Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[Weezeric]

Maurice is a very limited coach who plays favourites and doesn’t trust kids enough to give them a proper shot. He was mostly ok in WPG until we were ready to make our run, 4-5 years ago, then he should have been replaced with a proper coach.
He was also a big part of the problem and a big part of the reason we are where we are now.

Are we just ignoring the facts now? He ran the youngest top 6 and top pair for a number of years…

 

[FlappyGiraffe]

Are we just ignoring the facts now? He ran the youngest top 6 and top pair for a number of years…

I think people are hung up on the memories of being frustrated that he refused to play our favourite prospects (who mostly ended up being busts even on other teams). I know I've been frustrated with him on occasion for never "giving petan a real shot" even though it looks like he just knew how to judge a player better than me with hindsight.

Looking back I think if the young player was a NHLer they'd generally get played

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Are we just ignoring the facts now? He ran the youngest top 6 and top pair for a number of years…

Exactly, people ignore the fact that the Jets iced one of the youngest teams for the majority of Maurice’s time here. The “kids he didn’t trust” turned out to be kids that weren’t good enough and that was the reason Maurice wasn’t playing them.

People like to use the easy and impossible to prove point that the only reason they didn’t work out was because of Maurice’s usage and let’s be honest, it’s just because they weren’t good enough.

 

[tbcwpg]

Exactly, people ignore the fact that the Jets iced one of the youngest teams for the majority of Maurice’s time here. The “kids he didn’t trust” turned out to be kids that weren’t good enough and that was the reason Maurice wasn’t playing them.

People like to use the easy and impossible to prove point that the only reason they didn’t work out was because of Maurice’s usage and let’s be honest, it’s just because they weren’t good enough.

I think people see other teams with someone like Point who became a star after going in the 3rd round and think "why haven't the Jets developed a guy like that?!" when, looking at the 3rd round in 2014, only one other player is actually an NHL regular (Amadio). It's rare for these later round picks to be good enough to be regulars. Maurice gave young players a lot of opportunities - it's far more likely that players like Niku or Petan weren't good enough instead of being ruined.

 

[surixon]

Exactly, people ignore the fact that the Jets iced one of the youngest teams for the majority of Maurice’s time here. The “kids he didn’t trust” turned out to be kids that weren’t good enough and that was the reason Maurice wasn’t playing them.

People like to use the easy and impossible to prove point that the only reason they didn’t work out was because of Maurice’s usage and let’s be honest, it’s just because they weren’t good enough.

He ran a young team when it was mandated of him by management. The moment we started trying to win he changed how he integrated our youth. He started going more vet heavy then and stopped giving kids opportunities.

I think people see other teams with someone like Point who became a star after going in the 3rd round and think "why haven't the Jets developed a guy like that?!" when, looking at the 3rd round in 2014, only one other player is actually an NHL regular (Amadio). It's rare for these later round picks to be good enough to be regulars. Maurice gave young players a lot of opportunities - it's far more likely that players like Niku or Petan weren't good enough instead of being ruined.

Tampa has gotten pretty lucky with their late picks. It has more then offset a number of duds in the first round.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

He ran a young team when it was mandated of him by management. The moment we started trying to win he changed how he integrated our youth. He started going more vet heavy then and stopped giving kids opportunities.



Tampa has gotten pretty lucky with their late picks. It has more then offset a number of duds in the first round.

But there wasn’t really any youth worth integrating, many people around here for sure thought Dano, Petan, Niku were worth integrating but clearly they weren’t, the only one would be Heinola.

Appleton was integrated when he was 22 and was ready for the NHL and the jets were trying to win at the time.

Gustafsson was given a good look when he was 20 but wasn’t quite there yet, injuries have been what has really held him back for the last two years.

I fully expect Heinola to become a good top 4 defenseman in the NHL, but he is pretty far away from that right now, he hasn’t exactly stood out from anyone else on the jets third pair to really be adamant that he should be playing over them.

Lots around here talked about how horrible Stanley was this year, yet his stats are all slightly(minimally) better than Heinolas, why is it that Heinola should be playing over Stanley when he hasn’t shown to be better?

Speaking of Stanley, he was only 22 last year when he broke into the NHL last year.


Heinola was only 20 when Maurice left and he physically looks like a child, is it crazy to think maybe they should let him develop and maybe he can become a full time NHL player once he can legally drink in the states.

 

[pictman]

I wonder what was floating in the media circles that would make Dreger say that he thought Scheifele was gone even before the season post-mortem interview. Could be just stirring the pot though

Outside of putting the puck in the net his play this year was horrendous. No back check, no back pressure, no puck battle , reaching with his stick........ I suspect that's one of the reasons why PM left .I suspect they hoped Lowry could get him to play. Nope. After that it was obvious to all that he was done here. Dredger would be able to see that as well as what he heard from Jets management.The exit interview was just ugly icing on a bad cake. This is all just my opinion and guessing so who knows.

 

[Heldig]

What are the expectations in a Scheifele trade?

1 - 1 for 1 hockey trade for a RHD or another team's disappointing but good C?
2 - Futures trade - high 1st and a good prospect
3 - A first, top prospect and a player
4 - ??

 

[surixon]

But there wasn’t really any youth worth integrating, many people around here for sure thought Dano, Petan, Niku were worth integrating but clearly they weren’t, the only one would be Heinola.

Appleton was integrated when he was 22 and was ready for the NHL and the jets were trying to win at the time.

Gustafsson was given a good look when he was 20 but wasn’t quite there yet, injuries have been what has really held him back for the last two years.

I fully expect Heinola to become a good top 4 defenseman in the NHL, but he is pretty far away from that right now, he hasn’t exactly stood out from anyone else on the jets third pair to really be adamant that he should be playing over them.

Lots around here talked about how horrible Stanley was this year, yet his stats are all slightly(minimally) better than Heinolas, why is it that Heinola should be playing over Stanley when he hasn’t shown to be better?

Speaking of Stanley, he was only 22 last year when he broke into the NHL last year.


Heinola was only 20 when Maurice left and he physically looks like a child, is it crazy to think maybe they should let him develop and maybe he can become a full time NHL player once he can legally drink in the states.

I'm not just talking about integrating prospects but advancing younger players into key roles. He left Ehlers on the second line and PP unit while playing a inferior player in Wheeler. He didn't ever want to advance Laine up the lineup as well. Roslovic was stuck in a bottom 6 defensive role. When Cole was under him earlier this year he was played in role he wasn't suited for and not given PP time despite a number of our top 6 being out of the lineup.

He wanted to keep his vets happy and held back a number of our younger players the last number of years. The only players he made room for where grinding players to play on his square pegged bottom 6.

I am happy with what he did prior to 2019 but have not been a fan of his job since.

 

[pictman]

What are the expectations in a Scheifele trade?

1 - 1 for 1 hockey trade for a RHD or another team's disappointing but good C?
2 - Futures trade - high 1st and a good prospect
3 - A first, top prospect and a player
4 - ??

I'm thinking if the Jets management still see this team as in their " window " Then it would be option # 1. Maybe a less prolific scoring center who is willing to play D ? Or a top pairing D ?

 

[surixon]

I'm thinking if the Jets management still see this team as in their " window " Then it would be option # 1. Maybe a less prolific scoring center who is willing to play D ? Or a top pairing D ?

The chances of a one for one are slim imo. We'd need the perfect storm to happen again where a piece we need also wants out.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

I'm not just talking about integrating prospects but advancing younger players into key roles. He left Ehlers on the second line and PP unit while playing a inferior player in Wheeler. He didn't ever want to advance Laine up the lineup as well. Roslovic was stuck in a bottom 6 defensive role. When Cole was under him earlier this year he was played in role he wasn't suited for and not given PP time despite a number of our top 6 being out of the lineup.

He wanted to keep his vets happy and held back a number of our younger players the last number of years. The only players he made room for where grinding players to play on his square pegged bottom 6.

I am happy with what he did prior to 2019 but have not been a fan of his job since.

Laine from day one was playing in the top six and the PP was designed around him, what more could you possibly want, he was never better than Wheeler and should not have been playing over him. Not when he was here anyways. Laine was given his shot with Scheifele and they both weren’t good together, the Jets kept bringing in centers for Laine and really none of them other than Stastny for a brief stint really worked with him.

Ehler was typically playing on the left side so it was KC he had to play above not Wheeler, and it’s not like Wheeler wasn’t a play driving, point per game player for the majority of the time Ehlers has been on the Jets.

Ehlers on PP2 last year was the reason the Jets PP was so good, once he got on PP1 this year he didn’t make it any better.

For years people have said he jets need to spread the wealth and not be so top heavy, yet people have a problem when their favorite players are playing on the second line never mind creating a third scoring line. Nylander plays on Torontos third line, imagine if Ehlers was on the third line.

Roslovic was also given a good amount of time in the top six his last year here and didn’t really do anything with it, he certainly wasn’t close to overtaking any player in the Jets top six.

Also Perfetti was given PP time at the start of the year, Maurice spoke said the plan going into this year for Perfetti was do the same thing the Jets did with KC in 17-18, give him some games in the NHL, let him further develop on the moose and hopefully he’s ready later in the year or the following season, that wasn’t coaching that was a developmental plan with Chevy.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Scheif are Timo Meier... San Jose might do it for a 1-2 punch at C to balance their offence...

Dillon to Buffalo for Cozens

Connor-PLD-Perfetti
Meier-Cozens-Ehlers
Lowry-Wheeler-Apples
Harkins-Barron-Gus
Svech

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

The chances of a one for one are slim imo. We'd need the perfect storm to happen again where a piece we need also wants out.

San Jose gets all their offence from their top line... while Meier is their top scorer, they have nothing beyond that. Scheif would give them a solid 1-2 C punch. I don't see many options beyond that...

Would still love to find a way to pry Mark Stone out of Vegas though... Scheif for Stone saves Vegas 3.5 million...

 

[surixon]

San Jose gets all their offence from their top line... while Meier is their top scorer, they have nothing beyond that. Scheif would give them a solid 1-2 C punch. I don't see many options beyond that...

Would still love to find a way to pry Mark Stone out of Vegas though... Scheif for Stone saves Vegas 3.5 million...

Is Stone even going to be healthy going forward? Chronic back injuries especially as a player starts to age are no joke. I don't know if I would take that risk, at least not until I see if he can make it through a full season next year.

If San Jose lacks depth I just don't see them dealing a now piece for a now piece. They would want to add to their depth would they not?

 

[FlappyGiraffe]

What are the expectations in a Scheifele trade?

1 - 1 for 1 hockey trade for a RHD or another team's disappointing but good C?
2 - Futures trade - high 1st and a good prospect
3 - A first, top prospect and a player
4 - ??

I would like #3 the best followed by #2

 

[surixon]

Scheif are Timo Meier... San Jose might do it for a 1-2 punch at C to balance their offence...

Dillon to Buffalo for Cozens

Connor-PLD-Perfetti
Meier-Cozens-Ehlers
Lowry-Wheeler-Apples
Harkins-Barron-Gus
Svech

Unfortunately I don't see any chance Buffalo moves Cozens for Dillion. He probably is close to untouchable for them given they moved out Jack this past year.

I would like #3 the best followed by #2

Option 3 is the most likely given what we have seen with marquee center trades the last number of years.

That is what Duchene, O'Rielly, Echiel all brought.

 

[gojetsgo]

Scheif are Timo Meier... San Jose might do it for a 1-2 punch at C to balance their offence...

Dillon to Buffalo for Cozens

Connor-PLD-Perfetti
Meier-Cozens-Ehlers
Lowry-Wheeler-Apples
Harkins-Barron-Gus
Svech

buffalo laughs at us and never calls us back.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Unfortunately I don't see any chance Buffalo moves Cozens for Dillion. He probably is close to untouchable for them given they moved out Jack this past year.

Well they do seem to have blinders on for Mittelstadt... so not sure Cozens wouldn't be available.

Maybe Dillon for Tuch is more realistic but I do think Buffalo is really in the market for a vet with Dahlin and Power.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Morty, that’s hindsight. Most of us were super pumped last offseason that the Jets were going for it.

I didn't say it wasn't hindsight, just what should have been done.

That said, it is part hindsight, part what I thought at the time.

I wanted to go with our D prospects. When we got Dillon, I assumed that Samberg must not have been ready yet. So I was happy enough to get a big, physical Dman with a reasonable contract. I was dubious about getting Schmidt and his contract from the start.

I didn't really see it as about going for it, though clearly that would have been what Chevy was thinking. I thought our D prospects should and would have been the best way to "go for it". Spend that cap money somewhere else.

Water under the bridge. That wasn't the point of my post that you replied to. Just take it all as hindsight if you like. The point was that it SHOULD have been done differently and Chevy gets paid big money to get it right, not to be no better than the consensus here.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Lots of 20/20 hindsight here. You would've had the Jets overpaying for Copp at the start of the year based on what he was up until that point. A wasted year is defined as what? Missing the playoffs? Really good chance they do that with more of the rookies back on D. Development of defencemen? The NHL isn't a developmental league. If the goal in the summer last year was to make the playoffs, they're not starting rookies on a back end that has been criticized for a few seasons now as weak.

I'd agree they needed a new coach in the summer. Do we know that Maurice expressed those doubts to management? I don't remember that but I'll take your word for it that it was true.

See my post #1295. Same point.

No, the NHL is not a development league but every player coming into the league needs his development finished off to an NHL level. We had D prospects who were ready and who would have actually been at least as good, if not better, for a lot less.

A wasted year is when were were supposedly in the 3rd year before our window closed and not only did we not contend, we did not make the PO and the team disintegrated. Not only is our window now down to 2 years but it looks like it may require major surgery or even be ended.

We have been told since he quit that Maurice had a conversation along those lines with Chevy last off-season. I don't have chapter and verse but it has been talked about here a lot the last few months.

 

[pictman]

The chances of a one for one are slim imo. We'd need the perfect storm to happen again where a piece we need also wants out.

Perhaps not 1 for 1 but I think they will want a top 6 center or top pairing D and will add if they need to. I dont think the Jets move him for picks and prospects.

 

[snowkiddin]

Scheif are Timo Meier... San Jose might do it for a 1-2 punch at C to balance their offence...

Dillon to Buffalo for Cozens

Connor-PLD-Perfetti
Meier-Cozens-Ehlers
Lowry-Wheeler-Apples
Harkins-Barron-Gus
Svech

I think we’d have to get the Buffalo GM drunk to make that trade. Anyone wanna take him out for drinks?

Is Stone even going to be healthy going forward? Chronic back injuries especially as a player starts to age are no joke. I don't know if I would take that risk, at least not until I see if he can make it through a full season next year.

If San Jose lacks depth I just don't see them dealing a now piece for a now piece. They would want to add to their depth would they not?

Stone has never been a good skater either and I’m afraid a chronic injury will make his skating no longer good enough for the NHL.

Think Dany Heatley, I was quite young when he was in the league but I think I recall that was the issue with him.

 

[trebendan]

Well they do seem to have blinders on for Mittelstadt... so not sure Cozens wouldn't be available.

Maybe Dillon for Tuch is more realistic but I do think Buffalo is really in the market for a vet with Dahlin and Power.

Buffalo would want Pionk, but I’d prefer that Schmidt got traded for a lesser return.

 

[CaptainUgly]

Bring in Barry Trotz and give him the opportunity to get the locker room right. If we need to move on from Schiefele so be it but I don’t think we need to make any moves this off season.