Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[surixon]

I think you only have to look at Calgary last year where Gaudreau and Tkachuk both were called out for giving up on their team, or Pettersson in Vancouver, and you can see how quickly things turn around. Hell Morrissey was getting torched on here, and no one knew he had lost his dad. There's a lot of things around mental health and being in the right head space and be physically healthy that go into a player's success. Just based on the success we've had with Scheifele vs. the abrupt collapses we've had without him, tell me the grass isn't necessarily greener than some paint. That's my last thought. Fans and posters can choose their own heroes and villains.

I am hopeful for a Calgary type bounce back. If he is suffering from some sort of mental health disorder then that could explain it.

 

[kanadalainen]

Scheifele can come back if he's pulled his head out of his ass and is willing to commit to being a team player, that and he smoothes things over with his teammates. Sure he might be talented but if he's despised in the room for his attitude and effort then it's just clear not worth bringing him back. Sell now and move on.

I'm a Winnipeger and have bought season tickets since day 1 and I want nothing to do with the player we saw wearing 55 last year. I don't care what he did for the team up to our high water mark. That is in the past and he's likely been a big reason for our fall from grace as well. I don't see how that matters anyhow, I want the team to win and have little sentimentality to individual players, especially if they perform as he did last year.

Hopefully the exit interview went as Chevy said and he's committed to doing whatever he can to get this team back to the playoffs and on from there. If not move him out. Even of he is I take a long look at what offers are out there.

To the bolded -> its possible that the Calgary brass would love to get their mitts on Scheifele.

 

[Volica]

To the bolded -> its possible that the Calgary brass would love to get their mitts on Scheifele.

Flames fan coming in peace.
This would be an understatement. Flames brass had Scheifele circled in the 2011 draft hoping he'd still be there at 13, and a guy I know within the org is viewed very positively.

What would that trade look like in your guys' eyes? Calgary is in desperate need of a top 6 centre that can be an offensive threat, we're fine with his defensive play just because the rest of the team is essentially built with responsible two-way forwards.

 

[Romang67]

Dubois isn't a 200 ft player either, which is my point.

Seems like we win with Scheifele healthy, 2018, with 14 goals, 2021 (round1); and lose without him, injured Scheifele (2020) and suspended by the league (2021,round 2). In 2019 your countryman Hagelin I am sure injured him before the playoffs.

So the team is better with him, and at no point have we seen Dubois pick up the slack. 60 points with Connor as your winger, and more gravy offensive zone time, is a bit of a disappointment, by my standards. Especially when the bulk of the goals come on the PP, and you have the same goal scoring per 60 as Adam Lowry who starts on the other end of the ice, and gets beat like horse around here for lack of production.

I know Scheifele's weaknesses, I think we all do. But Jesus the guy is a real good hockey player who likes matching up with the best. Only last year did he not match up in any way.

I think he'll be more valuable if he has a 90 point, 35 goal season, which he is capable of, than last year's mess. And I don't think it's beyond his realm. I don't think that will translate into another contract here, as I think he's ready to move on. But I expect 55 to be a professional. I'm still glad Chevy drafted him, on Ducky's word. That's the kind of sentimentality that you may not get, but that's the not the point.

Dubois isn't a 200 ft player. Scheifele has literally been one of the absolute worst defensive forwards in the league over the past 3.5 seasons. They aren't comparable. Dubois dipped toward the end of the season and ended up with a 52.4% xGF% on the year, which had him 3rd among forwards after Ehlers and Stastny. Scheifele ended up with his best result in 4 years, at 48.3%. This past season wasn't an outlier year in terms of not giving the least bit of a shit on the defensive end for Scheifele. It was a continuation of what he has done ever since that 2018 playoffs which he apparently is still living off of.

If Scheifele has the ability to perform to make the team much better, that is part of the problem. That means he has deliberately chosen to, with an A on his jersey, not put in the effort all over the ice over the past 3.5 seasons. That alone is enough for me to want to ship him out. Big #1Cs having value around the league, and the inherent danger in paying big money for a player on the wrong side of 30 who evidently has massive issues with motivation just makes it more attractive to ship him out instead of:

a) Letting him walk in FA in 2 years.
or
b) Paying for him well into his 30s.

55 hasn't been a professional for us in the past few years. Did you hear his end of year presser? Where he talked about how he needed to discuss with his agent and family about the future with 2 years left on his contract and an A on his jersey? Why would he be a professional about this all of a sudden?

This is not a 1 year thing. This has been brewing since 2019. That's 3.5 years ago. He has been this way for us since the year after Connor's rookie year. This isn't recent.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It’s bad
Get him out of here
f*** him, there’s many others here who care

Don't exactly disagree - except that I'm not sure how bad he has really gotten to be.

I think Covid affected his play for quite a while after he returned. That was when his play was at its worst. He gradually improved all season, even defensively.

I didn't like the tone of his public statement at the end of the season, but that was on the emotion of the moment. IF he changed his tune in the exit interview with Chevy and IF he is prepared to play the system brought in by the new coach he will be better than what we are likely to get in trade.

I am still concerned about his next contract though. If Chevy can get the right return, I still support trading him. But if the return is not right, then I would keep him.

 

[kanadalainen]

Flames fan coming in peace.
This would be an understatement. Flames brass had Scheifele circled in the 2011 draft hoping he'd still be there at 13, and a guy I know within the org is viewed very positively.

What would that trade look like in your guys' eyes? Calgary is in desperate need of a top 6 centre that can be an offensive threat, we're fine with his defensive play just because the rest of the team is essentially built with responsible two-way forwards.

Speculation and overt bartering for players and trades is well beyond my expertise, but the team could use a decent RHD and personally, I like Andersson plus + _____. YMMV

 

[Huffer]

Speculation and overt bartering for players and trades is well beyond my expertise, but the team could use a decent RHD and personally, I like Andersson plus + _____. YMMV

For me I think if Calgary is looking to add Scheif then they want to continue to try and win now, so I can't see them moving Andersson.

With Calgary, personally I'd be looking for a top prospect like Pelletier, Mangiapane (if a contract can be worked out), and a 2023 1st. (Prospect/Roster player/1st).

The Jets would have to fill a top 6 C spot with either Perfetti, Stas (if signed), or possibly try to find another one in the market. Adding Mangiapane and Pelletier would help the top 6/9 though.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Flames fan coming in peace.
This would be an understatement. Flames brass had Scheifele circled in the 2011 draft hoping he'd still be there at 13, and a guy I know within the org is viewed very positively.

What would that trade look like in your guys' eyes? Calgary is in desperate need of a top 6 centre that can be an offensive threat, we're fine with his defensive play just because the rest of the team is essentially built with responsible two-way forwards.

Rasmus andersson straight up

 

[tbcwpg]

Don't exactly disagree - except that I'm not sure how bad he has really gotten to be.

I think Covid affected his play for quite a while after he returned. That was when his play was at its worst. He gradually improved all season, even defensively.

I didn't like the tone of his public statement at the end of the season, but that was on the emotion of the moment. IF he changed his tune in the exit interview with Chevy and IF he is prepared to play the system brought in by the new coach he will be better than what we are likely to get in trade.

I am still concerned about his next contract though. If Chevy can get the right return, I still support trading him. But if the return is not right, then I would keep him.

I'm coming around to the idea that his statement at the end of the season was more about whether they plan to win now or take a step back and less about his own ice time etc. From the sounds of comments from Adam Lowry, and then recently Comrie on the Illegal Curve show that they took awhile to see Dave as a head coach, I can believe that the team felt that there wasn't a commitment to winning this year. I definitely don't agree with his unfathomably bad effort playing defensively, but I don't think the issues are as bad as we originally thought, and the situation is salvagable.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I don't know how you can't see the writing on the wall.

Only one guy, the Captain, technically 2 if you count Toby, has signed on to finish their career here. I guess you could add Buff and Little too...

The big acheivement for Chevy was getting Scheifele first to sign beyond his 7 year window, then Helly, Josh, Nik, and Connor. And then Lowry. Two of those are expiring, and Winnipeg is looking more and more like a festering shit hole as time goes on. Do you really expect guys to go the distance here?

I'm sorry but for a team that can't attract free agents, why wouldn't Scheifele and Hellebuyck want to go somewhere they believe they can win. I mean Copp didn't sign long term, probably for that very reason.

Start losing the core, it's a rebuild, because the Jets are going to struggle on a one off trade, with pending UFAs, so it's likely younger pieces and picks, like the Kane trade, which was part of a rebuild, minus a gratitious playoff appearance.

Positive spin, or negative spin, on the same facts.

IF Your view is correct then the trading needs to start now with Scheifele, Wheeler AND Helle. PLD needs to go too unless he will sign here long term to be a building block. Dillon and Schmidt also need to go.

 

[Volica]

Rasmus andersson straight up

I don't think Calgary would be in a position to move what is essentially their #1D who's signed to one of the best deals in the league; even for a clear upgrade down the middle. That defensive group needs to add rather that subtract.

 

[Volica]

For me I think if Calgary is looking to add Scheif then they want to continue to try and win now, so I can't see them moving Andersson.

With Calgary, personally I'd be looking for a top prospect like Pelletier or Zary, Mangiapane (if a contract can be worked out), and a 2023 1st. (Prospect/Roster player/1st).

The Jets would have to fill a top 6 C spot with either Perfetti, Stas (if signed), or possibly try to find another one in the market. Adding Mangiapane and Pelletier would help the top 6/9 though.

Yeah I kind of figure this is how it'd look.
Personally, I don't think you'd get a first and top prospect on top of Andrew Mangiapane. Some of the best underlying numbers guy in the league who also just scored 35 goals in a shutdown role. He's Arb eligible, but in no way would sign a QO; the likelihood would be he'd be a long-term signing guy at his age and production.

 

[Huffer]

Yeah I kind of figure this is how it'd look.
Personally, I don't think you'd get a first and top prospect on top of Andrew Mangiapane. Some of the best underlying numbers guy in the league who also just scored 35 goals in a shutdown role. He's Arb eligible, but in no way would sign a QO; the likelihood would be he'd be a long-term signing guy at his age and production.

Possibly. Mangiapane will be a tough new contract IMO. Just had a big career year. The Jets could get a 1st and a prospect for Scheifele at the 2024 trade deadline, so I think a team would need to provide a premium on top of that to get him for a season and a half more. Especially with his excellent contract too.

 

[surixon]

I'm coming around to the idea that his statement at the end of the season was more about whether they plan to win now or take a step back and less about his own ice time etc. From the sounds of comments from Adam Lowry, and then recently Comrie on the Illegal Curve show that they took awhile to see Dave as a head coach, I can believe that the team felt that there wasn't a commitment to winning this year. I definitely don't agree with his unfathomably bad effort playing defensively, but I don't think the issues are as bad as we originally thought, and the situation is salvagable.

Sure there wasn't a commitment to win spending over the cap and bringing players in to plug weaknesses...... These guys have noone to blame but themselves if they pouted instead of listened to Lowry. What a joke....

 

[jamiebez]

Yeah I kind of figure this is how it'd look.
Personally, I don't think you'd get a first and top prospect on top of Andrew Mangiapane. Some of the best underlying numbers guy in the league who also just scored 35 goals in a shutdown role. He's Arb eligible, but in no way would sign a QO; the likelihood would be he'd be a long-term signing guy at his age and production.

Yeah, we are trying to squeeze you guys a bit here

My assumption is you guys would be after Scheifele to replace Gaudreau, and then try and bring back both Mangiapane and Tkachuk, right? If Andersson's also off the table, it doesn't feel like a trade is possible that makes both teams happy.

Jets have said they're still trying to win, so just trading Scheifele for picks + prospects is likely not happening. I'll think they will need at least a 2nd line C or top-pair defenseman back.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Yeah, we are trying to squeeze you guys a bit here

My assumption is you guys would be after Scheifele to replace Gaudreau, and then try and bring back both Mangiapane and Tkachuk, right? If Andersson's also off the table, it doesn't feel like a trade is possible that makes both teams happy.

Jets have said they're still trying to win, so just trading Scheifele for picks + prospects is likely not happening. I'll think they will need at least a 2nd line C or top-pair defenseman back.

After we sign Gaudreau in free agency, we might be able to trade Scheif for picks...

 

[Huffer]

Yeah, we are trying to squeeze you guys a bit here

My assumption is you guys would be after Scheifele to replace Gaudreau, and then try and bring back both Mangiapane and Tkachuk, right? If Andersson's also off the table, it doesn't feel like a trade is possible that makes both teams happy.

Jets have said they're still trying to win, so just trading Scheifele for picks + prospects is likely not happening. I'll think they will need at least a 2nd line C or top-pair defenseman back.

The Jets can still compete though if they traded Scheifele for picks and prospects.

They just have to use other pieces and the newly available cap space to acquire another piece.

I doubt they go down that road, but it is possible.

 

[tbcwpg]

Sure there wasn't a commitment to win spending over the cap and bringing players in to plug weaknesses...... These guys have noone to blame but themselves if they pouted instead of listened to Lowry. What a joke....

I think this was more after Maurice left. Scheifele's effort took a nose dive under Lowry. He's never going to win the Selke but I think he's not the only one weighing their future here depending on the coaching hire.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Look you made it clear you don't like the player. And you have your opinions of him. I'd argue that no player has brought the Jets to greater success than 55 and you'd have a hard time arguing against that. So we'll just disagree.

I think almost everyone would agree with the bolded. It might even be unanimous. But none of that came this year. Little of it came in the 2 seasons preceding this one.

 

[surixon]

I think this was more after Maurice left. Scheifele's effort took a nose dive under Lowry. He's never going to win the Selke but I think he's not the only one weighing their future here depending on the coaching hire.

To me it's as Morrissey said, to paraphrase sure it was surprising but coaching changes happen and it shouldn't impact the team.

I have to say I'm very disappointed that Moe walking pretty much caused players in this group to take their ball and go home. It says a lot about the players imo.

You'd think these guys would realize that teams have won the cup promoting an assistant coach to interim head coach. Look at Edmonton this year moving to their farm coach, they bought in and are in the WCF.

What a sad and entitled buch this group is that they needed a certain coach to be brought in after Moe walked.

 

[gojetsgo]

To me it's as Morrissey said, to paraphrase sure it was surprising but coaching changes happen and it shouldn't impact the team.

I have to say I'm very disappointed that Moe walking pretty much caused players in this group to take their ball and go home. It says a lot about the players imo.

You'd think these guys would realize that teams have won the cup promoting an assistant coach to interim head coach. Look at Edmonton this year moving to their farm coach, they bought in and are in the WCF.

What a sad and entitled buch this group is that they needed a certain coach to be brought in after Moe walked.

how many of those assistant coaches kept pretty much everything the same as the old coach? most give their team a new direction/ new life, lowry kept it the same old same old and things stayed stale

 

[surixon]

how many of those assistant coaches kept pretty much everything the same as the old coach? most give their team a new direction/ new life, lowry kept it the same old same old and things stayed stale

I won't disagree with that and I am not letting Lowry off the hook for imo not very good coaching.

But from the sounds of things with Comrie and Lowry some had their mind made up from the beginninsoand saw it as giving up on the season. That to me is a massive player character issue.

So if we can't get Trotz and elect to go with a younger coach is this same group going to pout about that and want out because the org "Isn't serious about winning"

 

[Volica]

Yeah, we are trying to squeeze you guys a bit here

My assumption is you guys would be after Scheifele to replace Gaudreau, and then try and bring back both Mangiapane and Tkachuk, right? If Andersson's also off the table, it doesn't feel like a trade is possible that makes both teams happy.

Jets have said they're still trying to win, so just trading Scheifele for picks + prospects is likely not happening. I'll think they will need at least a 2nd line C or top-pair defenseman back.

I think Calgary would only look at Scheifele if Gaudreau is in the mix.
It became abundantly clear (which has been the case for what seems like decades) in the playoffs that not having centre depth that can actually do something offensively was a massive issue. Yes, Markstrom imploded, but Calgary's third line centre had all of one goal as a Flame, and then 2-4C are used more in defensive roles.

Calgary desperately needs a more balanced lineup. They got 35 from Mangiapane, the second line centre had 39 points total in a modern record scoring year.

 

[None]

Sure there wasn't a commitment to win spending over the cap and bringing players in to plug weaknesses...... These guys have noone to blame but themselves if they pouted instead of listened to Lowry. What a joke....

And it's not like the play was so much worse under Lowry than Maurice either. If Lowry was considered throwing the season away then how much respect could those players have possibly had for Paul Maurice? Garbage hockey under Paul and garbage hockey under Dave.

The direction this conversation is going is just convincing me that this team needs a major shakeup to the core group of players.

 

[gojetsgo]

I won't disagree with that and I am not letting Lowry off the hook for imo not very good coaching.

But from the sounds of things with Comrie and Lowry some had their mind made up from the beginninsoand saw it as giving up on the season. That to me is a massive player character issue.

So if we can't get Trotz and elect to go with a younger coach is this same group going to pout about that and want out because the org "Isn't serious about winning"

I think it's more likely they only viewed lowry as an assistant coach because instead of putting his own voice/direction on this team he kept it the status quo, multiple players called out coaching this year so it seems likely they really wanted change.

I don't think players just instantly gave up when maurice stepped down, I think players just got extremely frustrated running the same system that weren't working, bring a new voice in who can provide that change and I feel the players will be on board