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Blue Jays Discussion: Manoah gets the Halladay treatment (optioned to rookie-ball to try and fix him)

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Eyedea said:
What has Moreno shown this year to prove he’s an AS catcher? Walks down, strikeouts up, unsustainably high BABIP and his wRC+ is still under 100. Sure, Gurriel has been hot but with him having a down year in 2022 and only having one year remaining on his contract his value was never high to begin with.

Jays have been known to sell high or try to recuperate value for prospects that have plateaued or started to show red flags. Martin, Groshans, Moreno, all with obvious power issues. I really like Moreno and expect him to bounce back but I also expect Varsho to contribute too.
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if it were a trade of Moreno for Varsho straight up then it’s one thing but to just give away Gurriel was completely asinine.

You can talk about Moreno’s power issues all you want but Varsho will probably never hit .250 in the big leagues. That essentially means he’s a defensive specialist who cannot play every day against lefties. Not much value there.
 
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RoadWarrior said:
if it were a trade of Moreno for Varsho straight up then it’s one thing but to just give away Gurriel was completely asinine.

You can talk about Moreno’s power issues all you want but Varsho will probably never hit .250 in the big leagues. That essentially means he’s a defensive specialist who cannot play every day against lefties. Not much value there.
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Where are you playing Gurriel? He made it clear last year that he can't play the outfield defensively (he's regressing from poor). When he's hot, his bat would play at 1B/DH, but he's streaky.
 
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RoadWarrior said:
if it were a trade of Moreno for Varsho straight up then it’s one thing but to just give away Gurriel was completely asinine.

You can talk about Moreno’s power issues all you want but Varsho will probably never hit .250 in the big leagues. That essentially means he’s a defensive specialist who cannot play every day against lefties. Not much value there.
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I can understand the thought behind having to include Gurriel though. Varsho had already contributed 1 2+ WAR season, and another 4+ WAR season in the majors, Moreno hasn't. And will probably never hit .250? I couldn't care less if he hits .200 if that comes with a 120+ wRC+. Nevertheless with his batted ball profile there's a better chance he hits .250+ in a season than Moreno has of getting a .150+ ISO.
 
Jays suck right now. Absolutely suck right now but it isnt because of the moves they made last off-season;

Departures:
Gurriel: 1.7 bWAR (156 OPS+)
Moreno: 1.0 bWAR (95 OPS+)
Teoscar: 0.6 bWAR (92 OPS+)
Stripling: -0.6 bWAR on the IL
Total: 2.7 bWAR

Additions:
Kiermaier: 2.3 bWAR (135 OPS+)
Varsho: 1.1 bWAR (81 OPS+)
Bassitt: 0.7 bWAR
Belt: 0.2 bWAR (117 OPS+)
Swanson: 0.3 bWAR
Total: 4.6 bWAR

Kiermaier, Belt and Varsho are similar, if not better than Gurriel, Moreno and Teoscar with the bat. Add in defense, it isnt even fair. Teo is leading the league with 68 Ks and 3rd last with 7 walks and has the worst BB/K in the league. When Gurriel comes back to being a 120ish OPS+ hitter with his defense and Varsho slightly above league average with his defense, we are talking a 2-3 WAR difference in Varsho's favor. Moreno will always be the biggest loss but keep an eye on his power, it has been non existent since that thumb injury. Carried a .500+ slugginh from 2018 to 2021. Then barely over .400 in 2022 and now .377 and .374 in the majors. And Stripling was moved to the pen 2 starts into the season, then back to the rotation with his 7 ERA because SF had no choice and now is on the IL.
 
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Eyedea said:
Tiedemann's up next year for sure, if not later this season.
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ok well then it is only 1 more wasted year this year and likely next year before he is a top of rotation lefty right? until he starts to pitch for me this year is a waste of time for me to watch them
 
JT AM da real deal said:
ok well then it is only 1 more wasted year this year and likely next year before he is a top of rotation lefty right? until he starts to pitch for me this year is a waste of time for me to watch them
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I still wouldn't write off this season due to a bad stretch. The middle bats (Bo, Vlad, Chapman, Varsho) have gone cold at the most inopportune time, but the Jays SPs are still better than Baltimore and Boston's, and their offence is comparable to them + Yankees so far this year. One hot stretch and vice versa a cold one for any of those teams and the Jays are right back in the thick of things.
 
Eyedea said:
I still wouldn't write off this season due to a bad stretch. The middle bats (Bo, Vlad, Chapman, Varsho) have gone cold at the most inopportune time, but the Jays SPs are still better than Baltimore and Boston's, and their offence is comparable to them + Yankees so far this year. One hot stretch and vice versa a cold one for any of those teams and the Jays are right back in the thick of things.
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Yeah regular season they'll be fine .. bottom level playoff team .. but my interest is only post season stuff .. and until we have 2 guys a righty and a lefty who can mow down Yanks Tampa Os in a short series then waste of my time .. lots of middling pitchers works in regular season .. in playoffs it comes down to top end pitching to win
 
Bjindaho said:
Where are you playing Gurriel? He made it clear last year that he can't play the outfield defensively (he's regressing from poor). When he's hot, his bat would play at 1B/DH, but he's streaky.
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LF/DH or 1B to spell Guerrero. Bo is a liability defensively but his bat more than makes up the difference. Surely you aren’t suggesting Bo get traded for a 4th outfielder.
 
Eyedea said:
I still wouldn't write off this season due to a bad stretch. The middle bats (Bo, Vlad, Chapman, Varsho) have gone cold at the most inopportune time, but the Jays SPs are still better than Baltimore and Boston's, and their offence is comparable to them + Yankees so far this year. One hot stretch and vice versa a cold one for any of those teams and the Jays are right back in the thick of things.
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They’re done. This team just isn’t competitive against division rivals. They have decent but not overwhelming starting pitching but the bullpen is very thin and they removed to much thump out of the lineup in the offseason. One of the lowest HR totals in the majors. Varsho is a bust. Kirk and Vlady are grossly overweight. Manoah isn’t far behind.

until they add depth to the bullpen, put KK in charge of a conditioning program and acquire a replacement for Gurriel or Hernandez then I’m wasting my time watching this .500 baseball team.
 
RoadWarrior said:
They’re done. This team just isn’t competitive against division rivals. They have decent but not overwhelming starting pitching but the bullpen is very thin and they removed to much thump out of the lineup in the offseason. One of the lowest HR totals in the majors. Varsho is a bust. Kirk and Vlady are grossly overweight. Manoah isn’t far behind.

until they add depth to the bullpen, put KK in charge of a conditioning program and acquire a replacement for Gurriel or Hernandez then I’m wasting my time watching this .500 baseball team.
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Thanks for the input on the team's deficiencies, see you next year RoadWarrior.
 
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Eyedea said:
What has Moreno shown this year to prove he’s an AS catcher? Walks down, strikeouts up, unsustainably high BABIP and his wRC+ is still under 100. Sure, Gurriel has been hot but with him having a down year in 2022 and only having one year remaining on his contract his value was never high to begin with.

Jays have been known to sell high or try to recuperate value for prospects that have plateaued or started to show red flags. Martin, Groshans, Moreno, all with obvious power issues. I really like Moreno and expect him to bounce back but I also expect Varsho to contribute too. It’s weird to say Moreno and Varsho are on two opposite ends of the spectrum when they’re both in the same WAR range.
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You have to remember you're arguing with people who only look at counting stats and barely watch games
 
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JT AM da real deal said:
Get rid of da cheapoos from Cleveland please .. get some top end baseball mgrs who know pitching .. and get us a top of rotation lefty so we can compete in AL east .. otherwise this core is wasted much like Leafs core
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You do know they built the vaunted Cleveland pitching staff back in the day....right?

At least blame them for things other than what your imagination believes.
 
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Eyedea said:
That’s the thing, Moreno’s counting stats show bupkis. But because he slaps singles all of a sudden he’s as good of a hitter as Bichette?
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In people's minds? Yes because of the .300 average. Even though his wRC+, OPS are below league average and Varsho is actually currently worth more fWAR wise those stats don't matter WHEN YOU HIT FOR AVERAGE, BAYBEE.
 
kb said:
You do know they built the vaunted Cleveland pitching staff back in the day....right?

At least blame them for things other than what your imagination believes.
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You mean da Indians?????????????? from Cleveland?????????????? vaunted?????????????????? omg this is a team with a worse championship history than our Leafs .. 1948???????????????????? .. i thought 1967 was brutal ..... never put anything past Ed Rogers .. what a real winner .. always goes with cheapskates .. he will never change
 
JT AM da real deal said:
You mean da Indians?????????????? from Cleveland?????????????? vaunted?????????????????? omg this is a team with a worse championship history than our Leafs .. 1948???????????????????? .. i thought 1967 was brutal ..... never put anything past Ed Rogers .. what a real winner .. always goes with cheapskates .. he will never change
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Do you people actually bother to pay attention to the league at all or do you just need to rant at something now that the Leafs have been sent home packing?

Shapiro and Atkins helped oversee the building of two legitimate contenders in Cleveland. That 2007 team should have won a world series and then a lot of the parts they put in place came within a nose hair of winning in 2016.

RoadWarrior said:
LF/DH or 1B to spell Guerrero. Bo is a liability defensively but his bat more than makes up the difference. Surely you aren’t suggesting Bo get traded for a 4th outfielder.
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You call Bo a liability defensively and just pretend Gurriel is fine in that regard? Oh the ironing is delicious.
 
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Puckstuff said:
I'll throw out a hockey analogy here. The Florida Panthers weren't a very good regular season team this season and only made it into the playoffs by 1 point... but their roster is better built for the playoffs and are on the verge of a cup final. The Jays need to make it to the playoffs first like the Panthers, but I feel if we make it to the playoffs we're better built for the playoffs compared with last season with improved defence and pitching, even if our regular season isn't as good. What happens right now is pretty irrelevant if we make it to the playoffs. And there's so much baseball left that we could get in.
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The Jays WILL NOT make the playoffs with 'bozo the clown' as their skipper

..and even if they were to squeak into the playoffs (which I highly doubt) their 'dumber than a bag of hammers' manager will screw it up like he did last year
 
Eyedea said:
The same people that throw shade about Shapiro/Atkins coming from a cheapskate org be the same ones that would throw blank cheques at Rays management.
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There is another LOSER org Tampa OMG .. they have never won anything and they never will either .. cheaper than cheap .. find/develop young arms and then they go to Dodgers Yanks and Red Sox to win world series .. Jays need to do same thing take 2 or 3 great young arms from cheapo teams like Tampa/Cleveland around 28 and then win world series .. baseball is setup for $$$ to rule over da minor league teams .. Ed has taken us to minor league side of things
 
Remember when we had loads of top prospects. Now have 1 and our team sits in last place. Pathetic. Period
 
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