Marc Bergevin - Road Closed for Repair Edition

[Runner77]

Titled “I wish I could tell you...”, an MB presser standard.

Chapter One: Other GMs Might Be Listening

 

[417]

that's ****ing hilarious.

Not my fault if you can't differentiate being negative with being critical.

The lines aren't as blurry for everyone.

I have nothing but respect for the career he had with the Habs, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of him, i'm not an emotional person, at least not about players I cheer for, just because I like a player, it won't prevent me from evaluating his play the way I see it.

 

[417]

You emphasized the negative parts of the truth.

Which is ok.

Sure, that's fair, but only in the face of staunch opposition, which can give off the impression that I didn't "like" him.

 

[admiralcadillac]

The irony in this post is delicious.

You guys make me out to be a monster of sorts and it’s f***ing hilarious

 

[lo striver]

Chapter One: Other GMs Might Be Listening

Marcswell Smart.

 

[OldCraig71]

Chapter One: Other GMs Might Be Listening

What a gem of a statement that was. Alzner was tired like Chara was another one.

 

[Kriss E]

Although I generally agree with your post it's worth noting that you can still trade a core player while being a contender. The main reason it can work is that the trades opens on opportunity for another player to step up.

Trading Ribeiro for example gave a chance to Plekanec to emerge as a top-6 C. So even though Ribeiro for Niinimaa was a horrific trade, it didn't really make us a worse team.

So even if all you get from trading Plekanec was a late first + prospect, by opening up the spot maybe Galchenyuk or Eller would have gotten an opportunity to develop into a top-6 C. It's easy to say they wouldn't have worked out because of their current careers, but the truth is nobody knows how things would've changed had they finally been given a real chance, something they never really got.

Now cards on the table I liked Plekanec and was fine with re-signing him. It's clear as day the mistake was sticking with Desharnais. There really was no point in keeping him around at center after the 2012-2013 season. Eller broke out, Galchenyuk flashed many good things. And Desharnais likely had some value since he was only 1 year removed from a 60 point season. But even if it had been a Ribeiro like trade and we got nothing, it still would've been the right move because of the opportunity it would've given either Eller or Galchenyuk.

Sure, but again, it's more about ''who do we let go, DD or Plek'' than just ''we must move Plek'' situation. DD should have been let go and create the room for Eller-Galch. This was endlessly debated back in those days through much of both players' time here.
Furthermore, Ribs wasn't our #1 center, Koivu was. So if we did trade Plek, whoever took over his minutes would have a big task on their hands.

But yes, technically speaking, moving one player doesn't necessarily mean the collapse of your team.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Not my fault if you can't differentiate being negative with being critical.

The lines aren't as blurry for everyone.

I have nothing but respect for the career he had with the Habs, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of him, i'm not an emotional person, at least not about players I cheer for, just because I like a player, it won't prevent me from evaluating his play the way I see it.

keep telling yourself that.

 

[Kriss E]

Whether or not we thought it is irrelevant...what we know and what's become obviously clear today...

Is that he's not a center, so we may have thought it at the time, but time would have proven us wrong.

Disagree, but I know you think development has close to no bearing on a player. You believe they're destined to be whatever it is they become. No point in discussing this.
We can agree that in 2012, nobody knew. Leave it there.

As I said in the post you quoted - you can turn around and package that return for an established player who was better than Plekanec at the time. The team, even coming off a year where they finished 2nd overall completely cratered the following year anyways (remember, Price got hurt and you and all the others talked about this being a team that was all about Price????)

or we could have stood pat...given Galchenyuk a bigger role as you suggested, same with Eller and drafted a Matthew Barzal or a Thomas Chabot or Kyle Connor or Travis Koneckny.

And once more, this isn't me monday morning QB'ing this...I argued it, vehemently at the time.

Tell me...how would Matthew Barzal or Thomas Chabot look on the Habs today???

Okay sure, we can trade Plekanec, take that return and get an upgrade on Plekanec. Who would have been against that?
Barzal and the likes would be great but there is no guatantee we would have gotten any of them. How would Joel Eriksson or Samsonov look? Who?..Gotta show both sides of the medal man.

You're wrong, I never said the team was only Price. We argued to no-end in the Therrien thread that his system was all Price. The way the team played was extreme reliance on Price. We were playing like a bottom team due to his terrible system, or lack there of. It was never because our roster just sucked. And again, we should have been stocking up the team already.

First of all...why are you including Soderbeg & Rinaldo in this discussion? As though they were integral parts of the Bruins.

As for the rest of the names mentioned...again, that just supports my argument. This was not a firesale since they still retained their core players that to this day, remain their core players.

Don Sweeney didn't think like you and many others by saying "Lucic is my #1LW how will we ever survive without him"...nah, he accurately predicted that Lucic was never going to get better and it would just be downhill from there, so he moved him (which is what Bergevin should have done, on multiple occasions with Plekanec).

Dougie Hamilton he tried to re-sign but they couldn't come to an agreement...so he moved him for a 1st + 2 2nds

Jones was a Bruin for 2.5 seconds...not sure why you're bringing him up.

Point here is obvious...just because Plekanec as our "#1C" and I use that term loosely, doesn't mean that you can't move him...first of all, he was our #1C by default, not by ability.

He needed a contract the following year, one that I accurately predicted would be inflated and we'd be stuck paying 6M for a 3rd line C....

You have to have foresight in this situations...the same way you're beating the drum about moving Petry or Byron or Shaw is the same way I was beating the drum about moving Plekanec.

I've repeated countless times that we're fine trading Plek for an upgrade. It seems you just can't process this though as you keep repeating I think the world will collapse if Plek was moved...It's really odd...

Sweeney came in and made a lot of head scratching trades. He changed a lot and got a lot of backlash from his fans/media. He didn't just ''trade Lucic'' so comparing what he did to us just moving Plekanec is, at best, dishonest or misinformed.

He didn't rebuild in the traditional way people think a rebuild is...he didn't tear everything down.

He traded players who were at the height of their value because he identified them as players who wouldn't be part of their core moving forward.

In Bergevin's early years, to me, the core that needed to be retained and built around was Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk & Gallagher...everyone else, including Plekanec, were not players the team needed to keep.

They missed an opportunity with Plekanec, several of them....

Sure, and as I said, I would have had no issues there. Pick a direction and go all in. So if he identified those 5 as the guys he wants around, fine, start moving the rest. Not what happened.

 

[417]

Disagree, but I know you think development has close to no bearing on a player. You believe they're destined to be whatever it is they become. No point in discussing this.
We can agree that in 2012, nobody knew. Leave it there.

A very simplistic way of resuming my thoughts on the matter, but sure, I guess.

In the same vein, you think coaches can turn any player into a star just by "developing them".

In other words, the reason why Brett Lernout isn't the next Shea Weber, its because SL destroyed him.

Fair?

Okay sure, we can trade Plekanec, take that return and get an upgrade on Plekanec. Who would have been against that?

Ugh...you, for one.

Barzal and the likes would be great but there is no guatantee we would have gotten any of them. How would Joel Eriksson or Samsonov look? Who?..Gotta show both sides of the medal man.

Sure, that's fair...no way of knowing who the Habs would have drafted.

Now if only you applied this same logic to the trade of Andrew Shaw and the 2 2nd round picks that you and others are convinced were destined to be Alex DeBrincat and Samuel Girard..

Fair?

You're wrong, I never said the team was only Price. We argued to no-end in the Therrien thread that his system was all Price. The way the team played was extreme reliance on Price. We were playing like a bottom team due to his terrible system, or lack there of. It was never because our roster just sucked. And again, we should have been stocking up the team already.

I have a different recollection of events but that's neither here nor there.

I've repeated countless times that we're fine trading Plek for an upgrade. It seems you just can't process this though as you keep repeating I think the world will collapse if Plek was moved...It's really odd...

So you haven't argued that trading Plekanec, our "#1C", coming off a division crown would have meant we were tanking?

Could have sworn you said just that a few pages back. Might have been someone else.

Sweeney came in and made a lot of head scratching trades. He changed a lot and got a lot of backlash from his fans/media. He didn't just ''trade Lucic'' so comparing what he did to us just moving Plekanec is, at best, dishonest or misinformed.

Sweeney had more chips to play with...and he played them, almost perfectly.

The Habs had fewer chips to play, they didn't and the rest is history. We ended up with a washed up Plekanec playing 17 mins a game scoring 8 goals a year.

Sure, and as I said, I would have had no issues there. Pick a direction and go all in. So if he identified those 5 as the guys he wants around, fine, start moving the rest. Not what happened.

Is this what common ground feels like?

May be a first...I'm playing lottery ce soir.

 

[Perrah]

I wish I had the time to look through old posts. It is funny to see some here argue that the 2013-2016 habs were worse than now when people preached about winning divisions, winning a playoff round as things for the Therrien and MB to hang their hat on and how good they were. "They won the division what more do you want" that was repeated to me so many times when people were discussing how they did a bad job maximizing their team, or getting rid of DD. People comparing the past vs their optimistic views of the future is just a bit much. 417 was the only one I recall advocating for serious change, ala plekanec but at the same time I didnt tango with him much until the Radulov UFA period. Then there were people advocating for making improvements. Others saying the team was great and MB and MT were fantastic, who now say the team wasnt good enough.

 

[BLONG7]

That tends to happen when you trade your two top scorers for prospects

Retooling or rebuilding usually involves missing the playoffs

What was the excuse prior to those trades? Just call it, this is a clown GM.

 

[Kriss E]

A very simplistic way of resuming my thoughts on the matter, but sure, I guess.

In the same vein, you think coaches can turn any player into a star just by "developing them".

In other words, the reason why Brett Lernout isn't the next Shea Weber, its because SL destroyed him.

Fair?

You did not argue here that you dont think development holds much bearing?
To the point that you dont think a 3rd ov skilled center/winger would have been able to develop into an adequate top 2 center if he were used as a center and with the right wingers from early in his career...?
You did not argue that?

How do you equate that to Lernout becoming a Norris candidate?...Talk about a false equivalency...

Ugh...you, for one.

Is that really your understanding? After years of reading/exchanging with me on various subject...You really think what I was saying back then is “do not trade Plek at any cost”? That I would be against flipping him for an upgrade?...Honestly man...That's really what you believe was my opinion?...Or is there a possibility you just misunderstood me...?

Sure, that's fair...no way of knowing who the Habs would have drafted.

Now if only you applied this same logic to the trade of Andrew Shaw and the 2 2nd round picks that you and others are convinced were destined to be Alex DeBrincat and Samuel Girard..

Fair?

I never argued against the Shaw trade using the prospects drafted. Actually I never do that. I don't know enough about them to speak and drafting is not an exact science.
I didnt like the trade because I rathered keep Eller, and didnt like the contract.

I have a different recollection of events but that's neither here nor there.

Okay.

So you haven't argued that trading Plekanec, our "#1C", coming off a division crown would have meant we were tanking?

Could have sworn you said just that a few pages back. Might have been someone else.

I argued to pick a direction.

Sweeney had more chips to play with...and he played them, almost perfectly.

The Habs had fewer chips to play, they didn't and the rest is history. We ended up with a washed up Plekanec playing 17 mins a game scoring 8 goals a year.

We had chips to play no matter what.

Is this what common ground feels like?

May be a first...I'm playing lottery ce soir.

Cheers mate!

 

[417]

You did not argue here that you dont think development holds much bearing?

No, that's NOT what I argued...you're resuming an opinion that's much more complexed and nuanced in the way you want it to be...but that's not what I said. It's a total misrepresentation of what I think and i'm positive you know this.

To the point that you dont think a 3rd ov skilled center/winger would have been able to develop into an adequate top 2 center if he were used as a center and with the right wingers from early in his career...?
You did not argue that?[

I don't think the wingers he was used with had any bearing on his development, or lack their of, as a center.

Could he had been developed as a center if would have been used there and stuck there from the beginning?

Perhaps...I suppose you could say the same thing about ANY player.

But no, I don't believe he's a natural for the position.

So again, you're over-simplifying my opinion here...I'd never argue that players can't be developed or that development doesn't matter. I just have a different view on what development is about.

How do you equate that to Lernout becoming a Norris candidate?...Talk about a false equivalency...

Yes, that's correct - I did that on purpose since that's exactly what you were doing. I thought that was obvious. I don't actually believe that you think this.

Is that really your understanding? After years of reading/exchanging with me on various subject...You really think what I was saying back then is “do not trade Plek at any cost”? That I would be against flipping him for an upgrade?...Honestly man...That's really what you believe was my opinion?...Or is there a possibility you just misunderstood me...?

Well I mean, I brought it up several times as using the return for Plekanec in order to upgrade on him...and you seemed opposed to the idea or even concept of trading our "#1C".

I never argued against the Shaw trade using the prospects drafted. Actually I never do that. I don't know enough about them to speak and drafting is not an exact science.
I didnt like the trade because I rathered keep Eller, and didnt like the contract.

Fair enough - I guess i'm lumping you in with a general consensus opinion and that's not fair. So I take that backj

I argued to pick a direction.

You seemed opposed to the direction of trading Plekanec but we've cleared that up.

We had chips to play no matter what.

Yes we did...just not ones we could afford to really trade (Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher).

Cheers mate!

Salute!

 

[Habs Halifax]

You guys make me out to be a monster of sorts and it’s ****ing hilarious

You are driving the car and the flock of sheep are the Bergevin non supporters (There are many of them lol). The flock of sheep is like looking at you like why are you driving on the road in our way?

 

[Kriss E]

No, that's NOT what I argued...you're resuming an opinion that's much more complexed and nuanced in the way you want it to be...but that's not what I said. It's a total misrepresentation of what I think and i'm positive you know this.

Fair enough then..I misunderstood.

I don't think the wingers he was used with had any bearing on his development, or lack their of, as a center.

Could he had been developed as a center if would have been used there and stuck there from the beginning?

Perhaps...I suppose you could say the same thing about ANY player.

But no, I don't believe he's a natural for the position.

So again, you're over-simplifying my opinion here...I'd never argue that players can't be developed or that development doesn't matter. I just have a different view on what development is about.

You can have a different opinion, my point is, no matter how it differs, we just dont know. I never claimed Galch would have become a top center , I said that's what he was drafted for and hoped to become. But I never said he would for sure become one.
You on the other hand is convinced no amount of time spent trying to make him into a center would have succeeded. Hence my comment.

Yes, that's correct - I did that on purpose since that's exactly what you were doing. I thought that was obvious. I don't actually believe that you think this.

It's not what I was doing though...

Well I mean, I brought it up several times as using the return for Plekanec in order to upgrade on him...and you seemed opposed to the idea or even concept of trading our "#1C".

Again, that's you're misunderstanding. You really think I would pass on getting Getzlaf or any other upgrade on Plekanec? That is the root of our endless back and forth on this subject. You thinking I believed Plek to be an untouchable. I never did.

Fair enough - I guess i'm lumping you in with a general consensus opinion and that's not fair. So I take that backj

Cheers.

You seemed opposed to the direction of trading Plekanec but we've cleared that up.

Again, my top critic of Bergey has always been his lack of plan and not committing to a direction.

Yes we did...just not ones we could afford to really trade (Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher).

Why not though? They're no different than Plek, which is why I never understood why you thought I viewed Plek as an untouchable. I'm on record saying I'd trade anyone, even PK. He's the only one I viewed as possibly an untouchable and that's only because I never believed the return would be better than him. But for all the rest, I've always been fine with moving them.

 

[417]

Why not though? They're no different than Plek, which is why I never understood why you thought I viewed Plek as an untouchable. I'm on record saying I'd trade anyone, even PK. He's the only one I viewed as possibly an untouchable and that's only because I never believed the return would be better than him. But for all the rest, I've always been fine with moving them.

Well you have to build from within, with your own picks (I realize that Plekanec was a draft pick of a previous administration) ideally.

Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk & Gallagher I thought was a solid base to build from...Galchenyuk & Gallagher were still young, but I thought they'd become pillars of the organization (well I was half right I guess) while Price, Subban & Pacioretty were already established as some of the best players at their respective positions.

I mean, sure, we could have moved Price, Subban or Pacioretty...but it would have been difficult to get a better goalie than Price or better Dman than Subban or a better winger (especially for his contract) then Pacioretty.

Meanwhile, it was easy to find a center better than Plekanec.

 

[Runner77]

HF watching Bergevin countdown clock.

 

[ahmedou]

Almost all trades he made were very good for the team. Not sure what you are talking about.

For what or which team? The team who made a trade with us? The other teams?

 

[DangerDave]

I wouldn't say all his trades were good but I don't feel like he's bad at making trades at all. Nobody is going to be perfect in that department.

If I'm going to criticize MB, it won't be for his professional scouting. What really screwed us was how we handled PK and Price's contracts, MBs inability to draft or acquire a 1C til now and most importantly, his refusal to upgrade the coaching and amateur scouting.

I feel like he's at least beginning to address these flaws which makes me cautiously optimistic. Nothing we can do about price now and PK is long gone but we finally have what I think is promising center depth, a good coaching lineup at both the AHL and NHL level, an excellent prospect pool and a positive team atmosphere.

If MB can address the LD and PP situations and his staff can develop our rich prospect pool, I think this team could be great sooner rather than later.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

people still defending bergevin lmao
brainwashed sheeps

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You are driving the car and the flock of sheep are the Bergevin non supporters (There are many of them lol). The flock of sheep is like looking at you like why are you driving on the road in our way?

You have been consistently proven wrong for years on this forum, on a multitude of issues. What on earth would compel you to post this?! Why?

 

[Runner77]

people still defending bergevin lmao
brainwashed sheeps

This site is the burnt offering that keeps burning up in flames.

 

[Pickles]

people still defending bergevin lmao
brainwashed sheeps

The cult of Bergevin. And they call critics of Bergevin sheep .

 

[DAChampion]

You have been consistently proven wrong for years on this forum, on a multitude of issues. What on earth would compel you to post this?! Why?

She's been counting sheep due to her struggles with insomnia.