Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[Peen]

I'm just wondering if the big trade win you're thinking of is an addition up front or addition on the blueline. Up front I think we're missing an elite 3C but there is talent up front so I'm not sure if adding say another top 6 winger would do much. Wondering what you are thinking of here.

Primarily the first two. The shifting of two of Garland/Boeser/Hoglander into guys with a bit more jam is also important and something I’ve highlighted as “the next steps” after moving Myers, but can be executed in season or next summer rather than a now move.

 

[MS]

You're the one who routinely loses his shit on this topic. You can't deal rationally with the idea that acquiring Hronek or any player in that category for that cost was a bad idea; that is, you can't simply disagree with it. You lose your shit about it, create a straw man about it, then project your tantrum onto anyone who disagrees with you.

Moving this here.

No, I can't deal with the hordes of clueless people pushing the pure fantasy notion of 'stepping back'.

It wasn't a thing. It was never going to be a thing.

This team had already taken a disastrous step back 18 months earlier that nearly broke the core here. Coming off a 92-point season (a total that makes the playoffs 3 of the previous 4 seasons) there was no f***ing way in hell, ever, that any ownership group in the history of sports was going to sign off on taking a step back/rebuilding/tanking/retooling or anything of that sort that involved intentionally missing the playoffs in 22-23.

If you think this was an actual option, YOU. ARE. WRONG. Unequivocally. And again, I don't really know what more to say.

In terms of Hronek, absolutely you can argue whether he was the right choice. We'll see. You can argue the process here and the moves that were made until the cows come home, and obviously some mistakes were made. But anyone arguing for hording picks and pick surpluses and steps back and Bedard mini-tanks and Pettersson happily staying through it simply has no clue how sports works. It is a bad, wrong take.

And I would have thought the recent Pettersson interview stuff would have made this crystal-clear to everyone. But instead people are doubling down on fantasy.

 

[Diogenes92]

@MS Doesn't mean that the retool path is the right one to take, whether there was ever a chance of a rebuild happening or not.

If it bothers you when the rebuild fans continue to bring it up throughout the season, then you're going to continue to get annoyed quite a lot.

The only way the rebuild crowd shuts up is if the Canucks show some real progress. And that means playoff success. Winning a round and not being swept would be a good start.

 

[MS]

Doesn't mean that the retool path is the right one to take, whether there was ever a chance of a rebuild happening or not.

If it bothers you when the rebuild fans continue to bring it up throughout the season, then you're going to continue to get annoyed quite a lot.

The only way the rebuild crowd shuts up is if the Canucks show some real progress. And that means playoff success. Winning a round and not being swept would be a good start.

It bothers me in the same way as if a huge percentage of the fanbase were demanding that we needed to trade for Connor McDavid or hire Babcock/Quenneville or something else that was never going to happen, and then freaking out when it didn't happen.

It doesn't matter whether the plan works or not (which will be down to execution). There was only ever one general way to go from where we were at, and that's where they went. And it boggles my mind that people do not understand this. Because it's simple, and it's obvious, and it's fundamental.

If Allvin/Rutherford had proposed to ownership that the team do what this segment of the fanbase are demanding should have happened, they would have been fired on the spot. As I keep saying, it isn't how sports works. Teams in competitive positions do not just decide to take 'steps back' and intentionally miss the playoffs from anything resembling the position we were in.

 

[Diogenes92]

It bothers me in the same way as if a huge percentage of the fanbase were demanding that we needed to trade for Connor McDavid or hire Babcock/Quenneville or something else that was never going to happen, and then freaking out when it didn't happen.

It doesn't matter whether the plan works or not (which will be down to execution). There was only ever one general way to go from where we were at, and that's where they went. And it boggles my mind that people do not understand this. Because it's simple, and it's obvious, and it's fundamental.

Simply not true at all. Its totally subjective and not nearly as clear cut as you are making it out to be.

Ownership constantly making the wrong calls on organizational direction (if the goal is to win a cup) doesn't completely nix other opinions on what the team should've or should currently be doing to compete.

You can try to cancel dissenting opinions all you like, but it doesn't make this patchwork plan a success or the "only" path forward.

 

[MS]

Simply not true at all. Its totally subjective and not nearly as clear cut as you are making it out to be.

Ownership constantly making the wrong calls on organizational direction (if the goal is to win a cup) doesn't completely nix other opinions on what the team should've or should currently be doing to compete.

You can try to cancel dissenting opinions all you like, but it doesn't make this patchwork plan a success or the "only" path forward.

No, it's 100% true. And it's mindboggling that people don't understand this. It's like I'm talking to 14 year olds who started following sports a month ago and have never held a job or been around people in any meaningful sense.

They could have done a bunch of different things in the execution. Released Boeser. Traded Miller and kept Horvat. Targeted a different young D than Hronek. Whatever. You'll get no argument from me that you can question the execution of the process.

But if you think that taking a step back (small or large) and missing the playoffs intentionally was even remotely on the table, YOU. ARE. WRONG.

And again, this isn't just our stupid owner. This is any owner. Is Calgary tanking from a far more dubious position? Is Pittsburgh rushing into a rebuild despite an ancient core missing the playoffs last year? Did Florida take a 'step back' in 2020 when they were in basically the identical position to what we're in now?

There are tens or hundreds of millions of dollars riding on this. Every person in the organization has their careers riding on this. Even if statistically if you ran it through a computer simulation that you're slightly more likely to win a Cup with a 'step back' it just isn't how it works in real life. And if you don't understand this, I don't know what to say.

 

[credulous]

But if you think that taking a step back (small or large) and missing the playoffs intentionally was even remotely on the table, YOU. ARE. WRONG.

you're still arguing against a strawman

there's a huge difference between intentionally tanking and accepting you are not in a competitive window and focusing on accumulating assets rather than spending them to lose less badly

i won't deny there are people who think pettersson, hughes, miller, horvat, kuzmenko and demko should have all been traded for draft picks but calling posters who were against the dickinson dump, the miller contract, the boeser contract, the hronek trade, the short sighted kuzmenko contract and buying out oel because they think they were poor moves that bring marginal present value for future costs is "video games" is exactly a disagreement in execution. despite that you continue to rail against those posters

 

[Diogenes92]

No, it's 100% true. And it's mindboggling that people don't understand this. It's like I'm talking to 14 year olds who started following sports a month ago and have never held a job or been around people in any meaningful sense.

They could have done a bunch of different things in the execution. Released Boeser. Traded Miller and kept Horvat. Targeted a different young D than Hronek. Whatever. You'll get no argument from me that you can question the execution of the process.

But if you think that taking a step back (small or large) and missing the playoffs intentionally was even remotely on the table, YOU. ARE. WRONG.

And again, this isn't just our stupid owner. This is any owner. Is Calgary tanking from a far more dubious position? Is Pittsburgh rushing into a rebuild despite an ancient core missing the playoffs last year? Did Florida take a 'step back' in 2020 when they were in basically the identical position to what we're in now?

There are tens or hundreds of millions of dollars riding on this. Every person in the organization has their careers riding on this. Even if statistically if you ran it through a computer simulation that you're slightly more likely to win a Cup with a 'step back' it just isn't how it works in real life. And if you don't understand this, I don't know what to say.

I never said that Aquilini being okay with missing the playoffs was ever a possibility.

I'm saying that it's okay and reasonable for fans to hope and demand for a more drastic shake-up.

Many teams and ownership groups around the league have greenlit rebuilds, even recently. It is well within the realm of possibility if it's something that the Aquilini's finally decide is necessary.

 

[MS]

you're still arguing against a strawman

there's a huge difference between intentionally tanking and accepting you are not in a competitive window and focusing on accumulating assets rather than spending them to lose less badly

i won't deny there are people who think pettersson, hughes, miller, horvat, kuzmenko and demko should have all been traded for draft picks but calling posters who were against the dickinson dump, the miller contract, the boeser contract, the hronek trade, the short sighted kuzmenko contract and buying out oel because they think they were poor moves that bring marginal present value for future costs is "video games" is exactly a disagreement in execution. despite that you continue to rail against those posters

Again, execution vs. process.

Should they have traded Miller and signed Horvat? Maybe, but that would have been for cap space and NHL assets and wouldn't have changed that the push for 2022-23 would have been to keep moving forward and make the playoffs. Should they have dumped Boeser? Yes, but for cap space to address the issues on D.

There is no world in which you take a 'step back' from the position we were in.

There is no world where any owner would have ok'ed a plan to miss the playoffs intentionally and focus on draft picks.

I never said that Aquilini being okay with missing the playoffs was ever a possibility.

I'm saying that it's okay and reasonable for fans to hope and demand for a more drastic shake-up.

Many teams and ownership groups around the league have greenlit rebuilds, even recently. It is well within the realm of possibility if it's something that the Aquilini's finally decide is necessary.

No ownership group has ever greenlit a rebuild from anything even close to the position we were at.

Rebuilds only happen as a last resort when a core has aged out and you have zero prime-age talent and zero hope of competing. Rebuilds never, ever happen from a 92-point team with basically the entire core in their early-mid 20s.

Montreal 2022, yeah. Obviously you rebuild that. Just like we should have done a full proper rebuild in 2016. But our situation is not that, or even close.

 

[Diogenes92]

No ownership group has ever greenlit a rebuild from anything even close to the position we were at.

Rebuilds only happen as a last resort when a core has aged out and you have zero prime-age talent and zero hope of competing. Rebuilds never, ever happen from a 92-point team with basically the entire core in their early-mid 20s.

Montreal 2022, yeah. Obviously you rebuild that. Just like we should have done a full proper rebuild in 2016. But our situation is not that, or even close

This core really hasn't proven anything and they've had years to do so.

I don't have faith in them to do much, but maybe they'll prove me wrong this year.

 

[credulous]

Montreal 2022, yeah. Obviously you rebuild that. Just like we should have done a full proper rebuild in 2016. But our situation is not that, or even close.

why is montreal so obviously a rebuild and vancouver not?

montreal went to the finals in 2021 and entered the 2022 season with more or less the same roster (the only real change was swapping kotkaniemi for dvorak and losing weber). they struggled the next season and traded lehkonen, chiarot, toffoli, kulak, petry and romanov almost all for "futures". this while having caufield and suzuki on the roster

partially as a result of those moves montreal is going into this season having added slafkovsky, reinbacher, newhook and dach none of whom would be on the roster if they hadn't "bottomed out" in 2022

why was it right for vancouver to retool and right for montreal to rebuild?

 

[MS]

why is montreal so obviously a rebuild and vancouver not?

montreal went to the finals in 2021 and entered the 2022 season with more or less the same roster (the only real change was swapping kotkaniemi for dvorak and losing weber). they struggled the next season and traded lehkonen, chiarot, toffoli, kulak, petry and romanov almost all for "futures". this while having caufield and suzuki on the roster

partially as a result of those moves montreal is going into this season having added slafkovsky, reinbacher, newhook and dach none of whom would be on the roster if they hadn't "bottomed out" in 2022

why was it right for vancouver to retool and right for montreal to rebuild?

Montreal had literally zero prime-age talent. They had a 23 y/o Nick Suzuki as the only thing better than an average player aged 20-30.

Vancouver had Pettersson, Horvat, Miller, Hughes, Demko as 5 very good to elite players in their prime. That is a huge line of talent at C/D/G in your most important positions. And then added Kuzmenko.

Like, if you're putting together a list of the top-5 prime age talents in an organization, Vancouver was easily top-10 and probably top-5 and Montreal was 32nd.

If you can't see the difference ... I can't even.

The 2022 Habs were absolutely finished once the Price/Weber/Pacioretty core had aged out or been traded. They were basically the 2016 Canucks once the 2011 core was done and they had nothing to build off of from there.

 

[credulous]

what? they had suzuki, caufield, romanov, kuhle and harris either in the lineup or imminently so

they had dvorak (25), anderson (27), lehkonen (26), gallagher (29), drouin (26) and toffoli (29)

the only real difference between montreal coming out of 2021 and vancouver coming out of 2022 was that montreal had been to the finals and had some decent prospects about to graduate

 

[sting101]

Yep Price their MVP was done. Weber HOF D and captain done. Gallagher like Kesler broken and on his way down in a hurry. Danault UFA gone. Staal Perry done.

 

[sting101]

what? they had suzuki, caufield, romanov, kuhle and harris either in the lineup or imminently so

they had dvorak (25), anderson (27), lehkonen (26), gallagher (29), drouin (26) and toffoli (29)

the only real difference between montreal coming out of 2021 and vancouver coming out of 2022 was that montreal had been to the finals and had some decent prospects about to graduate

yes lets just throw a bunch of names and forget the 2 HOFamers at 2 of the most important positions that were done and what was left from Gally Perry Danault Staal Byron and Edmundson? Not to mention they had the lowest points of any playoff team and Caufield needed some seasoning in the minors the next year? Drouin lol

 

[MS]

what? they had suzuki, caufield, romanov, kuhle and harris either in the lineup or imminently so

they had dvorak (25), anderson (27), lehkonen (26), gallagher (29), drouin (26) and toffoli (29)

the only real difference between montreal coming out of 2021 and vancouver coming out of 2022 was that montreal had been to the finals and had some decent prospects about to graduate

Holy shit.

Are you actually comparing 30-point forwards to Pettersson/Hughes/Miller?

Like, I can't even. This is garbage and you're smarter than this.

 

[credulous]

Holy shit.

Are you actually comparing 30-point forwards to Pettersson/Hughes/Miller?

Like, I can't even. This is garbage and you're smarter than this.

no i'm comparing suzuki to pettersson and caufield to hughes and pointing out montreal still had a ton of good/decent players on their roster. like i just don't understand why vancouver -- a team that has been absolutely awful for like 9 years -- can't possibly entertain moving out players for picks and younger players when montreal -- a team that went to the finals -- is an obvious teardown candidate

 

[MS]

no i'm comparing suzuki to pettersson and caufield to hughes and pointing out montreal still had a ton of good/decent players on their roster. like i just don't understand why vancouver -- a team that has been absolutely awful for like 9 years -- can't possibly entertain moving out players for picks and younger players when montreal -- a team that went to the finals -- is an obvious teardown candidate

Those are really f***ing bad comparisons.

Again, I can't even.

Suzuki was basically a young 2C. Caufield was a 40-point winger. You're comparing this to elite 1C/1D players. Caufield in particular was also 20 so a totally different age in terms of fitting into a rebuild/retool.

Again, you're comparing a top-10/probably top-5 prime age core to literally the worst in the NHL.

 

[credulous]

Again, you're comparing a top-10/probably top-5 prime age core to literally the worst in the NHL.

show your math. the canucks weren't even close to a top-10 prime age core in july 2022 and aren't now

 

[andora]

No, it's 100% true. And it's mindboggling that people don't understand this. It's like I'm talking to 14 year olds who started following sports a month ago and have never held a job or been around people in any meaningful sense.

They could have done a bunch of different things in the execution. Released Boeser. Traded Miller and kept Horvat. Targeted a different young D than Hronek. Whatever. You'll get no argument from me that you can question the execution of the process.

But if you think that taking a step back (small or large) and missing the playoffs intentionally was even remotely on the table, YOU. ARE. WRONG.

And again, this isn't just our stupid owner. This is any owner. Is Calgary tanking from a far more dubious position? Is Pittsburgh rushing into a rebuild despite an ancient core missing the playoffs last year? Did Florida take a 'step back' in 2020 when they were in basically the identical position to what we're in now?

There are tens or hundreds of millions of dollars riding on this. Every person in the organization has their careers riding on this. Even if statistically if you ran it through a computer simulation that you're slightly more likely to win a Cup with a 'step back' it just isn't how it works in real life. And if you don't understand this, I don't know what to say.

I think that is where it muddies everytime. Direction versus process versus execution

 

[MS]

show your math. the canucks weren't even close to a top-10 prime age core in july 2022 and aren't now

Pettersson is a top-5 C in the NHL right now. Hughes is very close to a top-5 D. Miller is a PPG C as your 2C. Demko is generally considered a top-10 goalie. Kuzmenko scored 39 goals as a rookie.

That is *easily* a top-10 prime age group in the NHL if you do 23-30 or 22-28 or whatever.

If you do U-25 you're looking long and hard before you find another C/D as good as Hughes/Pettersson. It's probably top-3 in the league if you're looking for a young C/D combination.

To compare this to the Montreal 2022 dumpster fire is just beyond belief. Like, holy f***. That team had nothing, and you're mentioning 30-point wingers to try and show they're good.

 

[MS]

I think that is where it muddies everytime. Direction versus process versus execution

For sure, that's part of it.

Maybe they should have traded Miller and they should definitely have walked on Boeser. But they were never doing that to go way under the cap and horde draft picks. They would have re-invested that cap elsewhere and moved forward to compete differently. Miller/Hronek/Boeser vs. Chytil/Schneider/Horvat/UFA signings.

But also there's a big chunk of the fanbase here who are just in love with magic beans.

 

[credulous]

that's a pretty narrow definition of core

are vancouver better by your definition of core than any of toronto, colorado, new jersey, carolina, edmonton, vegas, dallas, minnesota, winnipeg, ottawa, the rangers, buffalo and florida? i'll spot you arizona, columbus, los angeles and st louis even though i'd probably swap organizations with any of them, personally.

 

[arttk]

there's a huge difference between intentionally tanking and accepting you are not in a competitive window and focusing on accumulating assets rather than spending them to lose less badly

this is the same f***ing shit. focusing on accumulating assets = getting rid of players to get assets and getting rid of players to get assets means you are intentionally making the team bad because you don't get that much if any assets at all by trading bad players.

 

[MS]

that's a pretty narrow definition of core

are vancouver better by your definition of core than any of toronto, colorado, new jersey, carolina, edmonton, vegas, dallas, minnesota, winnipeg, ottawa, the rangers, buffalo and florida? i'll spot you arizona, columbus, los angeles and st louis even though i'd probably swap organizations with any of them, personally.

Absolutely they're than a bunch of those teams. Winnipeg? Ottawa? Minnesota? 2022 Devils/Sabres before their breakout last year? Absolutely.

Vegas is a bunch of 30+ guys which is a bit of a different thing, also.