and flow. Makes me wonder looking at the numbers if Stats parting shots were directed at Dubois and Svetch, and not Scheifele, because Scheif produced with Stats. Stats lost his 2c job to Dubois, and PP1 time, and with some injuries we see that Dubois didn't pull his weight at the finish line.

One thing I know is that Dubois and Scheifele probably don't get along, their personalities do seem different.

That's some interesting logic... and I dont think you can use 'one thing I know' and 'probably' in the same sentence.

Plus/minus is about the worst stat to base judgement on. And good teams have a mix of talent throughout the lineup... natural stat trick is a good site to look for chemistry.

For example, let's look at our top line...
KFC-PLD-Perfetti looked good even though they didnt always click - but the eye test says there's huge potential
KFC-PLD-Svech - svech doesnt produce as much but he opens space for the other two, purely looking at stats doesn't build a team
KFC-PLD-Wheeler - fancy stats are nice but they didn't score and consistently got scored against

There's a very fair argument to be made that Scheifele's play improved when he was paired with Stas and Ehlers who have proven chemistry. They carried Scheif those last 20 games... without Scheif their corsi, etc is actually better than with him, the same can't be said going the other way.

 

[voyageur]

That's some interesting logic... and I dont think you can use 'one thing I know' and 'probably' in the same sentence.

Plus/minus is about the worst stat to base judgement on. And good teams have a mix of talent throughout the lineup... natural stat trick is a good site to look for chemistry.

For example, let's look at our top line...
KFC-PLD-Perfetti looked good even though they didnt always click - but the eye test says there's huge potential
KFC-PLD-Svech - svech doesnt produce as much but he opens space for the other two, purely looking at stats doesn't build a team
KFC-PLD-Wheeler - fancy stats are nice but they didn't score and consistently got scored against

There's a very fair argument to be made that Scheifele's play improved when he was paired with Stas and Ehlers who have proven chemistry. They carried Scheif those last 20 games... without Scheif their corsi, etc is actually better than with him, the same can't be said going the other way.

I think you have to watch the games man. Scheifele is the big cheese...He doesn't get carried, he carries play. If you don't see that right away I think you're wrong. Yes those two helped, and they work well together. I think the big thing was having Stastny covering more of the middle of the ice, so that Scheifele could play as an attacking winger, because not many guys on this team have the strength and size to win battles and come down with a good shot off the wing. It took away some of his deficiencies, much like Stastny and Ehlers carried Dubois through the playoffs the year before, except Dubois didn't score. I felt like Wheeler's lack of speed, also hampered by injury was one of the things that slowed Scheifele down.

Fancy stats are the worst argument, when you compare a guy that starts in the o-zone almost all the time, never in his own zone, to someone who may be at every end of the rink. Because you're missing the fundamental point, it's easy to generate shots starting inside the zone, than coming from the other zone. Also who leads the team in shots? Not the guy Scheifele was playing with...But I managed to get into this discussion again. There's got to be some grass to mow...somewhere.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Basically...

Scheif reaped huge benefits from Ehler's playdriving capabilities - yet we still don't mention Ehlers AT ALL

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

I think you have to watch the games man. Scheifele is the big cheese...He doesn't get carried, he carries play. If you don't see that right away I think you're wrong. Yes those two helped, and they work well together. I think the big thing was having Stastny covering more of the middle of the ice, so that Scheifele could play as an attacking winger, because not many guys on this team have the strength and size to win battles and come down with a good shot off the wing. It took away some of his deficiencies, much like Stastny and Ehlers carried Dubois through the playoffs the year before, except Dubois didn't score. I felt like Wheeler's lack of speed, also hampered by injury was one of the things that slowed Scheifele down.

Fancy stats are the worst argument, when you compare a guy that starts in the o-zone almost all the time, never in his own zone, to someone who may be at every end of the rink. Because you're missing the fundamental point, it's easy to generate shots starting inside the zone, than coming from the other zone. Also who leads the team in shots? Not the guy Scheifele was playing with...But I managed to get into this discussion again. There's got to be some grass to mow...somewhere.

I guess we will have to disagree... Ehlers has consistently driven play throughout his career and still does. He is an elite winger.

And no fancy stats are not the worst argument... plus/minus is so let's stop using it. Combining corsi and XG with/without players.... at a minimum... gives a good portrait of reality.

Regardless, arguing about 20 games, most of which were meaningless and during that stretch we lost to every team that wasn't also a mess... not the best metric.

I think you are still stuck on who Scheif was four years ago - he's not that player anymore. Trade for someone that can play with Ehlers.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Scheif with/without Wheeler or Ehlers

Link to natural stat trick if you want... there's a legit argument to be made that Wheeler was not dragging Scheif down this season

Also scary to see how the Jets have truly abandoned the Ehlers-Scheif-Wheeler line which always showed really well. That seems more like a personality thing than anything...

 

[surixon]

Ok what significant issues are you talking about? You can't just accuse a player of being a cancer without having something. Where's the scoop? You don't have a damn thing to justify crucifying Scheifele, just you like player X more than player Y.

It's just like all the Wheeler shit talk that came before Scheifele. Bad leader, etc.

When I show stats that the leader you belove shit the bed down the stretch, it's just a small sample size. Same with your supposed 1st line winger. It's pointless having this discussion.

Getting Perfetti on Dubois's line probably came from up top. Since Dubois takes more gravy offensive zone draws, you bring the kid up in a place to succeed. Scheif being the only righty C will take d-zone draws, and maybe the Jets aren't comfortable with Perfetti in that spot, at the very begining of his career. I can think of the one shift Perfetti and Reichel had on Scheif's line in Colorado going in the back of the net, because the kid was slow on the zone clear.

There's always a different perspective. I'm willing to listen to some things, but frankly the narrative on Scheifele has taken on a life of its own.

You were the one who indicated that perhaps Stastny was blasting Dubois. I.e PLD was an issue in the room. My point vis a vis Perfetti was that if Dubois was such an issue in the room they wouldn't have had him mentor Cole, they would have had someone else do it. Yes no doubt the direction came from management.

My arguments were based around the notion that Dubois looked like a player who showed leadership in multiple ways last year that I have a very hard time believing those comments were about him but anything is possible.

Moat everyone and the media believes those comments were about 55. I'm sure they have access to other insights to support that view.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I just look at it this way. You look at the last 19 games for Evgeni Svetchnikov and he put up 1 goal, was -7.

Mark Scheifele's last 19 games, 9 goals, 16 assists, +3.

And you have guys on these boards saying Scheifele should be shipped out because he gave up on the team, and Svetchnikov should be a 1st line winger.

Call me confused?

He definitely played better as the season progressed. He even attempted to play a little D.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Also scary to see how the Jets have truly abandoned the Ehlers-Scheif-Wheeler line which always showed really well. That seems more like a personality thing than anything...

I think that had a lot to do with needing another top 6 RW. Ehlers shoots left but plays the right side well.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

I think that had a lot to do with needing another top 6 RW. Ehlers shoots left but plays the right side well.

Possibly... except we had Perfetti, Wheeler and Svech playing top six right side - there was no reason not to try it out instead of forcing Wheeler onto that line and benching Svech...

I mean if Scheif puts away his ego or we at least get a half decent return
KFC-PLD-Perfetti
Ehlers-Scheif-Wheeler

That's one of the best top sixes in the league....

 

[Teemusalami204]

I just look at it this way. You look at the last 19 games for Evgeni Svetchnikov and he put up 1 goal, was -7.

Mark Scheifele's last 19 games, 9 goals, 16 assists, +3.

And you have guys on these boards saying Scheifele should be shipped out because he gave up on the team, and Svetchnikov should be a 1st line winger.

Call me confused?

I wish there was a stat that shows how many lazy plays defensively account for a goal against.

I bet it would even sheifs point totals out quite a bit.

Doesn’t matter how much you score if your responsible for almost as many