Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[credulous]

Absolutely they're than a bunch of those teams. Winnipeg? Ottawa? Minnesota? 2022 Devils/Sabres before their breakout last year? Absolutely.

Vegas is a bunch of 30+ guys which is a bit of a different thing, also.

eichel, theodore, whitecloud, barbashev, roy, chandler, hague don't count?

i'm not gonna do the rest but really ottawa aren't ahead of vancouver?

 

[MS]

eichel, theodore, whitecloud, barbashev, roy, chandler, hague don't count?

i'm not gonna do the rest but really ottawa aren't ahead of vancouver?

Vancouver has a better U-30 C, better U-30 D, and better U-30 G than anything Vegas has.

And I'll take Hronek over Whitecloud as the 2nd D option, and Kuzmenko probably = Barbashev or Stephenson.

They have better depth and a couple great veterans (although who knows if Stone will play again) and a great culture that breeds success but in terms of the strength of their prime-age core players? Nope.

Vancouver also has a better 1C, better 1D, and better 1G than Ottawa. Hronek=Chychrun. Tkachuk>Kuzmenko as the best winger but overall, yeah. We are better.

 

[credulous]

even if you give pettersson, hughes, miller, kuzmenko and hronek the edge over eichel, theodore, stephenson, barbashev and whitecloud (and i wouldn't, personally, but i can cede the argument for the sake of discussion) then you're down to like mikheyev, suter and soucy vs karlsson, roy and hague and hill and thompson vs demko. i don't think vancouver is as clear a winner as you think

 

[MS]

even if you give pettersson, hughes, miller, kuzmenko and hronek the edge over eichel, theodore, stephenson, barbashev and whitecloud (and i wouldn't, personally, but i can cede the argument for the sake of discussion) then you're down to like mikheyev, suter and soucy vs karlsson, roy and hague and hill and thompson vs demko. i don't think vancouver is as clear a winner as you think

Obviously.

We aren't discussing the whole roster. Obviously they have depth and we don't. And they have a culture and we don't.

But the goalposts are getting moved. We have a very good young core. That core played 17 playoff games in 2020 and played at a 92-point pace in 2022. No GM in history is going to recommend a 'step back' from that position and no ownership in history would ever sign off on it.

 

[credulous]

Obviously.

We aren't discussing the whole roster. Obviously they have depth and we don't. And they have a culture and we don't.

But the goalposts are getting moved. We have a very good young core. That core played 17 playoff games in 2020 and played at a 92-point pace in 2022. No GM in history is going to recommend a 'step back' from that position and no ownership in history would ever sign off on it.

you're the one that called it a top 10 young core. i just don't agree vancouver's core is anything special. at least half the teams in the league can boast better on an apples for apples comparison

the only way you can justify at top 10 ranking is by narrowly defining it as exactly "pettersson, hughes and demko and their counterparts on other teams" which i think is so reductive as to be pointless when discussing this team's projection going forward

Vancouver also has a better 1C, better 1D, and better 1G than Ottawa. Hronek=Chychrun. Tkachuk>Kuzmenko as the best winger but overall, yeah. We are better.

you can't just ignore they also have norris, sanderson, batherson and zub all of whom are way better than their counterparts in vancouver

(edited to remove chabot, i misread hronek as hughes initially)

 

[MS]

you're the one that called it a top 10 young core. i just don't agree vancouver's core is anything special. at least half the teams in the league can boast better on an apples for apples comparison

the only way you can justify at top 10 ranking is by narrowly defining it as exactly "pettersson, hughes and demko and their counterparts on other teams" which i think is so reductive as to be pointless when discussing this team's projection going forward



you can't just ignore they also have norris, sanderson, batherson and zub all of whom are way better than their counterparts in vancouver

(edited to remove chabot, i misread hronek as hughes initially)

Vancouver's top C/D/G are so much better than Ottawa's that arguing whether Artem Zub>Carson Soucy is kind of pointless.

And no, half the league can't boast a better top 5 players.

And again, it's attempting to move goalposts. Even if Vancouver had the 11th best U-30 core in the NHL ... teams do not take a 'step back' from that position and horde draft picks and do Bedard mini-tanks.

 

[arttk]

Obviously.

We aren't discussing the whole roster. Obviously they have depth and we don't. And they have a culture and we don't.

But the goalposts are getting moved. We have a very good young core. That core played 17 playoff games in 2020 and played at a 92-point pace in 2022. No GM in history is going to recommend a 'step back' from that position and no ownership in history would ever sign off on it.

I don’t understand why people keeps insisting that the core failed when it’s obvious it’s the supporting cast that failed hard.

Like the core can only do so much when the rest of the support cast bleeds goals against whenever they step on the ice.
It’s like people can watch Loui and Beagle and Gubranson, Myers, OEL f*** shit up and then point the finger at Hughes, Petey and Miller and say why can’t they make up for it. It should be f***ing obvious why’s

 

[MS]

I don’t understand why people keeps insisting that the core failed when it’s obvious it’s the supporting cast that failed hard.

Like the core can only do so much when the rest of the support cast bleeds goals against whenever they step on the ice.
It’s like people can watch Loui and Beagle and Gubranson, Myers, OEL f*** shit up and then point the finger at Hughes, Petey and Miller and say why can’t they make up for it. It should be f***ing obvious why’s

No kidding.

Again, it's like people have watched this team and think we're the 2022 Canadiens instead of the 2020 Panthers.

The core has been great.

But the problems with this team have been :

1) bad coaching
2) bad culture
3) 2022-23 goaltending situation
4) lack of quality cheap PK personnel

All of those things should theoretically be easily addressable without a multi-year rebuild. Getting elite core players is the hardest thing to do in sports, and we have that.

 

[arttk]

No kidding.

Again, it's like people have watched this team and think we're the 2022 Canadiens instead of the 2020 Panthers.

The core has been great.

But the problems with this team have been :

1) bad coaching
2) bad culture
3) 2022-23 goaltending situation
4) lack of quality cheap PK personnel

All of those things should theoretically be easily addressable without a multi-year rebuild. Getting elite core players is the hardest thing to do in sports, and we have that.

I think Woodley mentioned this yesterday in the radio hit. He talked about how the PK was bad because players weren’t in their lanes and then when they got them into the lanes, the players weren’t willing to eat the puck.

These are all fixable issues with the right supporting piece.

 

[VanillaCoke]

vancouvers core is definitely overrated by some, especially locally.

 

[andora]

For sure, that's part of it.

Maybe they should have traded Miller and they should definitely have walked on Boeser. But they were never doing that to go way under the cap and horde draft picks. They would have re-invested that cap elsewhere and moved forward to compete differently. Miller/Hronek/Boeser vs. Chytil/Schneider/Horvat/UFA signings.

But also there's a big chunk of the fanbase here who are just in love with magic beans.

The only thing i have been upset about is the choice with boeser .. even though i understand

The thimg i never remember reading was execution on the mini 2 year whatever the hell.. aside from trading all our ufas to be which we had 2 i think.. traded 1..

I believe the execution on a quick re tool as was discussed so much is on the same level of thread the needle of difficulty than the path we went on and pushing

In theory the retool way needs a hell of a lot more pure luck than our current path, which when you rely on luck...ehhhh

 

[RandV]

no i'm comparing suzuki to pettersson and caufield to hughes and pointing out montreal still had a ton of good/decent players on their roster. like i just don't understand why vancouver -- a team that has been absolutely awful for like 9 years -- can't possibly entertain moving out players for picks and younger players when montreal -- a team that went to the finals -- is an obvious teardown candidate

Because Montreal made the finals, the point we're saying they're still good, as a Cinderella team on the strength of guys like Price and Weber who were done after that season. And Suzuki/Caufield are good young players but they're not Pettersson/Hughes good. They're also signed to 8 year deals and not close to being a UFA.

 

[RobsonStreet]

I almost never see people saying “we should have traded Pettersson and Hughes at a discount so we can fully commit to a rebuild”, when that’s basically the alternative to what’s happening here. It’s almost always the wilful ignorance of “the team can deliberately rebuild and the players we care about will be fine with this”.

Star players waiting through an intentional tank-style rebuild on a team that has no history of winning is basically not a thing.

Put yourself in the shoes of a player. If the plan is “stay with the team during your prime while the team loses and tries to accumulate futures”, I don’t know how you don’t counter with, “no thanks, trade me to a team that is already good and wants to win now”.

 

[Diogenes92]

vancouvers core is definitely overrated by some, especially locally.

They should be a top 5 team in the NHL considering what I'm reading.

 

[MS]

They should be a top 5 team in the NHL considering what I'm reading.

Then your reading comprehension isn't very good?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

No kidding.

Again, it's like people have watched this team and think we're the 2022 Canadiens instead of the 2020 Panthers.

The core has been great.

But the problems with this team have been :

1) bad coaching
2) bad culture
3) 2022-23 goaltending situation
4) lack of quality cheap PK personnel

All of those things should theoretically be easily addressable without a multi-year rebuild. Getting elite core players is the hardest thing to do in sports, and we have that.

it's so incredibly sad

we have the superstar 100 pt center, the stud bona fide number one control the game d, and the franchise goalie capable of stealing a playoff series all by himself. we should be a top five team in the league by now. what a complete and total waste of the last three years.

the pat quinn core had the superstar scorer but not at center, no franchise d, and sometimes the goalie

the burke core had two superstar scorers but neither at center, no franchise d, and... ugh cloutier

the gillis core had the center, the goalie, but no franchise d

all three pillars were in place, this is once in a lifetime (keeping in mind someone born in 1970 is 53 now), but it's been like

 

[MS]

it's so incredibly sad

we have the superstar 100 pt center, the stud bona fide number one control the game d, and the franchise goalie capable of stealing a playoff series all by himself. we should be a top five team in the league by now. what a complete and total waste of the last three years.

the pat quinn core had the superstar scorer but not at center, no franchise d, and sometimes the goalie

the burke core had two superstar scorers but neither at center, no franchise d, and... ugh cloutier

the gillis core had the center, the goalie, but no franchise d

all three pillars were in place, this is once in a lifetime (keeping in mind someone born in 1970 is 53 now), but it's been like

Oh, absolutely.

If not for Benning's cap bungling we should have been in a position to be adding an Alex Pietrangelo to the 2020 team in addition to retaining Tanev/Toffoli etc.

Instead we took a massive step back.

And then the team seemed to almost realize that Benning should be fired in the summer of 2021 ... only to double down (thanks, Geoff Courtnall) and let him make the OEL trade.

And then we wasted the 2021-22 season getting rid of Benning/Green and the 22-23 season getting rid of Boudreau.

3 seasons now totally wasted due to Jim Benning's incompetence and ownership's unwillingness to get rid of him.

If we clean house in 2021 and hire new management/coaches at that point, everything is just so much different.

 

[Diogenes92]

Then your reading comprehension isn't very good?

Sure, let's go with that.

 

[MS]

Sure, let's go with that.

When has anybody said that this is a 'top-5 team'?

This team has a very good core, coupled with a whole bunch of problems that have dragged back the results relative to the potential of that core engine group.

Most of those problems should be fixable. And again, the closest recent comparable to this team is the circa 2019-2020 Panthers, who were able to completely turn things around while retaining the same group of young core players.

And again, the main point here is that 92-point teams with the quality of our early/mid 20s core simply do not take steps back. And somehow people just can't accept the reality of this.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I almost never see people saying “we should have traded Pettersson and Hughes at a discount so we can fully commit to a rebuild”, when that’s basically the alternative to what’s happening here. It’s almost always the wilful ignorance of “the team can deliberately rebuild and the players we care about will be fine with this”.

Star players waiting through an intentional tank-style rebuild on a team that has no history of winning is basically not a thing.

Put yourself in the shoes of a player. If the plan is “stay with the team during your prime while the team loses and tries to accumulate futures”, I don’t know how you don’t counter with, “no thanks, trade me to a team that is already good and wants to win now”.

MS out here revealing his burner account.

Jk @MS

 

[Diogenes92]

When has anybody said that this is a 'top-5 team'?

This team has a very good core, coupled with a whole bunch of problems that have dragged back the results relative to the potential of that core engine group.

Most of those problems should be fixable. And again, the closest recent comparable to this team is the circa 2019-2020 Panthers, who were able to completely turn things around while retaining the same group of young core players.

And again, the main point here is that 92-point teams with the quality of our early/mid 20s core simply do not take steps back. And somehow people just can't accept the reality of this.

The way you're talking up the core it makes it seem like they should've done a ton of damage by now. Two top centres, top D, top G. They choked almost every season away at different parts the last few years.

The 92 point season was on the back of the saviour Boudreau, who was subsequently ran out of town and blamed for everything noy even a season later.

This team is weak mentally. Their culture is one of losing. It needed a shake-up badly, but its too late for that now.

The Miller contract will be an albatross in the near future and the Petey rumours and Brisson's words should worry anybody who wants him to stick around. Hughes as captain is just meh. Demko's durability is a huge question mark.

 

[arttk]

They should be a top 5 team in the NHL considering what I'm reading.

You guys seem to have a difficulty understanding a team has more than 5 players

The way you're talking up the core it makes it seem like they should've done a ton of damage by now. Two top centres, top D, top G. They choked almost every season away at different parts the last few years.

The 92 point season was on the back of the saviour Boudreau, who was subsequently ran out of town and blamed for everything noy even a season later.

This team is weak mentally. Their culture is one of losing. It needed a shake-up badly, but its too late for that now.

The Miller contract will be an albatross in the near future and the Petey rumours and Brisson's words should worry anybody who wants him to stick around. Hughes as captain is just meh. Demko's durability is a huge question mark.

They changed like 70% of the roster and the reason they haven’t changed more is because Myers, Garland, Pearson and Poolman have really f***ing shitty contracts and it’s likely all of them will be gone by like next season and we will have seen like a 80+% turnover.

 

[MS]

The way you're talking up the core it makes it seem like they should've done a ton of damage by now. Two top centres, top D, top G. They choked almost every season away at different parts the last few years.

The 92 point season was on the back of the saviour Boudreau, who was subsequently ran out of town and blamed for everything noy even a season later.

This team is weak mentally. Their culture is one of losing. It needed a shake-up badly, but its too late for that now.

The Miller contract will be an albatross in the near future and the Petey rumours and Brisson's words should worry anybody who wants him to stick around. Hughes as captain is just meh. Demko's durability is a huge question mark.

The reason this team has been bad is not the core players or being 'weak mentally'.

It's bad culture, bad PK personnel, bad goaltending last year, bad coaching, lack of depth on D.

The 92-point season was partly unsustainably good Boudreau results and partly unsustainably bad Green/Benning results and was overall pretty indicative of where the team was at.

They've turned over nearly 3/4 of the roster including the captain. Not sure what more you want?

 

[Tob]

Doesn't it feel like every year is THE year where we will get all the questions answered and arguments settled? It felt that way last year and again this year. I'm getting strong gambling compulsion PTSD but I'm really hoping there's a clearer answer this year for better or worse instead of another late rally, injury excuses, 1-2 player scape goat etc.

 

[Diogenes92]

Doesn't it feel like every year is THE year where we will get all the questions answered and arguments settled? It felt that way last year and again this year. I'm getting strong gambling compulsion PTSD but I'm really hoping there's a clearer answer this year for better or worse instead of another late rally, injury excuses, 1-2 player scape goat etc.

I feel like its been pretty clear for a while that this core isn't getting it done.

Once the Sedins left it shouldve been full on rebuild time (not Jim Benning accidental rebuild time). Aquilini had to be his usual dumb self and push for playoff revenue against all odds.

The late season pushes when they're all but eliminated has to be one of the most frustrating things they've done the last few years. If there's one thing these teams have been good for, its been meaningless late season draft pick sabotage.