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Blue Jays Discussion: Manoah gets the Halladay treatment (optioned to rookie-ball to try and fix him)

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In 3 years time Vladdy and Bo are going to be top 10 for the Jays in a lot of counting stats. Vladdy already has a solid crack at top 10 for HRs this year. Bo has a chance to really climb the WAR leaderboards just purely due to his offensive package at a premium position. Vladdy on the other hand would likely be a slow, consistent rise to the top a la Delgado (largely due to positional value). Both will need to sign an extension to have a chance at eclipsing Bautista/Delgado/Fernandez, unless we see a championship or two these next couple of years. Even then, do the Expos/Nats hold a Soto, Rendon or Turner to a higher regard than Vladdy Sr? That's basically the bar that's been set by the Jays trio. This also isn't taking Halladay or Stieb into account who will be untouched barring a long-term extension for Bo and/or Vladdy.
 
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What a difference between Baseball Reference and Fangraphs.

The Jays are 15th in Def but 3rd in fDRS. The Jays are 4th Total Zone rating and 2nd in rDRS.

Fangraphs has Vladdy around mid pack whereas Baseball Reference has him 4th.

Varsho is midpack by FG and #1 by BR lol
 
Bjindaho said:
What a difference between Baseball Reference and Fangraphs.

The Jays are 15th in Def but 3rd in fDRS. The Jays are 4th Total Zone rating and 2nd in rDRS.

Fangraphs has Vladdy around mid pack whereas Baseball Reference has him 4th.

Varsho is midpack by FG and #1 by BR lol
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Reading up a little, our outfielders are actually hurt by the bigger outfield (they get negative UZR adjustments for all the balls that drop in if they aren't reasonably catchable). Our infielders also get hurt by shifting.

By TZR, the Jays have a top 5 player at every position except 2B (Espinal is T7 with Biggio and Merrifield a little lower where the ranks are also bunched up), SS (Bo is bottom half but not a lot of separation between him and top 10), CF (Kiermaier is T7)
 
Discoverer said:
You are unbelievably clueless about baseball. Good lord.
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I’m genuinely asking. Show me one. This has to be the worst bottom of the lineup.

Belt .160 just atrocious
Biggio lol. Is he under .100 now
Jansen .170
Espinal .170

There’s no way it gets worse then that
 
shaner89 said:
I’m genuinely asking. Show me one. This has to be the worst bottom of the lineup.

Belt .160 just atrocious
Biggio lol. Is he under .100 now
Jansen .170
Espinal .170

There’s no way it gets worse then that
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Don't worry, I didn't doubt how genuine you were being. But I'll give you some options:

Answer #1 - Learn some stats beyond batting average.

Answer #2 - We're a month into the season. Three of those guys were league average hitters last year and the other was one of the best hitters in the league.

Answer #3 - Is that from a specific game, or did you just pick some random Jays and call it the "bottom of the lineup"? Because it's not the bottom of the lineup tonight and it wasn't yesterday.

Answer #4 - Those four are 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th on the Jays in plate appearances. That's not the bottom of the lineup... that's their bench.

Answer #5 - The Jays have a 91 wRC+ from the bottom four in the lineup this year. That's 13th in the league. So yes, there are 17 teams who have a worse bottom four.
 
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Discoverer said:
Don't worry, I didn't doubt how genuine you were being. But I'll give you some options:

Answer #1 - Learn some stats beyond batting average.

Answer #2 - We're a month into the season. Three of those guys were league average hitters last year and the other was one of the best hitters in the league.

Answer #3 - Is that from a specific game, or did you just pick some random Jays and call it the "bottom of the lineup"? Because it's not the bottom of the lineup tonight and it wasn't yesterday.

Answer #4 - Those four are 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th on the Jays in plate appearances. That's not the bottom of the lineup... that's their bench.

Answer #5 - The Jays have a 91 wRC+ from the bottom four in the lineup this year. That's 13th in the league. So yes, there are 17 teams who have a worse bottom four.
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Ya that’s a good explanation. Thanks. Those guys are just terrible.
 
Vladdy's launch angle has entered the sweet spot territory and his peripherals are right there with his 2021 season. But, post-Yankees series he's been struggling despite hitting the ball even harder and having more of a line-drive centre field approach. Haven't really looked into his BIP events but his home/away splits have been drastic. Have the new wall dimensions had an affect on his home runs (no more laser shots into the BPs)?
 
For fun, any favourite Jays related commercials so far? I enjoyed the Jano Romano bobblehead day ad, and also “Come on, burger boy!” Vladdy is really funny.
 
Discoverer said:
Don't worry, I didn't doubt how genuine you were being. But I'll give you some options:

Answer #1 - Learn some stats beyond batting average.

Answer #2 - We're a month into the season. Three of those guys were league average hitters last year and the other was one of the best hitters in the league.

Answer #3 - Is that from a specific game, or did you just pick some random Jays and call it the "bottom of the lineup"? Because it's not the bottom of the lineup tonight and it wasn't yesterday.

Answer #4 - Those four are 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th on the Jays in plate appearances. That's not the bottom of the lineup... that's their bench.

Answer #5 - The Jays have a 91 wRC+ from the bottom four in the lineup this year. That's 13th in the league. So yes, there are 17 teams who have a worse bottom four.
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He just ignores context or is too stupid to understand it.

Espinal has never been a good bat. Even breaking in his calling card was his sterling defense. You can still get away with this in today's day ands age though i probably would have tried to move him after the all-star nod with the log jam the Jays have (see the current defending world champion Astros and Martin Maldonado)

Biggio i'm kinda over. That one i'll give him. Belt while still not good has looked better and there's still like 3 quarters of the season left.

Also going ignored in his stupidity is the fact Jansen obviously provides value behind the plate/calling games because the either the majority of the rotation or team seems to prefer him. (once again, see Martin Maldonado) That and he always, and i mean ALWAYS starts slow at the plate. If he was actually a fan he would know this.

BUT THEY'RE ALL COMPLETELY, UTTERLY TERRIBLE.
Suntouchable13 said:
For fun, any favourite Jays related commercials so far? I enjoyed the Jano Romano bobblehead day ad, and also “Come on, burger boy!” Vladdy is really funny.
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The smuckers one for sure. For some reason Vladdy going "heeheehee NAH!" gets me every time.

Likeable bunch of goofballs in that clubhouse for sure even with Gurriel and Hernandez gone.
 
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shaner89 said:
Ya that’s a good explanation. Thanks. Those guys are just terrible.
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They aren't terrible. They just don't have good batting average in the first month of a six-month season so far and bring value in other ways than just batting, but you can ignore context if you'd like. Come back in a couple months and let us know how terrible they are.
 
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I don't watch any live TV other than Jays or Leafs, so whatever commercials I see during the games is all I get to see, really...

And if I'm using the Sportsnet app it blanks out some commercials but not all.

I do like the Vladdy Burger Boy commercial.
 
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I've been pro-Merrifield for the 2B job but I also think Espinal has been pretty unlucky. If he could just stop pulling and start shooting oppo like Bo he'd get back to his 2021 production.
 
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Patmac40 said:
They aren't terrible. They just don't have good batting average in the first month of a six-month season so far and bring value in other ways than just batting, but you can ignore context if you'd like. Come back in a couple months and let us know how terrible they are.
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I’d love to know what value any of them bring.

Belt has zero power and can’t hit. Tons of ks no walks. Is he a gold glover? he doesn’t even play on the field. Zero value.
Biggio is laughable. I don’t need anyone to try and convince me he has any value.
Jansen I’ll agree he calls a great game and is great defensively. Putrid with the bat.
Espinal is a mess. Don’t see much value right now.
 
shaner89 said:
I’d love to know what value any of them bring.

Belt has zero power and can’t hit. Tons of ks no walks. Is he a gold glover? he doesn’t even play on the field. Zero value.
Biggio is laughable. I don’t need anyone to try and convince me he has any value.
Jansen I’ll agree he calls a great game and is great defensively. Putrid with the bat.
Espinal is a mess. Don’t see much value right now.
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So you just don't watch then. Got it.
 
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Patmac40 said:
They aren't terrible. They just don't have good batting average in the first month of a six-month season so far and bring value in other ways than just batting, but you can ignore context if you'd like. Come back in a couple months and let us know how terrible they are.
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I have whomever you're responding to on ignore, but I'm assuming that Belt has been brought up, and if you're not concerned over the fact that the 35 year old Belt has struck out in nearly half of his at bats and is now being pinch hit and sat against righties...I'll have some of what you're having.
 
shaner89 said:
I’m genuinely asking. Show me one. This has to be the worst bottom of the lineup.

Belt .160 just atrocious
Biggio lol. Is he under .100 now
Jansen .170
Espinal .170

There’s no way it gets worse then that
Click to expand...

You are complaining about the 3 bench players and the Jays worse starter. And your numbers are slightly off for Espinal and Biggio;

Espinal: .186
Jansen: .170
Belt: .161
Biggio: .122

For comparison sake, (if you want to use BA, i wouldnt but here it is) the Texas Rangers have the 2nd best offense in the league - here are their worst starter and 3 bench players;

Sandy Leon: .214
Bubba Thompson: .200
Brad Miller: .179
Josh Smith: .143

And since you asked, it can get worse:

Royals:
Melendez: .174
Massey: .167
Dozier: .161
JBJ: .159

Here are 3 of Miami's starters:
Segura: .200
Garcia: .188
Stallings: .136

Cleveland:
Brenan: .200
Aria: .179
Gonzalez: .174
Gallagher: .083

Oakland:
Peterson: .200
Smith: .197
Kemp: .163
Diaz: .153

And if you want to compare them to other teams in our division:

Baltimore:
Santander: .213
McCann: .194
Henderson: .189
Stowers: .125

Boston:
Dalbec: .222
Refsnyder: .196
Chang: .136
Casas: .128

Yankees:
Higashioka: .195
Cabrera: .193
IKF: .189
Peraza: .188
Hicks: .156
Cordero: .151
Donaldson: .125

3 Starters and all of the Yankees bench is hitting below the Mendoza line.

In many cases, similar or worse.
 
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