Blue Jays Discussion: Manoah gets the Halladay treatment (optioned to rookie-ball to try and fix him)

[justashadowof]

The Blue Jays were careful with Aaron Sanchez limiting pitch counts and this type of thing still happened to him. I think it's largely just in the player's build or it isn't. Although poor technique can put unnecessary stresses on arms but sometimes there's no avoiding this as the pitcher's self-taught motion turns out to be how the pitcher is most effective.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I don't really buy into the whole limiting innings on a guy once they make it to the majors. Sure while they are in the minors with a guy like Tiedemann it makes sense, but once they are in the majors you are in my mind essentially saving bullets that may never come. Spencer Strider went from throwing 63 innings in a season to 130 last year and will likely be around 200 this year....and might just win himself a Cy Young award to boot. I think it started as a mechanical issue and has compounded into a mental issue as his struggles got worse and worse. I am not a professional pitching coach obviously but to me it looks like an upper half issue mechanically, opening himself up to early and the arm is dragging so he has lost the depth on his pitchers.

 

[Eyedea]

The Blue Jays were careful with Aaron Sanchez limiting pitch counts and this type of thing still happened to him. I think it's largely just in the player's build or it isn't. Although poor technique can put unnecessary stresses on arms but sometimes there's no avoiding this as the pitcher's self-taught motion turns out to be how the pitcher is most effective.

Not that I disagree, Manoah was known for being a workhorse starter (tossed 125 innings in college + pro in 2019) and the innings increase should not have been an issue for him. However, Aaron Sanchez had blister issues so I'm not sure how he's relevant to this scenario.

What should be noted is that this season has been negatively affecting a lot of good pitchers. Not sure of the variance between 2023 and past years but the only marquee differences are the pitch clocks and shift bans.

Brady Singer, Jose Suarez, Grayson Rodriguez, Brandon Pfaadt, Cal Quantrill, Noah Syndergaard, Lance Lynn, Jameson Taillon, Ranger Suarez. Those are just a few names of above average starters with prominently high xERAs. Plus there are guys like Alcantara, Cortes, Urquidy, Detmers, Sale, Lopez, Urias, Musgrove, and Nola with inflated ERAs.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Health, Dome struggles marked Vladimir Guerrero Jr.'s month of May - TSN.ca

TORONTO — The baseline expectations for Vladimir Guerrero Jr. are so sky-high that anything but MVP-type numbers at all times will always be a disappointment for some.

Unfair as it is in this sport, he has his talent level to thank.

Heading into June, there’s no arguing that Guerrero’s overall numbers, especially in the power department, leave a lot to be desired.

But May was simply not his month.

It was a grind for the 24-year-old, who battled knee and wrist ailments, but never came close to an IL stint.

There was a right knee MRI in the middle of the month that revealed no structural damage, but quietly there was also an MRI and additional testing done on his troublesome left wrist.

Not one to make excuses, Guerrero downplays the notion his struggles are because of the injuries, but he admitted it’s been a physical battle for him recently.

“It hasn’t been easy,” said Guerrero Jr., who can usually be found post-game with a bag of ice wrapped to his left wrist. “But, I mean, this is the sport that I love and you’re never going to be 100 per cent. I’m not going to take myself out of the lineup. I’m going to grind.”

The May numbers reveal a hitter doing just that — grinding through things at less than 100 per cent, and a .260/.296/.420 slash line with just three homers and a very uncharacteristic 5:25 walk-to-K ratio helped contribute to the club’s down month in the standings as a team.

There are already signs Guerrero Jr. is feeling better.

His swing decisions have been much better since the calendar flipped to June, and he’s got a homer, a double and three walks in four games to show for it.

“Everyone goes through the physical battles over the course of a year and if ever he wasn’t available to play or perform at the level we thought he could he wouldn’t have been in there,” manager John Schneider said. “Yeah, nicked up, like everybody, but he’s going to continue to battle through it.

“Sometimes, you can lose your mechanics a little bit and when that happens the pitch selection gets a little bit loose, if you will. I think that he was losing his barrel a little bit and when you do that you feel like you have to rush or cheat to certain pitches and I think that’s what he’s going through.”

 

[canucksfan]

 

[Hoverhand]

Yeah the comparison game is getting to be a bit annoying for me. Unless he starts getting blisters on his hands or his knees turn into hamburger meat, there is not an easy Jays pitcher comparison to be had here,

 

[Larcos_Unal]

When are we sending Vladdy down to the Florida Complex League? He looks a little lost right now. It's a little concerning.

I'd prefer if he went to Florida Simple League, might be better for his self confidence

 

[MK78]

Manoah went from 129 IP in 2021.
to
196 IP plus playoffs in 2022.

An important baseball strategy is to never increase that many innings in one season.
Jays broke a cardinal rule of development.

We always hear about "Shutting a guy down" specifically for situations like this.
Now because the Jays were in a penant race and Monoah was going so well the Jays were tempted and in fact smashed the innings limit he would have had set for him.

There are other ways to limit innings mid-season. Pull guys after 5 innings, skip a start.
Jays brain trust thought they were smarter than everyone else and are paying for it today.

Manoah was probably physically and mentally drained after his great season.
He isn't the fitest guy to begin with and it looks like he just put his feet up and rolled into camp. This should have been a priority to build him back up.

And finally a pitch clock where Manoah was one of the slowest pitchers last year in MLB having to adapt, low fitness, tired arm and mind all adds up to what we have today.

He will be off to a boot camp where he will get his mental and physical reset and he will come back eventually the pitcher he was destined to be.

The guy is 25 years old. He should not be tired after playing every 5 days. How does Bo play every day without batting an eye? Mentally drained? He had tremendous success in the past season and the 20 starts he made in 2021. How do you think Berrios or Kikuchi felt after their bad seasons last year? They worked on their stuff and got better. Those guys I would expect to be mentally drained.

My own opinion of the situation is a bit of a mishmash of what many have said.

1 - Not having enough minor league experience after college. Yes, COVID played a part of that as 2020 was effectively wiped out for minor leagues. I think they should have kept him in AAA in 2021 to prepare him better for the professional baseball life, including recovering from adversity and failure.

2 - Fitness is another one, I agree, I think he gained a few pounds, and he looked slower and velocity was down in spring training. The signs were there, whether the team ignored them thinking he would just be the guy that finished 3rd in Cy Young voting, who knows.

3 - Ego. I think he was a little too cocky and thought he was some seasoned veteran, yapping at players on the field, yapping at them during interviews and podcasts, etc... He hadn't earned his stripes yet, and he thought he was King Kong. That's fine and dandy when you're on your game, but when you struggle, all that is amplified and the criticism mounts, people aren't sorry for you but they are saying "ha, he had it coming to him". There were many examples of that yesterday after the news broke. People sticking it to him, not being concerned that he can get his game back.

4 - Pitch clock. I think he is very much affected by it, Though he does seem to set early and wait out the clock till he throws, I think its simply to get the maximum time to get a few more breaths.

They need to address all those things. If fitness is a big part of it, i wouldn't expect him to be back anytime soon. Big guy like that doesn't just fix his conditioning in a few weeks.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I haven't heard one way or another whether Manoah has lost velocity and/or movement. If either or both of those things are the case, this treatment is a bandaid for some other inevitability to do with shoulder/elbow issues. I'm still not sure that wasn't actually what happened with Halladay all those many years ago and he both self-healed and adjusted his delivery to a motion that promoted durability.

he has lost some velocity and spin rate along with very poor command. All of that suggests either a problem with mechanics or an issue with a nagging injury or poor conditioning.

The first step IMO is losing weight. That alone might help improve his results but beyond that he needs to learn to make adjustments and possibly develop a new pitch that isn’t difficult to throw for strikes. His slider has just been awful this year and if he can’t locate his fastball then he’s not even a major league pitcher. In terms of mechanics it seems that he’s falling away from the mound to the first base side. Basically he’s throwing off balance and that could be impacting his pitches. Not sure how he got into this habit. It may be his attempt to improve the movement on his pitches but it actually does the opposite. It might also be an attempt to reduce pain which if the case might require an MRI to diagnose.

Kirk can’t handle him. That’s obvious at this point. He was doing better with Danny Jansen until Jansen got injured.

 

[MikeK]

Fitness is important, but that is so far down the list of importance with Manoah. There have been plenty of big men throughout the years who were down right dominant and all looked like they lived on big macs. Manoah is not that out of shape. He has a serious mental issue going on that need to be completely broken down and rebuilt. That will be the biggest and probably the hardest hurdle to overcome. After that he needs to work on his command and technique.

I'll be honest, I am not as optimistic as some seem to be around here. This is not going to be an easy or a quick fix. I wouldn't factor Manoah into the foreseeable future for Toronto. Unless a miracle happens, I don't think he's in the plans for a long time.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Fitness is important, but that is so far down the list of importance with Manoah. There have been plenty of big men throughout the years who were down right dominant and all looked like they lived on big macs. Manoah is not that out of shape. He has a serious mental issue going on that need to be completely broken down and rebuilt. That will be the biggest and probably the hardest hurdle to overcome. After that he needs to work on his command and technique.

I'll be honest, I am not as optimistic as some seem to be around here. This is not going to be an easy or a quick fix. I wouldn't factor Manoah into the foreseeable future for Toronto. Unless a miracle happens, I don't think he's in the plans for a long time.

Sure, it’s possible this is it for him. We have seen pitchers have a hot season or 2 then never to be heard from again. Ricky Romero, Gustavo Chacin come to mind. I am not an expert on pitching, so I guess I will just watch and see what happens. Nothing any of us fans can do anyway.

 

[MK78]

Kirk can’t handle him. That’s obvious at this point. He was doing better with Danny Jansen until Jansen got injured.

Kirk handled him fine last year. But Kirk himself isn't a "physical specimen" and has also gotten slower this year, and that probably added to Manoah's issues runners stealing on him big time.

Jansen only worked with him one game, too small of a sample size.

 

[MikeK]

Sure, it’s possible this is it for him. We have seen pitchers have a hot season or 2 then never to be heard from again. Ricky Romero, Gustavo Chacin come to mind. I am not an expert on pitching, so I guess I will just watch and see what happens. Nothing any of us fans can do anyway.

The sad part of this reality is that it's very likely Toronto and their fans will not get to see the turnaround if there is to be one. Chances are this is a long work in progress project and the Jays will move on from him before it's completed.

 

[Suntouchable13]

The sad part of this reality is that it's very likely Toronto and their fans will not get to see the turnaround if there is to be one. Chances are this is a long work in progress project and the Jays will move on from him before it's completed.

But then again, he could have a Roy Halladay type of turnaround. We don’t know. I am just hoping for the best.

 

[MikeK]

But then again, he could have a Roy Halladay type of turnaround. We don’t know. I am just hoping for the best.

Totally.

 

[Eyedea]

he has lost some velocity and spin rate along with very poor command.

His slider sure but everything else is the same or better than the previous year. The slider wasn't slidering enough for him and he wasn't able to make competitive pitches to get guys out. It was astonishing to see Manoah consistently get into 0-2 counts only to walk the guy or give up a base hit.

 

[Eyedea]

I know Chapman has cooled off considerably but I went and looked at the O's offence and noticed Jorge Mateo is down to a 77 wRC+. After putting up a 188 wRC+ for the first month of the season he's had a -10 since May 1st. Oof

 

[RoadWarrior]

His slider sure but everything else is the same or better than the previous year. The slider wasn't slidering enough for him and he wasn't able to make competitive pitches to get guys out. It was astonishing to see Manoah consistently get into 0-2 counts only to walk the guy or give up a base hit.

His velocity is down on his fastball as well. Not just his slider.

IMO he’s suffering from fatigue induced by excess body fat which has caused him to throw slightly off balance and lose both spin and velocity.

The blue jays should have suspended Kirk for his weight and put Vladdy and Manoah on a cardio workout and diet plan.… presuming they still have a strength and conditioning coach.

There’s a singular reason why all 3 are failing this season. The fat acceptance ideology obviously doesn’t work in professional sports. The blue jays are at risk of becoming a joke in Major League Baseball.

 

[Blitzkrug]

I know Chapman has cooled off considerably but I went and looked at the O's offence and noticed Jorge Mateo is down to a 77 wRC+. After putting up a 188 wRC+ for the first month of the season he's had a -10 since May 1st. Oof

Yeah a lot of people saw the Mateo cool down coming but there was a lot of those same people were hoping "maybe he's figured out how to hit competently?"

Nope. No he did not.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

His velocity is down on his fastball as well. Not just his slider.

IMO he’s suffering from fatigue induced by excess body fat which has caused him to throw slightly off balance and lose both spin and velocity.

The blue jays should have suspended Kirk for his weight and put Vladdy and Manoah on a cardio workout and diet plan.… presuming they still have a strength and conditioning coach.

There’s a singular reason why all 3 are failing this season. The fat acceptance ideology obviously doesn’t work in professional sports. The blue jays are at risk of becoming a joke in Major League Baseball.

This is such a vast over simplification of what is going on with Manoah. It is like people think he needs to meet a treadmill and all of a sudden all his problems will be fixed. That isn't to say he shouldn't get in shape or Kirk but like both of those guys were "fat" last season and it didn't seem to hold them back from having successful seasons. Leads me to believe just seeing a fat person struggling and saying that is the problem might be slightly surface level.....while I do generally agree that people that are being paid to be professional athletes being in the shape you would expect out of someone playing RF in a over 50 slob ball league is embarrassing.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

His velocity is down on his fastball as well. Not just his slider.

IMO he’s suffering from fatigue induced by excess body fat which has caused him to throw slightly off balance and lose both spin and velocity.

The blue jays should have suspended Kirk for his weight and put Vladdy and Manoah on a cardio workout and diet plan.… presuming they still have a strength and conditioning coach.

There’s a singular reason why all 3 are failing this season. The fat acceptance ideology obviously doesn’t work in professional sports. The blue jays are at risk of becoming a joke in Major League Baseball.

Your obsession with weight is becoming truly concerning.

 

[Discoverer]

The sad part of this reality is that it's very likely Toronto and their fans will not get to see the turnaround if there is to be one. Chances are this is a long work in progress project and the Jays will move on from him before it's completed.

How is that "very likely"?

 

[Eyedea]

His velocity is down on his fastball as well. Not just his slider.

IMO he’s suffering from fatigue induced by excess body fat which has caused him to throw slightly off balance and lose both spin and velocity.

The blue jays should have suspended Kirk for his weight and put Vladdy and Manoah on a cardio workout and diet plan.… presuming they still have a strength and conditioning coach.

There’s a singular reason why all 3 are failing this season. The fat acceptance ideology obviously doesn’t work in professional sports. The blue jays are at risk of becoming a joke in Major League Baseball.

Framber Valdez is an obese pitcher and he's just doing fine, if not better than before despite the pitch clock. He had a similar uptick in innings, his velocity has increased again after a decline a few years ago, and he almost exclusively gets his results with his sinker. Vladdy has a higher sprint speed than guys like Yordan, (Corey) Seager, Alonso, Devers, Arenado, Bregman... plus his peripherals are way better than last year and closely align to his 2021 breakout.

 

[RoadWarrior]

This is such a vast over simplification of what is going on with Manoah. It is like people think he needs to meet a treadmill and all of a sudden all his problems will be fixed. That isn't to say he shouldn't get in shape or Kirk but like both of those guys were "fat" last season and it didn't seem to hold them back from having successful seasons. Leads me to believe just seeing a fat person struggling and saying that is the problem might be slightly surface level.....while I do generally agree that people that are being paid to be professional athletes being in the shape you would expect out of someone playing RF in a over 50 slob ball league is embarrassing.

Kirk especially appears to be heavier than last season. He missed spring training and it’s obvious that he shouldnt have started the season in April until he did something about his weight.

I think Kirk, Manoah and Vladdy could be perennial all stars IF they actually got into shape. Being overweight is absolutely holding them back. It’s not impeding their strength so much as it’s reducing their endurance. Carrying extra weight is tiring. That’s just common sense. None of them can maintain their performance levels playing full time over the coarse of a season because of their weight. Manoah and Kirk both slipped in the second half last year.

this notion that because they partially “succeeded“ being over weight last season therefore weight cannot be a factor is a nonsensical argument. The thinking instead should be just how much better could they have been last year if they were actually in shape.

The Blue Jays have failed these players by coddling them and by extension they’ve failed the fans.

KK should be working with these guys full time.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Fitness is important, but that is so far down the list of importance with Manoah. There have been plenty of big men throughout the years who were down right dominant and all looked like they lived on big macs. Manoah is not that out of shape. He has a serious mental issue going on that need to be completely broken down and rebuilt. That will be the biggest and probably the hardest hurdle to overcome. After that he needs to work on his command and technique.

I'll be honest, I am not as optimistic as some seem to be around here. This is not going to be an easy or a quick fix. I wouldn't factor Manoah into the foreseeable future for Toronto. Unless a miracle happens, I don't think he's in the plans for a long time.

There is one difference here though i agree it might not entirely be his weight that's the issue.

Those big dudes of the past didn't have a pitch clock to contend with. They've shown a couple shots of Manoah on the mound this season and he looks rough.