Marc Bergevin - Road Closed for Repair Edition

[Habs Icing]

Top 10% among regulars once you account for ice time, position, etc. I didn't include the guys who come in for three games. Admittedly, I should have said that.

Anyway, Domi isn't elite by my definition, which means being dependable to be in the top ~10% at your position. For example, there are 124 spots for centers, so an elite center in my opinion is one who is among the 12 or so best ones. The number 12 can in turn be adjusted up or down depending on where the steep decline is.

Fair enough yet your definition is still very vague. What criteria will you use to place someone in the top 12? Take Malkin as an example. According to your standards, he wasn't elite this past year. That may just be a blip or it may be a sign of things to come.

 

[DAChampion]

Fair enough yet your definition is still very vague. What criteria will you use to place someone in the top 12? Take Malkin as an example. According to your standards, he wasn't elite this past year. That may just be a blip or it may be a sign of things to come.

Uncertainty is a very real part of the world and I'm comfortable accepting it.

The criterion is approximate, it is unlikely that you, me, or anybody can competently distinguish the 11th best center from the 13th best one, especially after failing to adequately account for linemates and defensive effectiveness.

However we are more likely to be successful when comparing the 10th best one to the 25th best one.

Malkin might actually be significantly declining due to age and thus no longer be elite -- I'm not sure. As Rocky Balboa said, the ageing process beats everybody.

 

[scrubadam]

It's hard to say, as we don't know what the package was.

Let's say that it was Pacioretty, would you rather have ROR? Suzuki will plausibly be better in the more important years: 2022-2027.

It would of been significant, maybe even our 3rd OVA pick.

STL gave up a lot for ROR but look where they are right now. And ROR is a 77 pt C. Maybe KK becomes that maybe not.

We held off to build for the future because MB didn't want to give up, but was that another mistake seeing how ROR is doing and how his team is doing?

I guess its a question that can't be answered, or at least argued both ways. I don't think STL is upset they gave up lots of pieces for ROR where they are sitting right now.

 

[DAChampion]

It would of been significant, maybe even our 3rd OVA pick.

STL gave up a lot for ROR but look where they are right now. And ROR is a 77 pt C. Maybe KK becomes that maybe not.

We held off to build for the future because MB didn't want to give up, but was that another mistake seeing how ROR is doing and how his team is doing?

I guess its a question that can't be answered, or at least argued both ways. I don't think STL is upset they gave up lots of pieces for ROR where they are sitting right now.

My understanding is that mB was willing to pay, but he had run out of patience with Buffalo not making up their minds.

One day, in fifteen years, we might get a book that tells us all of the almost-trades that mB turned down and that other GMs turned down.

 

[Habs Halifax]

My understanding is that mB was willing to pay, but he had run out of patience with Buffalo not making up their minds.

One day, in fifteen years, we might get a book that tells us all of the almost-trades that mB turned down and that other GMs turned down.

Problem was they were asking for Poehling+ and Bergevin didn't budge. You are correct about Bergevin running out of patience. He has history of making comments to the media that proves it.

- Buy a dog if you want loyalty (Markov and/or Radulov)
- Tell the Sabres GM to lower his price and give me a call (ROR)

ROR would of been nice but hey, maybe we can pick up Skinner and not trade any assets to do it?

 

[Runner77]

Problem was they were asking for Poehling+ and Bergevin didn't budge. You are correct about Bergevin running out of patience. He has history of making comments to the media that proves it.

- Buy a dog if you want loyalty (Markov and/or Radulov)
- Tell the Sabres GM to lower his price and give me a call (ROR)

ROR would of been nice but hey, maybe we can pick up Skinner and not trade any assets to do it?

Let's stop torturing ourselves about ROR. What's done is done.

MB can get quite some mileage done this summer. "Can" is the operative word. Go out and do it, MB. Before they, well ... can you next year.

 

[DAChampion]

Let's stop torturing ourselves about ROR. What's done is done.

MB can get quite some mileage done this summer. "Can" is the operative word. Go out and do it, MB. Before they, well ... can you next year.

No doubt about it -- Bergevin's at bat this summer is one with the bases loaded and against a weak pitcher. He has every opportunity to help his team this summer.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Team > Individuals

unless said individual is Bergevin,

for some here Bergevin is WAYYYYYY above the team, and it's obvious.

 

[WG]

Maybe you're right but this province's motto is still je me souviens and it will be for quite a few years more. I'm not talking about everyone. There's a segment of the population that will not stand for what you are proposing and they are very vocal. BTW have you taken a look at the commercial signage in the city? English is to be seen practically nowhere and I'm being generous with the adverb "practically". If English can't be stomached at your local strip mall, you really think it'll be welcomed from the GM of the Habs?

You are probably correct, but why? I sort of get the coach-speaking-French edict. But the GM conducts probably 95%+ of his work in English, whether with other teams or with most of his roster and coaching staff. The only use of the French language is for Bergevin to give 2 or 3 shitty pressers a year where he can mangle both official languages with equal aplomb. After most of these, I think we'd agree we'd all be better off if he just said nothing at all.

 

[scrubadam]

My understanding is that mB was willing to pay, but he had run out of patience with Buffalo not making up their minds.

One day, in fifteen years, we might get a book that tells us all of the almost-trades that mB turned down and that other GMs turned down.

actually I am pretty sure the story was they wanted the 3rd OVA pick and MB walked away. I think the other rumor was Max to NYI for their 12th or 13th pick and then that flipped for ROR.

Either way seems like the price was going to be a top 13 pick.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not sure why you keep telling me it's irrelevant...its very relevant.

Yes, if they traded DD or Plekanec...Galchenyuk would have been used as a center and they would have realized he's not, like every coach whose ever coached him has eventually realized.

Well I disagree but that's not the point. Back in 2012 and 2013, there were no reasons to think Galch would not become a good center for us.

You can check my posts from then...Antoine Vermette, who wasn't as good as Plekanec was, then.

Was traded for a 1st round pick + a prospect (Dahlbeck).

You get a similar return for Pleknaec....you can either draft one of the MANY great players drafted in 2015 (2015 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com) or you flip that return to acquire an established player.

Either way, you had flexibility to reshape your roster and he was the best piece to do it.

A late first and a useless prospect?...A year after making the ECF, you want to trade your top center for that return..? If you're doing that then man, you better be in full tank mode. Makes no sense to just move him for that.

Again, you need a direction. You don't trade Plek for the sake of trading Plek. Just like you don't swap Subban for an older Dman. Just like you don't rid yourself of your best D prospect with an inconsistent older young player when you also have no direction.
You don't make moves for the sake of making moves.
Pick a direction.

We have different views of what a "rebuild" can constitute...i'm not of the opinion that a "rebuild" has to mean a firesale.

Right...

As mentioned above...they could have done several things had that happened.

Did the Boston Bruins implode when they traded Milan Lucic?

No, they traded him at the height of his value...they properly evaluated a player who was showing clear and obvious signs of decline.

The Habs should have seen the same thing with Plekanec.

Funny you mention not needing a firesale but then talk about the Bruins...Don Sweeney came in and trades Lucic, Soderberg, Hamilton, Jones, Rinaldo, Smith (and includes Savard)...If that's not a firesale, I don't know what is. Sure, he didn't get rid of all the top guys, nobody suggested we do that.
But as I said, you pick a direction. Don Sweeney chose to rebuild, he moved guys, he didn't care where the team would finish and he'd build the team as he sees it.

Trading Pleks...cool. What else? That's it? Just him?...Why? Again, what's your direction?

 

[BLONG7]

MB always trying to do bedder tomorrow...........and tomorrow never comes....

Curious here guys, how much of an influence would the coaching staff, with DD and now Joel Bouchard in Laval be with our upcoming moves at the draft, and ufa day July 1st? Or will they have any influence at all?

 

[Tiger Svoboda]

I’m happy he kept the good prospects we have and i hope he continue this way. Adding Suzuki and Poeling sometime next year and hopefully a LD somehow.

 

[Tighthead]

My understanding is that mB was willing to pay, but he had run out of patience with Buffalo not making up their minds.

One day, in fifteen years, we might get a book that tells us all of the almost-trades that mB turned down and that other GMs turned down.

Titled “I wish I could tell you...”, an MB presser standard.

 

[Tighthead]

MB always trying to do bedder tomorrow...........and tomorrow never comes....

Curious here guys, how much of an influence would the coaching staff, with DD and now Joel Bouchard in Laval be with our upcoming moves at the draft, and ufa day July 1st? Or will they have any influence at all?

The most influential coach in that regard may be Richardson. He is very well liked by former players and is apparently happy in Montreal. It could help with a UFA D. However, he may be a head coach soon. Of factors that influence UFAs it is likely fairly low.

 

[HuGort]

I think a GM who orchestrated his way to NINE Stanley Cups gets a little more leeway than a clown who helped us to no-where over his 7 seasons.

Of all the GM's you take a shot at, Sam Pollock? Are you fu%^ing serious? I mean really?? WTF?

Orchestrated his own cup? Being handed a team with 9 hall of famers on it was a helping hand. Not to mention inherited the top farm system in NHL. Might a little help to him. If you don't know the game why respond?

 

[HuGort]

“The Future is secured”

Thank god for Bargainbin. We should be winning the cup any season now...

Quite possible seeing how teams are doing in playoffs.

I like Bergevin. Think he is doing good job. Reasons why he was signed long term to a big contract.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Quite possible seeing how teams are doing in playoffs.

I like Bergevin. Think he is doing good job. Reasons why he was signed long term to a big contract.

top4 :

Bruins, 2nd in the east, 3rd in the league
Sharks, 2nd out west, 6th in the league
Blues, 5th outwest, 12th in the league
Hurricanes, 7th in the east, 11th in the league


and I highly doubt you're predicting a Blues/Canes SFC.



but yeah, being a HUGE Bergevin fan you obviously think your beloved GM will succeed.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Orchestrated his own cup? Being handed a team with 9 hall of famers on it was a helping hand. Not to mention inherited the top farm system in NHL. Might a little help to him. If you don't know the game why respond?

you insist, still comparing Bergevin to Sam Pollock... I know you LOVE Bergevin, but come on now...

 

[admiralcadillac]

MB always trying to do bedder tomorrow...........and tomorrow never comes....

Curious here guys, how much of an influence would the coaching staff, with DD and now Joel Bouchard in Laval be with our upcoming moves at the draft, and ufa day July 1st? Or will they have any influence at all?

Tomorrow came in the form of this year and it was nothing short of much much better

 

[Guns n Roses]

Bergevin is a dumpster GM. Molson found him in the dumpster behind the brewery.

 

[Guns n Roses]

Tomorrow came in the form of this year and it was nothing short of much much better

Much much better than what? The 2013 core? Dude this is pathetic. Truly pathetic. I feel sorry for those of you who don’t see it.

 

[Sorinth]

Well I disagree but that's not the point. Back in 2012 and 2013, there were no reasons to think Galch would not become a good center for us.

A late first and a useless prospect?...A year after making the ECF, you want to trade your top center for that return..? If you're doing that then man, you better be in full tank mode. Makes no sense to just move him for that.

Again, you need a direction. You don't trade Plek for the sake of trading Plek. Just like you don't swap Subban for an older Dman. Just like you don't rid yourself of your best D prospect with an inconsistent older young player when you also have no direction.
You don't make moves for the sake of making moves.
Pick a direction.

Although I generally agree with your post it's worth noting that you can still trade a core player while being a contender. The main reason it can work is that the trades opens on opportunity for another player to step up.

Trading Ribeiro for example gave a chance to Plekanec to emerge as a top-6 C. So even though Ribeiro for Niinimaa was a horrific trade, it didn't really make us a worse team.

So even if all you get from trading Plekanec was a late first + prospect, by opening up the spot maybe Galchenyuk or Eller would have gotten an opportunity to develop into a top-6 C. It's easy to say they wouldn't have worked out because of their current careers, but the truth is nobody knows how things would've changed had they finally been given a real chance, something they never really got.

Now cards on the table I liked Plekanec and was fine with re-signing him. It's clear as day the mistake was sticking with Desharnais. There really was no point in keeping him around at center after the 2012-2013 season. Eller broke out, Galchenyuk flashed many good things. And Desharnais likely had some value since he was only 1 year removed from a 60 point season. But even if it had been a Ribeiro like trade and we got nothing, it still would've been the right move because of the opportunity it would've given either Eller or Galchenyuk.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Much much better than what? The 2013 core? Dude this is pathetic. Truly pathetic. I feel sorry for those of you who don’t see it.

That's what cultists say

But yes, it's better than the 2013 core for sure

 

[Sorinth]

That's what cultists say

But yes, it's better than the 2013 core for sure

So the core that didn't even make the playoffs is better then the core that finished 9th in league, 4th in the East and went to the ECF?

What fantasy land are you living in?