phillipmike
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- Oct 27, 2009
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Blue Jays Discussion: Manoah gets the Halladay treatment (optioned to rookie-ball to try and fix him)
- Thread starter The Nemesis
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TheBeastCoast
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I think best case scenario would be him getting back by September. Who knows how long he will spend at the complex but I would imagine they will get him some starts in AAA as well before they bring him back up. It definitely isn't going to be a quick trip down.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
Like the posts below say, if they're going to fix him it's going to require a lot of training and hands-on work that he won't get if he's just chucked into the Bisons rotation and going out every 5 games to pitch. FCL means he's at the team's uber-fancy training facility and they'll likely spend weeks dickering with his mechanics and evaluating him while only subjecting him to the occasional low-stress environment of rookie ball games (which, in the FCL, I actually think aren't even "proper" games as much as they are inter-squad scrimmages or the like)
This is probably the best place that he can go to work on his issues if they believe it's something wrong with his mechanics or mentality or whatever, or if they need to put him under the microscope to find out if he's masking an injury.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
It could be as simple as they want him to work on things with the lowest pressure possible for a couple weeks. They've done this with some of their prospects in recent years. I think it was Tiedemann who spent a few weeks at the complex mid-season last year just to work on some things away from game action.
Yup, and maybe the mental reset most of all.
I think at the start of the year it was just an issue with the mechanics on his slider but when he couldn't get outs his confidence and everything else mentally has just fallen apart.
phillipmike
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- Oct 27, 2009
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The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
...but why? He's awful. His 2023 might be worse than Manoah's and he doesn't have a sterling run in the previous couple years to counteract that or give hope for better. Plus he's also apparently a massive knob and is dumb enough to have hurt himself twice while throwing a tantrum over something.
Steve Phillips says a lot of dumb things.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
Yep. He got the TJ in his rookie pro year of 2010. he pitched like 25 innings that year, missed all of 2011 and barely got to 100 innings in 2012
GoonieFace
Registered User
I’d rather get Dan
But it’s not entirely mental. His velocity and spin rate are both down so he either has a machanical issue or some nagging injury…or suffering from excess fatigue.
The missing confidence is a concern but if they can’t fix his delivery and velocity then it won’t matter.
Personally I think the main issue is poor conditioning that is causing fatigue. He needs to drop some weight so he can actually pitch every 5 days.
Vladdy and kirk are in the same boat.
Dr.Funk
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- Jul 2, 2004
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Then the Mets rode him like a rented mule.
An arm injury with DeGrom could be seen coming from 50 miles away. He's had health issues the last few years and before that he pitched a lot of hard innings for some mediocre Mets teams.
- Dec 12, 2017
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Plesac is awful and a douche. I'd rather let Francis have a shot.
Guerrero is fine. He's a great athlete who's out there winning Gold Gloves, stealing bases, doing Superman slides. He's just a big dude.
Eyedea
The Legend Continues
Unless we find out he’s been hiding significant injuries the comparison doesn’t hold outside of them being good one year and bad the next.
Hellcat
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- Jul 13, 2022
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Manoah 2023 v 2022:
- BB% is up to 14.9% from 6.5% in 2022, third largest increase in the majors.
- Hard Hit % is up to 43.3% from 31,5% in 2022, 14th largest increase in the majors.
- His fast ball is down 1mph YOY, off speed is down 0.6 mpg
- BA is .289 up from .202 in 2022.
- SLG is .485 up from .314 in 2022
- First pitch strike is down to 55.7% (32nd MLB worse), down from 61.8%.
I thought he might be tipping pitches but I couldn't pick up anything obvious, maybe its between the ears. Maybe its mechanical. Some people suggested that the pitch clock was messing up his cadence. I don't remember him being a pitcher who took a lot of time between pitches. I'm wondering if the shift ban is affecting him?
- BB% is up to 14.9% from 6.5% in 2022, third largest increase in the majors.
- Hard Hit % is up to 43.3% from 31,5% in 2022, 14th largest increase in the majors.
- His fast ball is down 1mph YOY, off speed is down 0.6 mpg
- BA is .289 up from .202 in 2022.
- SLG is .485 up from .314 in 2022
- First pitch strike is down to 55.7% (32nd MLB worse), down from 61.8%.
I thought he might be tipping pitches but I couldn't pick up anything obvious, maybe its between the ears. Maybe its mechanical. Some people suggested that the pitch clock was messing up his cadence. I don't remember him being a pitcher who took a lot of time between pitches. I'm wondering if the shift ban is affecting him?
He was the second slowest qualified pitcher last year, so that could definitely be a factor.
Eyedea
The Legend Continues
He was a pretty slow tempo pitcher, especially with runners on. This was a notable concern this offseason and one would have hoped it was something he would work on heading into ST.
- Dec 12, 2017
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I don’t know, but if he trained differently it certainly could affect the legs, back or shoulders.
Do you know if he does yoga?
Blue Jays option Alek Manoah to FCL
The move comes a day after Manoah gave up six runs in just 1/3 of an inning against the Astros.
The Toronto Blue Jays optioned embattled starter Alek Manoah to the rookie-level Florida Complex League, the team announced Tuesday. Here’s what you need to know:
• Manoah, 25, has a 6.36 ERA and 1.897 WHIP in 13 starts (58 innings) this season.
• The 2019 No. 11 draft pick finished third in American League Cy Young voting last season, when he posted a 2.24 ERA over 31 starts. He was Toronto’s Opening Day starter this year.
• The decision comes a day after the right-handed Manoah gave up six runs in just 1/3 of an inning (38 pitches) against the Astros.
• Toronto made a host of other roster moves Tuesday, including reinstating starter Chris Bassitt from the paternity list, reinstating infielder Santiago Espinal from the 10-day injured list and adding starter Bowden Francis to the major-league roster.
How did we get here?
Nearly all season, Manoah has looked like a totally different guy than the one who finished third in Cy Young voting with a 2.24 ERA. But the nadir of a nightmare season came in Monday night’s 11-4 loss to the Astros, when Manoah faced nine batters in the first inning, retiring only one and allowing six runs on seven hits, including a grand slam, with a walk.
All season, he’s lacked command, his velocity has been down, his slider has lost movement and he hasn’t been able to put batters away. He’s gone from one of the best pitchers last year to statistically one of the worst this year in a truly stunning development.
Manoah has been frank about the mental toll this year’s struggles have taken on him, though adamant he would find a way to figure it out. His next start had been scheduled for Saturday against the Twins, but the Blue Jays are in a fight to get back into playoff contention where every win matters — and Manoah, at 1-7 this season, hasn’t been effective on the mound. They chose to take this drastic move in an attempt to help him figure things out away from the pressure of the big leagues. — McGrath
What’s next for Manoah?
Sending Manoah all the way down to the Florida Complex League — the lowest minor-league level — suggests the Blue Jays really want him to escape the pressures of competition and get himself sorted. There are no plans for Manoah to get into games immediately, but rather he’ll work out of the team’s pitching lab at their Player Development Complex in Dunedin, Fla., to try to drill down what’s gone wrong this season. From there, the team will develop a plan to get him back into games but the timeline is fluid.
“He’s a big part of our team,” Schneider said. “I think that we just have to really just get him right. So that’s collectively what we thought would be a good first step.” — McGrath
Where do the Blue Jays go from here?
As part of a flurry of roster moves Tuesday, the Blue Jays added the right-hander Francis to their roster. He has a 3.45 ERA in Buffalo this season and he could be an option to fill in for Manoah on Saturday, though Schneider has yet to confirm a starter. The Blue Jays have the option of getting creative and going with a bullpen day, too, and using Francis in a bulk role. — McGrath
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