Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[surixon]

I don't know how you can't see the writing on the wall.

Only one guy, the Captain, technically 2 if you count Toby, has signed on to finish their career here. I guess you could add Buff and Little too...

The big acheivement for Chevy was getting Scheifele first to sign beyond his 7 year window, then Helly, Josh, Nik, and Connor. And then Lowry. Two of those are expiring, and Winnipeg is looking more and more like a festering shit hole as time goes on. Do you really expect guys to go the distance here?

I'm sorry but for a team that can't attract free agents, why wouldn't Scheifele and Hellebuyck want to go somewhere they believe they can win. I mean Copp didn't sign long term, probably for that very reason.

Start losing the core, it's a rebuild, because the Jets are going to struggle on a one off trade, with pending UFAs, so it's likely younger pieces and picks, like the Kane trade, which was part of a rebuild, minus a gratitious playoff appearance.

Very few players go front to back with one organization in their career so not sure what you are getting at with this point.

Also if it's a festering shit hole like you said why would we bring back players that have contributed to making this such a shit hole. From what we heard from a well respected vet in Paul Mark was a major problem in the room.

Also we've heard from enough players that plenty of them care about this org and want to turn it around here. Conner, Ehlers, Morrissey, Lowry to name a few. You get Dubois to commit and you graduate Cole and Ville and you have the makings of your next core. From what we heard the younger group wants the responsibility so I don't see a rebuild so much as a minor retool.

Add in pieces from a Scheifele deal and that also adds to it if you get a Poluck or something akin back.

 

[macmaroon]

As for Scheifele, you see he's down in California with Comrie right now. And Comrie is talking like re-signing with the Jets is a priority for him. So that's a sign right there that maybe Mr. Scheif isn't as peeved as he was end of year.

Maybe Comrie is his only friend left on the team... Comrie really does like everybody...

 

[voyageur]

Very few players go front to back with one organization in their career so not sure what you are getting at with this point.

Also if it's a festering shit hole like you said why would we bring back players that have contributed to making this such a shit hole. From what we heard from a well respected vet in Paul Mark was a major problem in the room.

Also we've heard from enough players that plenty of them care about this org and want to turn it around here. Conner, Ehlers, Morrissey, Lowry to name a few. You get Dubois to commit and you graduate Cole and Ville and you have the makings of your next core. From what we heard the younger group wants the responsibility so I don't see a rebuild so much as a minor retool.

Add in pieces from a Scheifele deal and that also adds to it if you get a Poluck or something akin back.

I do think you make some valid points here.

I agree that Stats probably wasn't impressed with Scheifele's play this year. Nobody was, but nobody has carried this team on his back like 55. So Stats may have got some parting shots in, but I think there's still some respect for Scheifele and his skill level, and commitment to training that has some friends.

As for the core. Yes we have some star power with Duby, Connor, Ehlers, and potentially Perfetti. Morrissey, De Melo, and Pionk as defensive leaders. We have the making of a good defense with development. Maybe missing that piece that's been missing since we lost the edge at RD.

So much depends on what the future of Scheifele, Hellebuyck, De Melo and Dillon is in Winnipeg. If none of those guys want to come back, the replacements aren't in the system, though you could argue Samberg can replace Dillon in many ways, except toughness. Then there is Wheeler who is probably not replaceable through trade, maybe a futures trade in his final season. When you look at taking those guys out, potentially, add Copp and Stastny, potentially, to the departures from solid teams, and you haven't put much currency in through the draft, I think there is going to be a reset at some point. How long it takes will depend on the draft and development of players in my opinion.

Can the Jets retool through trade? Getting Pulock back on Scheifele makes us worse, and makes no sense for the Isles who have decent centres 1-4, and only Dobson as a legitimate top 4 d-man behind Pulock. Sounds more like wishful thinking.

Which is what Trotz is. Especially if you consider how much he has favoured veteran lineups in his time in Washington and New York, at the expense of development, which is exactly what the Jets need, and will need more of if we are to get these young players to the next level. Your suggestion of Pascal Vincent as a head coach, makes more sense in that respect, to me.

 

[surixon]

I do think you make some valid points here.

I agree that Stats probably wasn't impressed with Scheifele's play this year. Nobody was, but nobody has carried this team on his back like 55. So Stats may have got some parting shots in, but I think there's still some respect for Scheifele and his skill level, and commitment to training that has some friends.

As for the core. Yes we have some star power with Duby, Connor, Ehlers, and potentially Perfetti. Morrissey, De Melo, and Pionk as defensive leaders. We have the making of a good defense with development. Maybe missing that piece that's been missing since we lost the edge at RD.

So much depends on what the future of Scheifele, Hellebuyck, De Melo and Dillon is in Winnipeg. If none of those guys want to come back, the replacements aren't in the system, though you could argue Samberg can replace Dillon in many ways, except toughness. Then there is Wheeler who is probably not replaceable through trade, maybe a futures trade in his final season. When you look at taking those guys out, potentially, add Copp and Stastny, potentially, to the departures from solid teams, and you haven't put much currency in through the draft, I think there is going to be a reset at some point. How long it takes will depend on the draft and development of players in my opinion.

Can the Jets retool through trade? Getting Pulock back on Scheifele makes us worse, and makes no sense for the Isles who have decent centres 1-4, and only Dobson as a legitimate top 4 d-man behind Pulock. Sounds more like wishful thinking.

Which is what Trotz is. Especially if you consider how much he has favoured veteran lineups in his time in Washington and New York, at the expense of development, which is exactly what the Jets need, and will need more of if we are to get these young players to the next level. Your suggestion of Pascal Vincent as a head coach, makes more sense in that respect, to me.

I think to a man everyone in that room knows what Scheifele is capable of which is probably why there was so much anger directed his way. They saw what should have been their defacto best player mail it in and in essence give up on them. They then had to hear him spew a buch of nonsense to press about how it's all about him and everyone else needed to solve the problems.

I'd be downright livid if I was his teammate. Now maybe things have gotten sorted out behind the scenes with some of his teammates but I can fully appreciate why some things that were said got said.

With regards to the rest, I agree that so much really hinges upon what they elect to do with Mark. Can they bring him back and have a healthy dressing room (best case scenario for short term results). If they feel they need to trade him, what pieces do they get back for him and how does that impact the competitiveness of the club both short and medium term. My Poluck trade was just an example, if it doesn't work for NYI then see what else is out there.

As far as coaching, I believe that Chevy would have discussed with Trotz the need to integrate our top young talent to help move this thing forward. It's not like he hasn't done that though, he integrated and developed Dobson into a top pairing RD. He developed Kunetsov, Orlov, Wilson, and some others in Washington. So he isn't against playing young talented players.

But I do think the young up and coming head coach with a very experienced assistant coach in Arniel might be the better way to go if you are looking more at a 4 to 5 year window where your building more around the JoMo and younger core. I like Vincent/Lalonde/Carbary for that more then Trotz.

I do think Trotz coming here is more of a long shot with some of the other markets after him. I don't want to see it but my gut says he's in Florida or Vegas next year.

 

[Duke749]

Dubois isn't a 200 ft player either, which is my point.

Downplaying Dubois’s play as much as possible to justify Scheif’s me first, selfish, lazy play as a leader is a hell of an argument, that’s for sure.

 

[voyageur]

I think to a man everyone in that room knows what Scheifele is capable of which is probably why there was so much anger directed his way. They saw what should have been their defacto best player mail it in and in essence give up on them. They then had to hear him spew a buch of nonsense to press about how it's all about him and everyone else needed to solve the problems.

I'd be downright livid if I was his teammate. Now maybe things have gotten sorted out behind the scenes with some of his teammates but I can fully appreciate why some things that were said got said.

With regards to the rest, I agree that so much really hinges upon what they elect to do with Mark. Can they bring him back and have a healthy dressing room (best case scenario for short term results). If they feel they need to trade him, what pieces do they get back for him and how does that impact the competitiveness of the club both short and medium term. My Poluck trade was just an example, if it doesn't work for NYI then see what else is out there.

As far as coaching, I believe that Chevy would have discussed with Trotz the need to integrate our top young talent to help move this thing forward. It's not like he hasn't done that though, he integrated and developed Dobson into a top pairing RD. He developed Kunetsov, Orlov, Wilson, and some others in Washington. So he isn't against playing young talented players.

But I do think the young up and coming head coach with a very experienced assistant coach in Arniel might be the better way to go if you are looking more at a 4 to 5 year window where your building more around the JoMo and younger core. I like Vincent/Lalonde/Carbary for that more then Trotz.

I do think Trotz coming here is more of a long shot with some of the other markets after him. I don't want to see it but my gut says he's in Florida or Vegas next year.

I just don't know Sur, I mean Stats is the guy who recruited Schmidt, who didn't want to come here, to join the group, saying there are good things going on here. Coming off a season where the Jets probably felt good about where they are at, in spite of the Montreal loss, which was directly the result of Scheif's suspension. And starting 9-3-3. Schmidt wasn't exactly part of the solution, so there's a lot of places where blame can be laid. Seems like Scheifele with greatest expectations, and very mediocre results, and I saw the same things as everyone else here, like the flyby in OT vs. Washington, has earned the greatest amount of vitriol. By the same token our starting goalie didn't make as many big saves, but he seems to have a got a pass. I'm not sure where to lay the blame on a failed season.

I just watched a documentary on Tony Dungy and the 2007 Super Bowl Colts, who couldn't get over the hump, and he was very adamant about not letting the outside criticism being fuelled from the inside. So I think that's part of what lies ahead. Getting the team to believe in itself and its coaching staff.

My perfect scenario is getting Trotz, and bringing Shae Weber out of retirement too, a leader that makes his teammates better. And a guy who you don't want to piss off, some of that piss and vinegar that worked with Buff, amid a fractured dressing room.

I just don't see it happening.

 

[voyageur]

Downplaying Dubois’s play as much as possible to justify Scheif’s me first, selfish, lazy play as a leader is a hell of an argument, that’s for sure.

I think it's funny how much Dubois gets a pass for tendencies that are similar to Scheifele's defensively...We haven't been able to establish Dubois as a defensive zone faceoff guy, because of deficiencies, but keep piling on the guy who outscored him this year, without a top 10 scorer on his wing. It's the shiny new toy syndrome, in my opinion. We can disagree, but I have a feeling that the same conversation will rehash itself in a few years, with a different player at the centre of it.

 

[Guffman]

I don’t think we’re at a Doom and Gloom, tear this team down mode. We really just had one stinker of a year (it happens) but we do have a lot of skill on this team at various important positions. That’s why we were guzzling Kool-Aid last offseason thinking that this team would be legit.

The Jets are very capable of having a strong comeback. I actually expect it provided our coaching staff is suitably upgraded.

Yes, there will be player adjustments and possibly a core piece traded but this is still a good, youngish vet team. I think this gets sorted and if a player does not buy into that (possibly Schiefele), then I hope we trade him.

 

[Guffman]

I think it's funny how much Dubois gets a pass for tendencies that are similar to Scheifele's defensively...We haven't been able to establish Dubois as a defensive zone faceoff guy, because of deficiencies, but keep piling on the guy who outscored him this year, without a top 10 scorer on his wing. It's the shiny new toy syndrome, in my opinion. We can disagree, but I have a feeling that the same conversation will rehash itself in a few years, with a different player at the centre of it.

I wouldn’t mind reviewing these players under the lens of a new coach/system before we say any of these guys are not salvagable defensively. Schiefele, for example, is fully capable of being a much better two-way player (e.g., versus Edmonton in the playoffs).

Hopefully, “accountability” resets the mindset of a few players.

 

[Duke749]

I think it's funny how much Dubois gets a pass for tendencies that are similar to Scheifele's defensively...We haven't been able to establish Dubois as a defensive zone faceoff guy, because of deficiencies, but keep piling on the guy who outscored him this year, without a top 10 scorer on his wing. It's the shiny new toy syndrome, in my opinion. We can disagree, but I have a feeling that the same conversation will rehash itself in a few years, with a different player at the centre of it.

They’re not even close. One gives effort while the other mails it in yet you’re looking for every excuse to give Scheif a pass. THAT’S everyone’s point. Everyone knows he can put up points and isn’t good defensively but it’s all come down to effort. You CAN NOT have that from a guy that wears a letter.

 

[voyageur]

They’re not even close. One gives effort while the other mails it in yet you’re looking for every excuse to give Scheif a pass. THAT’S everyone’s point. Everyone knows he can put up points and isn’t good defensively but it’s all come down to effort. You CAN NOT have that from a guy that wears a letter.

Maurice was able to get Scheifele to play top matchups, and he was adequate. We know he can play the whole rink, but he cheats offensively, which is why I suggested at some point to make him a winger. Maybe that would have happened sooner if we didn't lose Bryan Little, given that Laine would have still wanted out.
But I don't know how you didn't notice that Dubois loses coverage in the d-zone pretty easily, not that he has that much responsibility because he usually starts from the blue line out, on account of being poor on faceoffs. The other thing about PLD is he gets himself out of position trying to be physical.

To me Adam Lowry is the one and only guy who we have now, with Copp gone, and Stats probably leaving, though Stastny wasn't at centre much this year, with Duby's promotion, that plays a game that supports our defense. He doesn't cheat, and he has very strong awareness, of situational play.

I'm hoping Gustafsson can step up, as he has some Lowry like tendencies, and then we have two offensive minded centres, two defensive minded. Still missing the RH defensive zone draw, which is a role that Scheifele has taken for quite a few years now. I think Riley Nash was supposed to be that guy last year, but that didn't go well.

Just watching Mc David last night trying to cover Colorado's speed tells me that there is no perfect player. Maybe Patrice Bergeron, but he's getting old.

 

[Duke749]

Effort. Effort. Effort.​

​

Selfishness. Selfishness. Selfishness. ​

​

Me first. Me first. Me first. ​

Idk how much more i can dumb this down but this is what it all comes down too more then anything. No matter how many different ways one wants to argue it, it all comes down to this. The rest just becomes noise.

 

[voyageur]

Effort. Effort. Effort.​

​

Selfishness. Selfishness. Selfishness. ​

​

Me first. Me first. Me first. ​

Idk how much more i can dumb this down but this is what it all comes down too more then anything. No matter how many different ways one wants to argue it, it all comes down to this. The rest just becomes noise.

Look you made it clear you don't like the player. And you have your opinions of him. I'd argue that no player has brought the Jets to greater success than 55 and you'd have a hard time arguing against that. So we'll just disagree.

 

[Duke749]

Look you made it clear you don't like the player. And you have your opinions of him. I'd argue that no player has brought the Jets to greater success than 55 and you'd have a hard time arguing against that. So we'll just disagree.

I don’t dislike the player. I dislike his attitude and effort. Somehow you still missed that point when i put it into big bold letters. I guess there’s your reality and then, well other’s…

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Winnipeg Jets general manager Kevin Cheveldayoff said Tuesday he expects Mark Scheifele to remain with the team this off-season, after rumours previously swirled after the forward's future.

"Yeah, I do," Cheveldayoff told NHL.com. "My exit interview with Mark went well. Again, it was an emotional time for everybody. We asked [our players] to wear their emotions in the exits, and I think they were very productive."

Scheifele expected back with Jets next season, GM says | NHL.com

Cheveldayoff optimistic after meeting with center, who has two years remaining on contract

www.nhl.com

That can be a good thing or a bad, depending on the new coach.

 

[surixon]

I just don't know Sur, I mean Stats is the guy who recruited Schmidt, who didn't want to come here, to join the group, saying there are good things going on here. Coming off a season where the Jets probably felt good about where they are at, in spite of the Montreal loss, which was directly the result of Scheif's suspension. And starting 9-3-3. Schmidt wasn't exactly part of the solution, so there's a lot of places where blame can be laid. Seems like Scheifele with greatest expectations, and very mediocre results, and I saw the same things as everyone else here, like the flyby in OT vs. Washington, has earned the greatest amount of vitriol. By the same token our starting goalie didn't make as many big saves, but he seems to have a got a pass. I'm not sure where to lay the blame on a failed season.

I just watched a documentary on Tony Dungy and the 2007 Super Bowl Colts, who couldn't get over the hump, and he was very adamant about not letting the outside criticism being fuelled from the inside. So I think that's part of what lies ahead. Getting the team to believe in itself and its coaching staff.

My perfect scenario is getting Trotz, and bringing Shae Weber out of retirement too, a leader that makes his teammates better. And a guy who you don't want to piss off, some of that piss and vinegar that worked with Buff, amid a fractured dressing room.

I just don't see it happening.

Our starting goalie was also played into the ground this past year by a coach who didnt have a clue how to manage his load. Also he got his fair share of criticism throughout the year.

I don't believe anyone thinks that Mark is the only issue on this team. Clearly plenty of players under performed this year:

Lowry didn't produce anywhere near enough for his usuage
Pionk was really bad
Dillion crapped the bed
Stanley regressed

Difference is that I never questioned the effort from any of them. Also you heard them take ownership. Pionk was very clear about how bad he played and indicated he was going to do something about it. What we heard from Mark is that there wasn't anything wrong with his play and that other things needed to change.

I have more time for players who are self reflective and own up to their play and work towards fixing it.

 

[Teemusalami204]

I think the best bet is actually to keep sheif and hope he starts putting effort in when points are not involved.

If sheif skated as hard on defense as he did for an empty net assist he would be a top 10 player in the league.

He has damaged his trade value with his play. There is only a handful of teams that could fit a player that will cost them goals as much as he scores them. Add that only certain teams have room for a C as well.

 

[voyageur]

Our starting goalie was also played into the ground this past year by a coach who didnt have a clue how to manage his load. Also he got his fair share of criticism throughout the year.

I don't believe anyone thinks that Mark is the only issue on this team. Clearly plenty of players under performed this year:

Lowry didn't produce anywhere near enough for his usuage
Pionk was really bad
Dillion crapped the bed
Stanley regressed

Difference is that I never questioned the effort from any of them. Also you heard them take ownership. Pionk was very clear about how bad he played and indicated he was going to do something about it. What we heard from Mark is that there wasn't anything wrong with his play and that other things needed to change.

I have more time for players who are self reflective and own up to their play and work towards fixing it.

I am not going to get bogged down in this discussion, I feel like I've made my point. I look at how Conor Mc David reacted to Edmonton losing last year. Clearly he had a disdain for Bear's play, and the guy was shipped out. He didn't hold himself accountable to getting beat or shut out. We can beat a dead horse over what hampered our team this year, no one has the crystal ball, not even sure that it is known from the inside of the room.

It's clear that some posters here have a real dislike of the guy who was once a hero in town. The tides turn quickly.

I've heard all kinds of things about what kind of person he is.

I met him at a Kidsport camp, that he ran, by him donating leftovers to Siloam Mission. He was there with Josh, and Hutch, and I think Lipon, and I believe @Jet was one of the coaches in this camp. And I can tell you that he put a smile on a lot of kids faces, by running that camp, some kids who couldn't afford to play hockey. I have insider info that Jacob Trouba was offered a chance to be a part of these camps, but turned it down because there was no money involved. So there's things about people we don't know, and I don't profess to know what Mark Scheifele is all about, but if 55 is back in a Jets uniform, damn rights, I'll be rooting for him.

 

[JetsFan815]

The buzz is now that he is coming back next season with the Jets. Jeff Hamilton and Murat both said that today and Murat said that his source told him that the chances are 80-20 in favor of Scheifele coming back.

 

[Cnile]

That can be a good thing or a bad, depending on the new coach.

It’s bad
Get him out of here
f*** him, there’s many others here who care

 

[surixon]

I am not going to get bogged down in this discussion, I feel like I've made my point. I look at how Conor Mc David reacted to Edmonton losing last year. Clearly he had a disdain for Bear's play, and the guy was shipped out. He didn't hold himself accountable to getting beat or shut out. We can beat a dead horse over what hampered our team this year, no one has the crystal ball, not even sure that it is known from the inside of the room.

It's clear that some posters here have a real dislike of the guy who was once a hero in town. The tides turn quickly.

I've heard all kinds of things about what kind of person he is.

I met him at a Kidsport camp, that he ran, by him donating leftovers to Siloam Mission. He was there with Josh, and Hutch, and I think Lipon, and I believe @Jet was one of the coaches in this camp. And I can tell you that he put a smile on a lot of kids faces, by running that camp, some kids who couldn't afford to play hockey. I have insider info that Jacob Trouba was offered a chance to be a part of these camps, but turned it down because there was no money involved. So there's things about people we don't know, and I don't profess to know what Mark Scheifele is all about, but if 55 is back in a Jets uniform, damn rights, I'll be rooting for him.

If he comes back and gets back to being the player he was a couple of years ago by applying himself all over the ice while having a positive attitude then I will welcome him back as I'm sure will most Jets fans.

It's great that he's good with the kids but his attitude and general give a shit meter last year soured a lot of fans and players to him. I don't blame those fans and players for being disappointed in him.

If what we are hearing from Hamilton and Murat is correct there is a pretty high chance he will be back next year. It is up to him and him alone to win those fans back.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Zero chance sheif comes back and let’s his play be scrutinized right ? He will at least play to get traded hopefully.

 

[GeorgeJETson]

If Schief is willing to put in 100% effort on both ends of the ice, I'm welcoming him back with open arms.

If not, then I'll be on the Trade Him bandwagon.

 

[voyageur]

If he comes back and gets back to being the player he was a couple of years ago by applying himself all over the ice while having a positive attitude then I will welcome him back as I'm sure will most Jets fans.

It's great that he's good with the kids but his attitude and general give a shit meter last year soured a lot of fans and players to him. I don't blame those fans and players for being disappointed in him.

If what we are hearing from Hamilton and Murat is correct there is a pretty high chance he will be back next year. It is up to him and him alone to win those fans back.

I think you only have to look at Calgary last year where Gaudreau and Tkachuk both were called out for giving up on their team, or Pettersson in Vancouver, and you can see how quickly things turn around. Hell Morrissey was getting torched on here, and no one knew the toll it had losing his dad. There's a lot of things around mental health and being in the right head space and being physically healthy that go into a player's success. Just based on the success we've had with Scheifele vs. the abrupt collapses we've had without him, tell me the grass isn't necessarily greener than some paint. That's my last thought. Fans and posters can choose their own heroes and villains.

 

[Heldig]

I think it's funny how much Dubois gets a pass for tendencies that are similar to Scheifele's defensively...We haven't been able to establish Dubois as a defensive zone faceoff guy, because of deficiencies, but keep piling on the guy who outscored him this year, without a top 10 scorer on his wing. It's the shiny new toy syndrome, in my opinion. We can disagree, but I have a feeling that the same conversation will rehash itself in a few years, with a different player at the centre of it.

No I think any of Dubois' negative tendencies are completely overshadowed by the I Dont Give a **** display by 55 last year. He routinely gave up on plays.

Team is MUCH better with a healthy, motivated Scheifele and Dubois as the 2 nd line C.

Not sure you can really walk back from the end of season comments. Time will tell.