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Blue Jays Discussion: Manoah gets the Halladay treatment (optioned to rookie-ball to try and fix him)

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Discoverer said:
His arm is one of the weaker ones in the league, yet he's gotten significant value out of it since becoming an outfielder... he leads outfielders in DRS's version of throwing runs saved over the last two years and is near the top in UZR's version.

I think last night's OF assist is a perfect example of his strength in throwing: he read the ball well, ran a perfect route to cut it off before it hit the wall, made a smooth, quick transition from fielding to throwing, and made an accurate throw with a good bounce for the 2B to be able to apply the tag.

Compare that to a guy like Gurriel... he's the complete opposite but still gets decent value because he has an absolute cannon. He'll make some throws that Varsho wouldn't be able to make, but there's also no chance he makes that play last night because he would have been too slow getting to it and would have had to play it off the wall.
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It's interesting with Varsho because the guy was pretty much exclusively catching in the minors (although he also played OF/2B/3B in college and summer ball). He was also not terrible at catching base stealers. I realize the arm strength has always been fringe but one might figure it would play up pretty much anywhere except the left side of the infield. Still, he gets positive results with it.
 
Suntouchable13 said:
I disagree that any offence from Varsho is just a bonus. They absolutely need him to produce with the bat as well. He is hitting right in the heart of the order.
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He's been getting babip'd for sure. He hasn't hit the ball particularly hard but he has the perfect line drive approach for them to fall in and they just haven't often enough.
 
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Discoverer said:
His arm is one of the weaker ones in the league, yet he's gotten significant value out of it since becoming an outfielder... he leads outfielders in DRS's version of throwing runs saved over the last two years and is near the top in UZR's version.

I think last night's OF assist is a perfect example of his strength in throwing: he read the ball well, ran a perfect route to cut it off before it hit the wall, made a smooth, quick transition from fielding to throwing, and made an accurate throw with a good bounce for the 2B to be able to apply the tag.

Compare that to a guy like Gurriel... he's the complete opposite but still gets decent value because he has an absolute cannon. He'll make some throws that Varsho wouldn't be able to make, but there's also no chance he makes that play last night because he would have been too slow getting to it and would have had to play it off the wall.
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Good to see. From just a visual aspect he has a bit of an odd delivery. And didn’t appear to have a power arm.
 
Blitzkrug said:
But i was told by top men the trade was horrendous and franchise crippling!
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Wait...what?

At the time of the trade the opinions on it were mixed.

Right now...it does look disastrous. Moreno has .746 OPS in his rookie year as a catcher, Gurriel has an OPS of .929. Varsho has an OPS of .676, and I don't care how good his D is in left field, that's horrid.


Obviously, it's still super early and things can change. But I don't see a reason to be smug about that deal right now, because it's looking horrific.
 
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Kurtz said:
Wait...what?

At the time of the trade the opinions on it were mixed.

Right now...it does look disastrous. Moreno has .746 OPS in his rookie year as a catcher, Gurriel has an OPS of .929. Varsho has an OPS of .676, and I don't care how good his D is in left field, that's horrid.


Obviously, it's still super early and things can change. But I don't see a reason to be smug about that deal right now, because it's looking horrific.
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And Gurriel is the worst defensive outfielder in baseball by a country mile.
 
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Bjindaho said:
And Gurriel is the worst defensive outfielder in baseball by a country mile.
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Even if that were true, we're still talking about left field.

In a vacuum, would you prefer a .929 OPS LF with terrible defense, or a .676 LF with excellent defense?
 
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Bjindaho said:
He has a 28% K rate (same as last year).

I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but BABIP doesn't count any HR so he is 5 for 62 for BABIP. That being said, he's traded line drives for fly balls so far this year, which would hurt his BABIP.

He's also hitting a higher percentage of his fly balls out of the park FWIW.

This is all small sample though. In a perfect world, I'd love to see him brought to the complex to work on his 2 strike approach so that he can implement it in a game situation shortly after.
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Yeah I know HRs don't count. What's crazy is the amount of HRs it takes to get a player with a .081 BABIP all the way up to essentially a league average hitter. More than 2 thirds of your hits being homeruns is absolutely bonkers.
 
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Kurtz said:
Even if that were true, we're still talking about left field.

In a vacuum, would you prefer a .929 OPS LF with terrible defense, or a .676 LF with excellent defense?
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I don't understand the "it's just left field" argument. A run saved is a run saved, and he's been elite in LF and when filling in in CF.
 
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TheBeastCoast said:
The Orioles being as good as they are and having the top prospect in all of baseball is highly annoying.
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I’d actually be happy for them if they were in another division.

Outside of the brief blip with those Machado/Jones/Hardy/Markakis they’ve basically stunk since the 1990s as a good market with good fans and a good stadium but some of the worst ownership in sports.
 
Discoverer said:
I don't understand the "it's just left field" argument. A run saved is a run saved, and he's been elite in LF and when filling in in CF.
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And he’ll be the starting CF following this year. He’s really only an LFer at the moment because the Kiermaier signing has worked out tremendously thus far.
 
TheBeastCoast said:
The Orioles being as good as they are and having the top prospect in all of baseball is highly annoying.
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Holliday? He looks great, but they also just had arguably the best prospect in Gunnar Henderson and he hasn’t lit the league on fire. Sometimes it takes time for top talents to make their mark (looking at Vladdy), and by then the window could be coming to a close. They have a great base but with all that talent comes the challenge of retaining players and sustaining competitiveness.
 
Eyedea said:
Holliday? He looks great, but they also just had arguably the best prospect in Gunnar Henderson and he hasn’t lit the league on fire. Sometimes it takes time for top talents to make their mark (looking at Vladdy), and by then the window could be coming to a close. They have a great base but with all that talent comes the challenge of retaining players and sustaining competitiveness.
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And also attracting free agents.
 
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shaner89 said:
Ya and just ignore stats. Good idea

And I’m ok with Varsho. He plays hard. However playing hard and production are different worlds. We likely lost a generational catcher…. For a guy who can play hard?
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LOL Generational Catcher. How was Danny J this week? Moreno will be a solid catcher, He will never hit for any power and The combo of Kirk (He will figure it out) and Jansen are more than enough to worry about losing him. Varsho is solid and his approach and fielding alone are an upgrade on some we had in the past.

Love Moreno but Generation is insane.

Bjindaho said:
And Gurriel is the worst defensive outfielder in baseball by a country mile.
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Agreed BUT has a great arm.
 
ktownhockey said:
LOL Generational Catcher. How was Danny J this week? Moreno will be a solid catcher, He will never hit for any power and The combo of Kirk (He will figure it out) and Jansen are more than enough to worry about losing him. Varsho is solid and his approach and fielding alone are an upgrade on some we had in the past.

Love Moreno but Generation is insane.


Agreed BUT has a great arm.
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Jansen had 2 hits this week does he get a cookie for that? He’s hitting .188. Moreno is hitting .321. There is no comparison at all. Night an day. I’ll give Jansen props for 2 clutch hits though. Kirk needs to figure out it and soon because he’s lost.
 
Kloffenstein's performance has been very suprising and he could be finally reaching his projected upside.

Screenshot (825).png
 
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shaner89 said:
Jansen had 2 hits this week does he get a cookie for that? He’s hitting .188. Moreno is hitting .321. There is no comparison at all. Night an day. I’ll give Jansen props for 2 clutch hits though. Kirk needs to figure out it and soon because he’s lost.
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You really should try learning a bit about baseball. It's a really fun game.

Maybe try looking at more than batting average because it sure seems like that's the only thing you care about. Like... what do you think of a hitter with a .340 OBP and a .400 SLG?
 
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