Marc Bergevin - Road Closed for Repair Edition

[Habs Icing]

I'll take the 98pt scoring winger who has less points than Domi on the PP any day of the week.
Domi putting up 61 ES pts is great and he's a good soldier to have on board. But these numbers, this year, it's tough to know how credible they are. Just two seasons ago only 4 players scored more than 57 ES pts..Last year it was 9..this year 15....So let's see how things go.

So don't look at his points. Look at his ranking. 47th - ahead of some very impressive names.

 

[DAChampion]

Yes, ahead of Malkin, Kuznestov, Couture, tarasenko, Duchene, Voracek, Barzal, Dubois, Kopitar to name just a few of the forwards. I guess none of those players qualify as elite according to your standards.

I looked at the first name on your list and then I stopped.

Yeah, Evgeni Malkin.

Do you actually think that Domi is better than Malkin?

He's not, but he outproduced him as the latter missed many games due to injury. He is also ten years younger, and thus he will eventually be the better player.

 

[Habs Icing]

In retrospect you were right. Trading Plekanec after 2014/15 would've been ideal. Only difference was back then the team was close to being a contender/near-contender, in which case you keep Pleks. In hindsight, we all know Bergevin never finished added the scoring he needed to add and we all watched the potential start to wither. And of course, Plekanec's offence dried up around 2016. But as recently as 2016/17 the Habs were a good team that needed to go all-in. They just never did.

I think this off season will be another 14/15 and we'll find out if Bergevin learned from his previous mistakes. He has three options:
1) Keep his veterans (Weber, Petry, Byron, Price, Shaw) and try to swing a trade or two to turn his team into a contender.
2) Trade some or most of those veterans and continue with the rebui.....uh....I mean reset.
3) Imitate a deer caught in headlights.

To be honest I really don't know which option he will choose this off season.

 

[Habs Icing]

I looked at the first name on your list and then I stopped.

Yeah, Evgeni Malkin.

Do you actually think that Domi is better than Malkin?

He's not, but he outproduced him as the latter missed many games due to injury. He is also ten years younger, and thus he will eventually be the better player.

Very dishonest of you to look at only one of the names.

 

[Lshap]

To be fair those names will never be considered and you know that. The Habs are located in Quebec. I've been told they're a cultural institution. You remember what happened when they hired a unilingual coach? So it's not really fair of you bringing up those names. Try for some names that can speak or at the very least mangle the French language (like Gainey). Ray Shero's mom was French Canadian. I wonder if she spoke English or French to him.

I think you underestimate our fan base. The Randy Cunneyworth debacle made headlines thanks to one tiny demonstration, and then everyone forgot about it and moved on. He kept his job for the remainder of the season, the media continued to interview him, not a single sponsor boycotted or complained. Should the Habs hire a non-francophone GM, there'd be noise for a few days and then the focus would shift back to the team. Yes, the cultural connection is important, but that's never been about the guys in suits.

 

[Perrah]

I think you underestimate our fan base. The Randy Cunneyworth debacle made headlines thanks to one tiny demonstration, and then everyone forgot about it and moved on. He kept his job for the remainder of the season, the media continued to interview him, not a single sponsor boycotted or complained. Should the Habs hire a non-francophone GM, there'd be noise for a few days and then the focus would shift back to the team. Yes, the cultural connection is important, but that's never been about the guys in suits.

That one tiny demonstration made Molson and Gauthier apologize, how fast do you think that moves on if they dont apologize?

 

[Rapala]

All GMs made bad moves. Sam Pollock who is rumour the best ever made more gaffs than you can shake a stick at. Lost Tony Esposito you waivers. Protected Phil Myre instead. Got nil back in Rogie Vachon trade. Drafted Napier over Mike Bossy just scratch the surface of his mistakes.

The point is Habs are in great shape. Youngest team in league. Powerful farm system, more picks in this draft than any club. Tons of caproom. Future Marc has secured

All GM's and all organizations will continue to make bad moves. Whether its drafting extending offering trading hiring or not firing. The problem with a Bad GM's is the ratio of good moves doesn't offset the bad moves. Then you have to factor in amplification, some bad moves need more than one good move to offset it and vice versa. We've seen plenty of tables denoting the good vs the bad and it really isn't close at all despite last year being a positive.

 

[417]

I think this off season will be another 14/15 and we'll find out if Bergevin learned from his previous mistakes. He has three options:
1) Keep his veterans (Weber, Petry, Byron, Price, Shaw) and try to swing a trade or two to turn his team into a contender.
2) Trade some or most of those veterans and continue with the rebui.....uh....I mean reset.
3) Imitate a deer caught in headlights.

To be honest I really don't know which option he will choose.

The only difference I see is that the organizational depth in terms of prospects is deeper and has more quality (though that last part, ultimately remains to be seen/proven) than it did after the 2015 season.

So I do think that this organization is "healthier" today then it was then.

But that doesn't change what you said, it's an important summer and it will determine the direction of this team for the next few years. He built a bit of momentum this year, will he continue to ride that wave or sit on his laurels?

 

[Habs Icing]

I think you underestimate our fan base. The Randy Cunneyworth debacle made headlines thanks to one tiny demonstration, and then everyone forgot about it and moved on. He kept his job for the remainder of the season, the media continued to interview him, not a single sponsor boycotted or complained. Should the Habs hire a non-francophone GM, there'd be noise for a few days and then the focus would shift back to the team. Yes, the cultural connection is important, but that's never been about the guys in suits.

If that's the case then name me one unilingual Habs GM. Even Grundman spoke better French than Gainey.

 

[Habs Icing]

The only difference I see is that the organizational depth in terms of prospects is deeper and has more quality (though that last part, ultimately remains to be seen/proven) than it did after the 2015 season.

So I do think that this organization is "healthier" today then it was then.

But that doesn't change what you said, it's an important summer and it will determine the direction of this team for the next few years. He built a bit of momentum this year, will he continue to ride that wave or sit on his laurels?

In many ways I have been pleased with his work over the last year. But I have this nagging doubt that it may have just been dumb luck.

 

[417]

Have to disagree here, only room for 1 offensively oriented, defensively weaker center. DD was the one to go, then you let Galchenyuk take his role, Plekanec play the match up and Eller as your secondary match up guy.

And that would have accomplished what exactly?

Plekanec cratered right around that time...Galchenyuk was not/is not a center and Eller was heavily under-utilized because the coached leaned on Plekanec so much.

So yeah, great, you get rid of Desharnais and acquire a later pick...

Then what? What would have changed the course that the team eventually went through if the only part that was removed was a part that wasn't contributing anyway (Desharnais)?

Eller was more than capable of the 3C role. They disliked him for some reason to the point they moved him from C for a rookie De La Rose. If Eller blossoms enough to move Plekanec you do that after DD is long gone. If Galchenyuk doesnt work out at center, which wasnt absolute at the time, you find something else.

Again, go back and look at Plekanec's usage during that time...

There was never going to be enough ice time for either he or Galchenyuk to blossom.

 

[Rapala]

To be fair, Plekanec was our #1 center back then. People have this confused all the time and think it was Desharnais, because he played with Pacioretty, but it was Plekanec. Our problem was not that we didn't trade him. If we were going in for the Cup we needed to add a center who would be an upgrade on Desharnais and would form a 1a/1b duo with Plekanec.

But to be realistic Pleks didn't have a particularly good post season in 2012 he outright stank. He ended up at a -7 which is totally magnified in a playoff format. So this 1A 1B scenario we had been living with for quite some time wasn't they way to go IMO.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Very dishonest of you to look at only one of the names.

I think it's more dishonest of you to put that name there in the first place, personally. It demands a debate, one that you can have very well with yourself, but one whose responsibility for expounding upon you are laying at someone else's feet.

I call it ''ping pong'' arguing. You know that Malkin only played 68 games this year, while Domi played the full 82. You know this was a down year for Malkin, while a career high for Domi. You don't mention it though. That's the other guy's problem. And you call him dishonest for not wanting to pick apart the rest of the argument?

Left swipe, bruh.

 

[Lshap]

I think this off season will be another 14/15 and we'll find out if Bergevin learned from his previous mistakes. He has three options:
1) Keep his veterans (Weber, Petry, Byron, Price, Shaw) and try to swing a trade or two to turn his team into a contender.
2) Trade some or most of those veterans and continue with the rebui.....uh....I mean reset.
3) Imitate a deer caught in headlights.

To be honest I really don't know which option he will choose.

Me neither. This summer's UFA market is rich with talent that could turn this team around pretty quickly. Chances are slim, but if you have a shot at Karlsson, Panarin, Skinner, Duchene, even Nyquist, Lee or Nelson, you grab it. Likewise, if Bergevin decides to continue last summer's rebuild, it would be smart & ballsy to trade Petry for a higher 1st-round pick. Pick a lane. Get off the fence. Choose your metaphor -- Bergevin needs to commit to either the present or future roster.

 

[417]

Yes. Any team that finishes 1st in their conference is considered a contender.
... and contenders don't trade away their best centre.

The time to trade might have been the next year, after the wheels fell off, but before the PK trade. Even then, they didn't really have a replacement ready for those minutes. A failure on MB's part.

So you acknowledge that the wheels fell off after that season where they finished 2nd overall, right?

Do true contenders, completely fall apart within 12 months?

The wheels fell off in 2015-16 because the 2014-15 team was as good as it was going to get.

This is the job of the GM, to be able to anticipate stuff like this...I know I saw it, the signs were there. It was time to change the dynamic, then.

Be proactive, not reactive.

 

[Rapala]

Markov was a number 2 D for us. We lost that and got nothing back. You can't do that if you don't think you are a contender. You dont add Alzner at that Salary and term if you don't think you are a contender.

The logic when you think you are a contender is to go all in. Well, logic isnt MB strong suit is it...

There ya go. Reset after 7 years. When we Will be ready To contend again the same situation Will happen... Weber too old (like Markov).

This is why many veterans who post here wanted as complete a flush as possible. The Bruins look poised to win another cup after playing the reset card but a couple of things had to happen for that to work. The main thing was amassing picks in a 2 year window while being able to identify and keep a very Strong Core. We don't have nearly the assets to play that type of card IMO.

 

[Habs Icing]

I think it's more dishonest of you to put that name there in the first place, personally. It demands a debate, one that you can have very well with yourself, but one whose responsibility for expounding upon you are laying at someone else's feet.

I call it ''ping pong'' arguing. You know that Malkin only played 68 games this year, while Domi played the full 82. You know this was a down year for Malkin, while a career high for Domi. You don't mention it though. That's the other guy's problem. And you call him dishonest for not wanting to pick apart the rest of the argument?

Left swipe, bruh.

Okay, you don't like Malkin and what's your problem with the other names? The point was that Domi is an elite player. His stats place him in the middle of other elite players.

 

[417]

Me neither. This summer's UFA market is rich with talent that could turn this team around pretty quickly. Chances are slim, but if you have a shot at Karlsson, Panarin, Skinner, Duchene, even Nyquist, Lee or Nelson, you grab it.
Likewise, if Bergevin decides to continue last summer's rebuild, it would be smart & ballsy to trade Petry for a higher 1st-round pick. Pick a lane. Get off the fence. Choose your metaphor -- Bergevin needs to commit to either the present or future roster.

But not realistic in terms of where management/coaching staff thinks this team is at right now.

There's no way Bergevin is going to handicap his coach by taking away his 2nd most important Dman to get a high 1st round pick...not unless he's using that 1st in a flip for a more proven player that can help the team right now.

There was an article on TSN yesterday that talked about 3 anonymous GM's who spoke about Jarmo Kekalainen's trade deadline approach...one quote by one of the GM's struck me;

https://www.tsn.ca/was-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-for-blue-jackets-kekalainen-1.1301927

“I wouldn’t consider it a success. When you commit so many significant assets to one year, it’s Cup or bust for me. I think there are some value plays on the margin that can be made without requiring a Cup. It all depends on how you’re viewing your organization.”

The bolded part is what struck me as I think it's a good point.

The Habs aren't going to win the Cup next year, barring some miracle...but that shouldn't mean you scrap all the progress made this year and just try to acquire a bunch of early picks to contend in some undetermined time.

As mentioned, there are value plays on the margin that can be made without requiring a Cup...we saw 2 of those moves this past offseason with the acquisition of Tomas Tatar + Nick Suzuki + 2nd round and Max Domi.

What i'm basically trying to say is that there are moves, if one is creative enough, that can be made that may not get us to the ultimate destination this coming year...but moves that can build towards that in the short term.

It doesn't HAVE to be "all in" or "all out".

 

[DAChampion]

Very dishonest of you to look at only one of the names.

Nope, it's efficient, rather than dishonest. If an argument is bad, I should stop pondering it.

 

[DAChampion]

Okay, you don't like Malkin and what's your problem with the other names? The point was that Domi is an elite player. His stats place him in the middle of other elite players.

If 47th in point production in spite if playing the full 82 games is elite, then 10% of the players in the players in the NHL are elite, more if you count defensive acumen.

If you mean that anybody in the top 10% is elite, then sure, Domi is elite.

 

[teamfirst]

some people are fans of the team, some others are fans of the GM only... we know now in wich category the guy you quoted fits.

Still categorizing fans EC ........damn, i tought you where better than that

 

[Lshap]

That one tiny demonstration made Molson and Gauthier apologize, how fast do you think that moves on if they dont apologize?

They apologized but didn't change anything. And nobody cared. That's because the soul of the Habs never resided with the GM or the coach.

 

[Kriss E]

Pretty sure we know exactly how that would have turned out.

Actually we don't. No matter how little you believe, that's all it is, a ''belief''. So we don't know.

And Brent Burns was drafted to play forward...yet he's an all star Dman.

It doesn't really matter that Galchenyuk was drafted to play center, he wasn't and everything that's unraveled since supports that.

Again. Irrelevant. In 2012, Galch was drafted to be a center, they believed he was going to play there too. If they had traded DD or even Plek, Galch would have been used as a center.

Yes, there were good things to build on...Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Eller.


What's the best way to add to this talent in your opinion?

Trading David Desharnais? Or trading Tomas Plekanec?

Again. Depends. What do you get for Plek? Is the plan to rebuild now? Can you package Plek for a legit center? Are we stocking up on prospects instead? Okay, trade Markov and Gionta too.

Moving either of these guys, wouldn't have stopped the progress this team was making at the time...Antoine Vermette at that time, was traded for a 1st + prospect, Plekanec was a better player then...imagine the kind of package you could have gotten for him.

You're talking at least a 1st + A-level prospect...then you've got ammunition to go big game hunting.

Not sure how many times I have to repeat this. It depends on the direction. In 2013-14, we have f*** all reason to believe we should be in rebuild mode. At that point, we just made the ECF, Galch back then is still viewed as our future potential top center. What is expected by most fans, if not all, is to finally see him moved from wing to center next season and that is our attack plan going into the summer. Nobody is expecting our brilliant GM to just swap Briere for PAP and go for Sekac/Maholtra as his off season master plan. Even a year later, you and I went back and forth hard because you didn't think Semin was Bergevin's big summer move but...it kinda was...

People waited for Bergevin to make his big splash over his first few years as the team grew more competitive and was in a position to compete in a rather weak Eastern Conference.

The biggest knock on Bergevin has always been 1) no commitment to any direction, and 2) no plan/structure.
Trade Plekanec...sure...trade him. What for though? What's the game plan? Trade him for the sake of trading him and adding a 1st++?? What's the direction we're taking. You need to know this before making any decision. So..should we have rebuild in summer 2015? Sure..Then again, as I said, I think we should have been bulking our team up since summer 2013 so the 2015 roster you are referring to would be different had we done what I wanted.

 

[Perrah]

They apologized but didn't change anything. And nobody cared. That's because the soul of the Habs never resided with the GM or the coach.

Im not arguing it does but they bent to the complaints of what 200 people? Not sure how you can be so certain if they just ignored them and gave Cunneyworth a fair shake that it wouldnt have amplified.

 

[DAChampion]

But not realistic in terms of where management/coaching staff thinks this team is at right now.

There's no way Bergevin is going to handicap his coach by taking away his 2nd most important Dman to get a high 1st round pick...not unless he's using that 1st in a flip for a more proven player that can help the team right now.

There was an article on TSN yesterday that talked about 3 anonymous GM's who spoke about Jarmo Kekalainen's trade deadline approach...one quote by one of the GM's struck me;

https://www.tsn.ca/was-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-for-blue-jackets-kekalainen-1.1301927

“I wouldn’t consider it a success. When you commit so many significant assets to one year, it’s Cup or bust for me. I think there are some value plays on the margin that can be made without requiring a Cup. It all depends on how you’re viewing your organization.”

The bolded part is what struck me as I think it's a good point.

The Habs aren't going to win the Cup next year, barring some miracle...but that shouldn't mean you scrap all the progress made this year and just try to acquire a bunch of early picks to contend in some undetermined time.

As mentioned, there are value plays on the margin that can be made without requiring a Cup...we saw 2 of those moves this past offseason with the acquisition of Tomas Tatar + Nick Suzuki + 2nd round and Max Domi.

What i'm basically trying to say is that there are moves, if one is creative enough, that can be made that may not get us to the ultimate destination this coming year...but moves that can build towards that in the short term.

It doesn't HAVE to be "all in" or "all out".

I think that it has to be all in or all out, as that is the nature of the modern NHL. Only one team can win.

What do you think of the St Louis Blues making the conference finals? They've been trading players for first rounders at multiple deadlines, something that the Habs never had the courage to do.