Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[surixon]

I think it's more likely they only viewed lowry as an assistant coach because instead of putting his own voice/direction on this team he kept it the status quo, multiple players called out coaching this year so it seems likely they really wanted change.

I don't think players just instantly gave up when maurice stepped down, I think players just got extremely frustrated running the same system that weren't working, bring a new voice in who can provide that change and I feel the players will be on board

Let's hope so otherwise it's going to be another long season.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Let's hope so otherwise it's going to be another long season.

I'll partially agree with that. I still think this team has to hit rock bottom before the healing can begin.

 

[TommyKillian]

I think Calgary would only look at Scheifele if Gaudreau is in the mix.
It became abundantly clear (which has been the case for what seems like decades) in the playoffs that not having centre depth that can actually do something offensively was a massive issue. Yes, Markstrom imploded, but Calgary's third line centre had all of one goal as a Flame, and then 2-4C are used more in defensive roles.

Calgary desperately needs a more balanced lineup. They got 35 from Mangiapane, the second line centre had 39 points total in a modern record scoring year.

Would Backlund be up for grabs then? I assume he becomes expendable if you have Scheifele going the other way. Maybe Backlund with some nice futures for Scheifele. Backlund, 2023 1st, Connor Zary?

Allows the Jets to compete for 2 years with Backlund and shed what many view as a locker room issue. Also includes some nice futures. Probably not enough to satisfy many, and the Jets may be better off just keeping Scheifele, but an interesting proposal nonetheless.

In watching Calgary these playoffs, I agree that they needed a more dynamic offensive centre. Scheifele would probably respect Sutter enough to back-check for him. It would definitely be a good move for Calgary, haha.

 

[DRW204]

If the jets beleive in perfetti as 2c as some do around here, I'd consider a deal around mangiapane+

I'd wants Rasmus Andersson but beleive that'd be a no go from Calgary. And probably rightfully so.

However, I do think we end up keeping scheifele

 

[Huffer]

If the jets beleive in perfetti as 2c as some do around here, I'd consider a deal around mangiapane+

I'd wants Rasmus Andersson but beleive that'd be a no go from Calgary. And probably rightfully so.

However, I do think we end up keeping scheifele

Agreed. I think Mangiapane is a decent middle 6 winger, maybe not going to re-produce his last year every year going forward, but a decent player. Would need to come with a contract that makes sense. And if you can get the appropriate adds like Pelletier, etc, then the Jets don't necessarily need to take that big of a step back, and those pieces are also around for the long term.

I also don't think the org is looking to deal Scheifele this off season.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm coming around to the idea that his statement at the end of the season was more about whether they plan to win now or take a step back and less about his own ice time etc. From the sounds of comments from Adam Lowry, and then recently Comrie on the Illegal Curve show that they took awhile to see Dave as a head coach, I can believe that the team felt that there wasn't a commitment to winning this year. I definitely don't agree with his unfathomably bad effort playing defensively, but I don't think the issues are as bad as we originally thought, and the situation is salvagable.

I agree - but if we can get a good return, I move him regardless. The straw that breaks the camel's back for me is his next contract.

I hate to think about what we will do for a 2nd top 6C with him gone. But I also hate to think of what we will do in a few years with him carrying a cap hit of 8.5-9 mil or more as his play deteriorates.

 

[Volica]

Would Backlund be up for grabs then? I assume he becomes expendable if you have Scheifele going the other way. Maybe Backlund with some nice futures for Scheifele. Backlund, 2023 1st, Connor Zary?

Allows the Jets to compete for 2 years with Backlund and shed what many view as a locker room issue. Also includes some nice futures. Probably not enough to satisfy many, and the Jets may be better off just keeping Scheifele, but an interesting proposal nonetheless.

In watching Calgary these playoffs, I agree that they needed a more dynamic offensive centre. Scheifele would probably respect Sutter enough to back-check for him. It would definitely be a good move for Calgary, haha.

Although I'm sure Flames fans would hate seeing Backs go the other way, that's a deal we make every since day.
Opens up a hole in the 3C, but that's much easier to deal with than needing a legit 1/2C.

 

[LowLefty]

Let's hope so otherwise it's going to be another long season.

It's all speculation on what we think might have been going on with the players -
This may have been a player issue just as easy as a coaching issue.

Lowry clearly spoke out on the lack of effort on the team - not enough drive, compete, work
Maybe the players (or some players) didn't change they way they played because maybe they didn't want to put the effort in?

That's as good an answer as the coach didn't bring anything new (or make any changes) -
There were absolute issues with the players and how they felt, performed, worked as a team -
But the cause is where is gets complicated - Maybe they were being called out for lack of effort and certain players ignored the message while others didn't.

That would create a divide in a hurry. And it would support some of the comments that came at the end of the season -

Not calling Lowry coach of the year - but I think he ran into a wall with the team when it came to any change that required the team (or certain members) to step it up.

 

[surixon]

It's all speculation on what we think might have been going on with the players -
This may have been a player issue just as easy as a coaching issue.

Lowry clearly spoke out on the lack of effort on the team - not enough drive, compete, work
Maybe the players (or some players) didn't change they way they played because maybe they didn't want to put the effort in?

That's as good an answer as the coach didn't bring anything new (or make any changes) -
There were absolute issues with the players and how they felt, performed, worked as a team -
But the cause is where is gets complicated - Maybe they were being called out for lack of effort and certain players ignored the message while others didn't.

That would create a divide in a hurry. And it would support some of the comments that came at the end of the season -

Not calling Lowry coach of the year - but I think he ran into a wall with the team when it came to any change that required the team (or certain members) to step it up.

It's beginning to look like both parties were at fault. Lowry likely should have put his own stamp on the team but some players clearly had made their mind up and couldn't bother to listen.

 

[tbcwpg]

I agree - but if we can get a good return, I move him regardless. The straw that breaks the camel's back for me is his next contract.

I hate to think about what we will do for a 2nd top 6C with him gone. But I also hate to think of what we will do in a few years with him carrying a cap hit of 8.5-9 mil or more as his play deteriorates.

I think you keep him if the relationship can be repaired, unless you get a blow your socks off type deal. Who cares about 2 years from now. You can't run an NHL team like that unless you're committed to rebuilding. You're not committed to re-signing him in 2 years just because he isn't moved now.

 

[Jets 31]

It's beginning to look like both parties were at fault. Lowry likely should have put his own stamp on the team but some players clearly had made their mind up and couldn't bother to listen.

I still can't let Chevy off the hook with how he handled the whole coaching fiasco. What coach quits a team in the middle of the regular season? And then instead of hiring say a Boudreau he just promotes Lowry and stays status quo with all the coaches when there was a tonne of season still to play, like Chevy just gave up on the season as soon as Maurice quit.

 

[surixon]

I still can't let Chevy off the hook with how he handled the whole coaching fiasco. What coach quits a team in the middle of the regular season? And then instead of hiring say a Boudreau he just promotes Lowry and stays status quo with all the coaches when there was a tonne of season still to play, like Chevy just gave up on the season as soon as Maurice quit.

Most GMs name an in house replacement when the existing head coach is terminated mid season. It clearly didn't work with Lowry so yes Chevy wears some of that but Chevy didn't do anything different then how most GMs in silimar situations do.

Florida went with their assistant coach after Quinnville was forced to resign, was that them giving up on the season? It seemed their players continued to bust their ass and win the Presidents trophy.

The Jets fell in the first round to a Blues team that terminated their coach and went with their assistant. That team won the whole thing.

Pittsburgh axed Johnson and went with their minor league coach in Sullivan. The same Sullivan that bombed his first head coaching gig. Pittsburgh won back to back cups with him.

Was Edmonton not serious when they axed a well established Tippett and replaced him with a rookie NHL head coach from their farm team? Seems he's gotten them to the conference finals.

So while everyone wears this, it shouldn't have mattered that Lowry wasn't experienced, a number of players choose not to buy in.

 

[DRW204]

Agreed. I think Mangiapane is a decent middle 6 winger, maybe not going to re-produce his last year every year going forward, but a decent player. Would need to come with a contract that makes sense. And if you can get the appropriate adds like Pelletier, etc, then the Jets don't necessarily need to take that big of a step back, and those pieces are also around for the long term.

I also don't think the org is looking to deal Scheifele this off season.

I'd say he's solidly a 2nd line player. 35 goals this year, 18th in nhl In even strength goals per 60 mins the past 3 seasons. Only thing I worry is size in the top 6. Ehelrs, Connor, Mangiapane that's pretty small on the wing. And then perfetti is another smaller player at C.

Someone brought up backlund+2023 1st+zary. Replace backlund with mangiapane. Might be to rich for Calgary for Scheifele for 2 seasons.... Zary might be to high of a calibre prospect if mangiapane is included (id want him, but dunno if CGY let's him go). Think if they have an enticing RHD prospect a bit lower in their rankings I'd settle for that.

 

[ps241]

I think Calgary would only look at Scheifele if Gaudreau is in the mix.
It became abundantly clear (which has been the case for what seems like decades) in the playoffs that not having centre depth that can actually do something offensively was a massive issue. Yes, Markstrom imploded, but Calgary's third line centre had all of one goal as a Flame, and then 2-4C are used more in defensive roles.

Calgary desperately needs a more balanced lineup. They got 35 from Mangiapane, the second line centre had 39 points total in a modern record scoring year.

Yea that’s a challenging spot to be in. Those top 6 scoring centres tend to be expensive and I’m not sure Calgary has the assets to trade since you have to give to get.

What is the word on Johnny G he’s obviously able to walk if he wants what are you hearing in Calgary about his intentions?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think you keep him if the relationship can be repaired, unless you get a blow your socks off type deal. Who cares about 2 years from now. You can't run an NHL team like that unless you're committed to rebuilding. You're not committed to re-signing him in 2 years just because he isn't moved now.

And that is why you only trade him if the offer is right. I wouldn't say it has to knock your socks off though.

Barring an offer you like, we can take a year to see if he can get his head on straight. Though another off year could further diminish his market value.

 

[bennylundholm]

And that is why you only trade him if the offer is right. I wouldn't say it has to knock your socks off though.

Barring an offer you like, we can take a year to see if he can get his head on straight. Though another off year could further diminish his market value.

I'd be sure the players don't want 55 around after he quit on the team last year. To "hope" he will give more effort next year is fooling ourselves.
Ship him out and get the best return.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Most GMs name an in house replacement when the existing head coach is terminated mid season. It clearly didn't work with Lowry so yes Chevy wears some of that but Chevy didn't do anything different then how most GMs in silimar situations do.

Florida went with their assistant coach after Quinnville was forced to resign, was that them giving up on the season? It seemed their players continued to bust their ass and win the Presidents trophy.

The Jets fell in the first round to a Blues team that terminated their coach and went with their assistant. That team won the whole thing.

Pittsburgh axed Johnson and went with their minor league coach in Sullivan. The same Sullivan that bombed his first head coaching gig. Pittsburgh won back to back cups with him.

Was Edmonton not serious when they axed a well established Tippett and replaced him with a rookie NHL head coach from their farm team? Seems he's gotten them to the conference finals.

So while everyone wears this, it shouldn't have mattered that Lowry wasn't experienced, a number of players choose not to buy in.

I agree with this. But I have a different spin. It’s chevy Maurice and Chipman fault for letting this type of culture take over the organization.

You stated other teams and they all had players willing to buy in no matter what.

That’s the problem here

 

[voyageur]

Dubois isn't a 200 ft player. Scheifele has literally been one of the absolute worst defensive forwards in the league over the past 3.5 seasons. They aren't comparable. Dubois dipped toward the end of the season and ended up with a 52.4% xGF% on the year, which had him 3rd among forwards after Ehlers and Stastny. Scheifele ended up with his best result in 4 years, at 48.3%. This past season wasn't an outlier year in terms of not giving the least bit of a shit on the defensive end for Scheifele. It was a continuation of what he has done ever since that 2018 playoffs which he apparently is still living off of.

If Scheifele has the ability to perform to make the team much better, that is part of the problem. That means he has deliberately chosen to, with an A on his jersey, not put in the effort all over the ice over the past 3.5 seasons. That alone is enough for me to want to ship him out. Big #1Cs having value around the league, and the inherent danger in paying big money for a player on the wrong side of 30 who evidently has massive issues with motivation just makes it more attractive to ship him out instead of:

a) Letting him walk in FA in 2 years.
or
b) Paying for him well into his 30s.

55 hasn't been a professional for us in the past few years. Did you hear his end of year presser? Where he talked about how he needed to discuss with his agent and family about the future with 2 years left on his contract and an A on his jersey? Why would he be a professional about this all of a sudden?

This is not a 1 year thing. This has been brewing since 2019. That's 3.5 years ago. He has been this way for us since the year after Connor's rookie year. This isn't recent.

Yeah can you blame players for wanting to win in a short career? Maybe he was charged up? It's just hilarious that Scheifele is the scapegoat. You got Trouba being an A1 ass who actually cost us a series in 2019. You got Laine who gave up on the team. Traded for another guy who gave up on his team. Ehlers took his lumps for being non committed to playing a full 200 foot game, and being a playoff zero. Connor was not very good when Scheifele was taken out of the lineup, in 2020 and 2021. But you found the Cancer, I guess. I mean good chance we don't go to the WCF without the Scheif. Good chance we don't beat the Oilers in 2021 without the Scheif.

I don't know what went wrong last year. The Covid probably didn't help. I probably think he felt cheated that Connor was played with Dubois, and that decision came from higher ups, and who knows maybe even pops leaked a word or two into the GMs ear about what it takes to keep his son here. But Scheifele and Connor were a pretty high scoring tandem looking at the numbers. So what happened? Obviously Scheif didn't play his best, so we should get rid of him. Perfetti with 2 career NHL goals should replace him no problem, because he's younger. Never mind that we don't have another RH centre, or RH shot that can score on a one timer, fundamentals mean nothing when you have advanced stats. This board really cracks me up some time. Always looking for a scapegoat. And turning on a dime on guys who actually committed to playing here. It's too bad Bryan Little got injured or we could have ran him out of town on this forum before 55.

 

[surixon]

I agree with this. But I have a different spin. It’s chevy Maurice and Chipman fault for letting this type of culture take over the organization.

You stated other teams and they all had players willing to buy in no matter what.

That’s the problem here

Yup, no doubt keeping Maurice too long helped pave the road for the complacency to set in.

 

[surixon]

Yeah can you blame players for wanting to win in a short career? Maybe he was charged up? It's just hilarious that Scheifele is the scapegoat. You got Trouba being an A1 ass who actually cost us a series in 2019. You got Laine who gave up on the team. Traded for another guy who gave up on his team. Ehlers took his lumps for being non committed to playing a full 200 foot game, and being a playoff zero. Connor was not very good when Scheifele was taken out of the lineup, in 2020 and 2021. But you found the Cancer, I guess. I mean good chance we don't go to the WCF without the Scheif. Good chance we don't beat the Oilers in 2021 without the Scheif.

I don't know what went wrong last year. The Covid probably didn't help. I probably think he felt cheated that Connor was played with Dubois, and that decision came from higher ups, and who knows maybe even pops leaked a word or two into the GMs ear about what it takes to keep his son here. But Scheifele and Connor were a pretty high scoring tandem looking at the numbers. So what happened? Obviously Scheif didn't play his best, so we should get rid of him. Perfetti with 2 career NHL goals should replace him no problem, because he's younger. Never mind that we don't have another RH centre, or RH shot that can score on a one timer, fundamentals mean nothing when you have advanced stats. This board really cracks me up some time. Always looking for a scapegoat. And turning on a dime on guys who actually committed to playing here. It's too bad Bryan Little got injured or we could have ran him out of town on this forum before 55.

Wow the horrors of having to play with Ehlers over Conner. He still got his best bud Wheeler as his other linemate almost all year. I just don't think you can use the caliber of linemate argument here.

Actually playing him with the play driving Ehlers to help turn the possession of his line around made a lot of logical sense.

Also if he really had a bee in his bonnet because he didn't get to play with Conner it doesn't make him sound like a leader or a good teammate.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Yeah can you blame players for wanting to win in a short career? Maybe he was charged up? It's just hilarious that Scheifele is the scapegoat. You got Trouba being an A1 ass who actually cost us a series in 2019. You got Laine who gave up on the team. Traded for another guy who gave up on his team. Ehlers took his lumps for being non committed to playing a full 200 foot game, and being a playoff zero. Connor was not very good when Scheifele was taken out of the lineup, in 2020 and 2021. But you found the Cancer, I guess. I mean good chance we don't go to the WCF without the Scheif. Good chance we don't beat the Oilers in 2021 without the Scheif.

I don't know what went wrong last year. The Covid probably didn't help. I probably think he felt cheated that Connor was played with Dubois, and that decision came from higher ups, and who knows maybe even pops leaked a word or two into the GMs ear about what it takes to keep his son here. But Scheifele and Connor were a pretty high scoring tandem looking at the numbers. So what happened? Obviously Scheif didn't play his best, so we should get rid of him. Perfetti with 2 career NHL goals should replace him no problem, because he's younger. Never mind that we don't have another RH centre, or RH shot that can score on a one timer, fundamentals mean nothing when you have advanced stats. This board really cracks me up some time. Always looking for a scapegoat. And turning on a dime on guys who actually committed to playing here. It's too bad Bryan Little got injured or we could have ran him out of town on this forum before 55.

Sheif has been giving way more opportunity then all the players you stated and gave up and pouted. And let it spill into his season ending interview as well.

The other players had real beefs about playing time and watching sheif run the room and get away with not playing defence at all. Sheif has been treated like a golden boy here and it’s still not good enough

That’s the difference

 

[voyageur]

Wow the horrors of having to play with Ehlers over Conner. He still got his best bud Wheeler as his other linemate almost all year. I just don't think you can use the caliber of linemate argument here.

Actually playing him with the play driving Ehlers to help turn the possession of his line around made a lot of logical sense.

Also if he really had a bee in his bonnet because he didn't get to play with Conner it doesn't make him sound like a leader or a good teammate.

Playing with Wheeler was part of the problem. Those two couldn't generate any speed through the neutral zone, which they had to do since Scheifele took more d-zone draws than Dubois, and they really struggled together this year. For the record I think Dubois and Connor were pretty good together, having a centre who drove the middle of the ice gave Connor some space. Who knows if Lowry asked Scheif to play the same way, which isn't necessarily his game, as a finisher. But I look at the challenge for our next coach as our best forecheckers are all centres, our wingers are soft, and how do you design a system around that? Most systems do not incorporate a centre as F1.

I'd also look at things this way, I've worked at two different jobs where I was a hero doing all the heavy lifting, and instead of getting recognized, I had company people put in front of me, which bothered me because it wasn't through merit, but towing the line. If you look at how poor Dubois was in the shortened season, really a non factor the promotion is curious. We did have a brief period where 81-80-27 were put together and they had great advanced stats, but -s in their column, for whatever reason, I'd say weak defending. Now Duby gets a promotion as the company guy, since Daddy is the reason he is here. And maybe nepotism isn't such a good thing in the Jets family. Seems like it backfired with Dave Lowry as coach too. Created some controversy.

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

Trade him lazy self entitled whiner.

 

[Jets 31]

Playing with Wheeler was part of the problem. Those two couldn't generate any speed through the neutral zone, which they had to do since Scheifele took more d-zone draws than Dubois, and they really struggled together this year. For the record I think Dubois and Connor were pretty good together, having a centre who drove the middle of the ice gave Connor some space. Who knows if Lowry asked Scheif to play the same way, which isn't necessarily his game, as a finisher. But I look at the challenge for our next coach as our best forecheckers are all centres, our wingers are soft, and how do you design a system around that? Most systems do not incorporate a centre as F1.

I'd also look at things this way, I've worked at two different jobs where I was a hero doing all the heavy lifting, and instead of getting recognized, I had company people put in front of me, which bothered me because it wasn't through merit, but towing the line. If you look at how poor Dubois was in the shortened season, really a non factor the promotion is curious. We did have a brief period where 81-80-27 were put together and they had great advanced stats, but -s in their column, for whatever reason, I'd say weak defending. Now Duby gets a promotion as the company guy, since Daddy is the reason he is here. And maybe nepotism isn't such a good thing in the Jets family. Seems like it backfired with Dave Lowry as coach too. Created some controversy.

Scheifele is a good hockey player and i like him but watching him float around at our blue line waiting for a pass and not remotely trying to play defense was very hard to watch. The Jets were 9-1-3 without Scheifele and Wheeler when they were out with Covid then they come back and are put on the 3rd line with Lowry and we are still winning but out of the blue Wheeler is moved to the 1st line and Svech to the 3rd and we lose. Then Scheifele is moved up to the 2nd line and we lose again . Maurice, Scheifele and Wheeler i think were too close and you just can't have that, sort of what you went through at your job, the guys doing the heavy lifting weren't getting recognized.

 

[surixon]

Playing with Wheeler was part of the problem. Those two couldn't generate any speed through the neutral zone, which they had to do since Scheifele took more d-zone draws than Dubois, and they really struggled together this year. For the record I think Dubois and Connor were pretty good together, having a centre who drove the middle of the ice gave Connor some space. Who knows if Lowry asked Scheif to play the same way, which isn't necessarily his game, as a finisher. But I look at the challenge for our next coach as our best forecheckers are all centres, our wingers are soft, and how do you design a system around that? Most systems do not incorporate a centre as F1.

I'd also look at things this way, I've worked at two different jobs where I was a hero doing all the heavy lifting, and instead of getting recognized, I had company people put in front of me, which bothered me because it wasn't through merit, but towing the line. If you look at how poor Dubois was in the shortened season, really a non factor the promotion is curious. We did have a brief period where 81-80-27 were put together and they had great advanced stats, but -s in their column, for whatever reason, I'd say weak defending. Now Duby gets a promotion as the company guy, since Daddy is the reason he is here. And maybe nepotism isn't such a good thing in the Jets family. Seems like it backfired with Dave Lowry as coach too. Created some controversy.

Well Mark's ice time and role stayed tha same ao I wouldn't sat Dubois got promoted ahead of him. Using your office reference what appeared to happen is the composition of the work team Mark chaired was shaken up. Not all that uncommon.