Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[God]

I think the Canucks would've easily offered Rathbone and this year's second for Marino. But for a team like Pittsburgh, Smith was the more reliable player to acquire for a competitive team, so that's probably why they picked that offer.

 

[tradervik]

Canucks: Taking trade swing for John Marino wasn't worth plausible price

The Canucks need a younger, talented partner for Hughes, but parting with top prospect Rathbone would have been risky.

theprovince.com

There's probably more if you dig around old SN650 podcasts, as I recall it was discussed pretty extensively at the time.

Thanks for the link but it’s pretty weak sauce, especially coming from Kuzma.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I think the Canucks would've easily offered Rathbone and this year's second for Marino. But for a team like Pittsburgh, Smith was the more reliable player to acquire for a competitive team, so that's probably why they picked that offer.

Agreed..Rathbone was getting absolutely torched last season,and was promptly sent to the AHL..a tough year in his development.

 

[petterdaddy]

Agreed..Rathbone was getting absolutely torched last season,and was promptly sent to the AHL..a tough year in his development.

At this point almost every team has a version of a Rathbone. Smaller OFD who can’t hack it full time at the NHL level and in his mid 20s. Like the kid, but he’s Marc Andre Gragnani and that’s not very valuable. It would have certainly needed to start with a better asset and the good ones the Canucks have aren’t tradeable. It’s why Benning damage is so long lasting, he somehow pulled off emptying the cupboards while depreciating almost every asset value. Having an extra first let the Canucks trade for Hronek who has been a need for like.. idk I don’t remember a legit top pairing RHD on this team not named Bieksa or Tanev.

Even if Rathbone has some value, I don’t think he starts the conversation for Marino but maybe I’m just too hard on him.

 

[TruGr1t]

Agreed..Rathbone was getting absolutely torched last season,and was promptly sent to the AHL..a tough year in his development.

I mean, if you recall at this point last year (or just refer to the article) people were rather losing their minds for Rathbone. Obviously, it didn't turn out, but at the time the Canucks apparently valued him highly.

Maybe Rathbone + 2nd wouldn't have been the winning bid, but I'd be rather shocked if the Canucks didn't inquire given the Pens connection. Unless Rutherford straight-up doesn't like Marino as a player, which given what's happened since doesn't reflect particularly well on our pro scouting.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I mean, if you recall at this point last year (or just refer to the article) people were rather losing their minds for Rathbone. Obviously, it didn't turn out, but at the time the Canucks apparently valued him highly.

Maybe Rathbone + 2nd wouldn't have been the winning bid, but I'd be rather shocked if the Canucks didn't inquire given the Pens connection. Unless Rutherford straight-up doesn't like Marino as a player, which given what's happened since doesn't reflect particularly well on our pro scouting.

I can’t find much info if they were in on the trade or not ..Obviously PA/JR knew the lowdown on Marino..Maybe the Pens saw more upside with Smith (picked 17th OA) than with Rathbone (4th round pick).

 

[arttk]

I mean, if you recall at this point last year (or just refer to the article) people were rather losing their minds for Rathbone. Obviously, it didn't turn out, but at the time the Canucks apparently valued him highly.

Maybe Rathbone + 2nd wouldn't have been the winning bid, but I'd be rather shocked if the Canucks didn't inquire given the Pens connection. Unless Rutherford straight-up doesn't like Marino as a player, which given what's happened since doesn't reflect particularly well on our pro scouting.

People were losing their minds over Ratbone because our cupboards are completely empty.
Other teams tend not to have the same sentiment because they were not as horribly ran.

Ratbone has not proved he can defend effectively in the AHL. His value is way different compared to Smith who was a full time NHL player for 2 season.

JR already responded to that and said we were in those negotiations but other packages were preferred over ours.

 

[TruGr1t]

People were losing their minds over Ratbone because our cupboards are completely empty.
Other teams tend not to have the same sentiment because they were not as horribly ran.

Ratbone has not proved he can defend effectively in the AHL. His value is way different compared to Smith who was a full time NHL player for 2 season.

JR already responded to that and said we were in those negotiations but other packages were preferred over ours.

Fair enough, I haven't seen that quote from JR. The Rathbone love was off the charts last season, and certain fans were ready to stage some sort of protest that Boudreau wasn't giving him ice time, even though it was pretty obvious he had specific deficiencies based on camp.

But it wasn't just locally, Rathbone was viewed as a pretty legit prospect last summer.

 

[F A N]

I mean, if you recall at this point last year (or just refer to the article) people were rather losing their minds for Rathbone. Obviously, it didn't turn out, but at the time the Canucks apparently valued him highly.

Maybe Rathbone + 2nd wouldn't have been the winning bid, but I'd be rather shocked if the Canucks didn't inquire given the Pens connection. Unless Rutherford straight-up doesn't like Marino as a player, which given what's happened since doesn't reflect particularly well on our pro scouting.

Ya that's the thing. It's management's job to evaluate Rathbone. I don't blame them for valuing him highly though.

Like I said, outside of the Penguins specifically targeting Smith and really liking the player, the Canucks could have gotten a deal done if they really wanted to whether it involves throwing in another draft pick or something else. Regardless, Marino is a player management is familiar with so again if anyone was in a position to "value" Marino correctly it is our management group.

 

[arttk]

Fair enough, I haven't seen that quote from JR. The Rathbone love was off the charts last season, and certain fans were ready to stage some sort of protest that Boudreau wasn't giving him ice time, even though it was pretty obvious he had specific deficiencies based on camp.

But it wasn't just locally, Rathbone was viewed as a pretty legit prospect last summer.

We went through a period of insane amount of losing and due to GOAT level incompetence, we didn’t end up with a deep prospect pool.

Like I want Ratbone to be a NHLer as well and really really want him to be a top4 guy so at least I can look back and say well at least we got one more prospect from those years of absolute dog shit.

 

[petterdaddy]

We went through a period of insane amount of losing and due to GOAT level incompetence, we didn’t end up with a deep prospect pool.

Like I want Ratbone to be a NHLer as well and really really want him to be a top4 guy so at least I can look back and say well at least we got one more prospect from those years of absolute dog shit.

Tbh up until Abbotsford I wouldn’t trust this organization to develop a photo, let alone a real defender. Still not 100%.

 

[oceanchild]

Mr.Hall has a 16 team NTC and we know how much he enjoys playing in Canada.

Taking on McDonagh at full cap hit x 4 years at age 33/34 is the last thing this team should do. People complain about the risk of Miller's contract and you suggest an even bigger risk with McDonagh who has been declining? Leadership? Get that Benning shit out of here. I can't believe the failure of paying Beagle, OEL, Gubranson for leadership would teach you something.

McDonagh isn’t in the same sphere as the others you name and has had significant success and rings. I do believe young players need to be taught how to win and he is the type of player to bring into that role. Not some marginal player who has experience on crappy teams and has not shown they can be a key performer on a winner.

 

[Peen]

I mean, some things just never get out.

But given how we all have known about these potential Myers, Garland, Miller trades that haven't completed in recent memory (as well as how public the boeser thing was), I feel like we would have heard a "Vancouver tried to offer x,y,z" for Marino report.

I think that would have been a favourable optics one for the organization to leak to reporters as well. Meh. I just think they missed out there. I don't want to have the Rathbone Smith debate. It's a process thing for me. As long as they offered it, that's all I care about.

 

[arttk]

McDonagh isn’t in the same sphere as the others you name and has had significant success and rings. I do believe young players need to be taught how to win and he is the type of player to bring into that role. Not some marginal player who has experience on crappy teams and has not shown they can be a key performer on a winner.

You don’t pay 6.75M for mentorship. You pay that much money for performance. You want mentorship, look at Gonchar and Foote.

 

[RandV]

McDonagh isn’t in the same sphere as the others you name and has had significant success and rings. I do believe young players need to be taught how to win and he is the type of player to bring into that role. Not some marginal player who has experience on crappy teams and has not shown they can be a key performer on a winner.

You can't add a McDonagh when you already have OEL's contract on the books, not too mention Myers. I mean before the buyout if you could have swapped OEL for McDonagh straight up then sure that would have been great, but having both at the same time? You realize how much cap hit that is for guys in their 30's, one over the hill and one probably soon to be and both signed for another 4-5 years?

 

[RandV]

Ya that's the thing. It's management's job to evaluate Rathbone. I don't blame them for valuing him highly though.

Like I said, outside of the Penguins specifically targeting Smith and really liking the player, the Canucks could have gotten a deal done if they really wanted to whether it involves throwing in another draft pick or something else. Regardless, Marino is a player management is familiar with so again if anyone was in a position to "value" Marino correctly it is our management group.

Like I pointed out earlier this one is kind of iffy as if New Jersey was really in on Marino they got him relatively cheap from their perspective and we can't know how they may have countered if the Canucks came up with a better offer.

Rathbone was a 'big deal' for us Canuck fans because our prospect pool was so damn thing and he was about the only good thing we had on the blue line, but Devils had Nemec, Hughes, Muhkamadullin, and possibly a couple other guys I don't know of before you get to Ty Smith's level, and Rathbone would be below him. Tossing Smith and a 3rd to NJ for them was relatively cheap. You can see with the later Meier and Toffoli trade they had a lot of pieces to play with.

 

[F A N]

Like I pointed out earlier this one is kind of iffy as if New Jersey was really in on Marino they got him relatively cheap from their perspective and we can't know how they may have countered if the Canucks came up with a better offer.

Rathbone was a 'big deal' for us Canuck fans because our prospect pool was so damn thing and he was about the only good thing we had on the blue line, but Devils had Nemec, Hughes, Muhkamadullin, and possibly a couple other guys I don't know of before you get to Ty Smith's level, and Rathbone would be below him. Tossing Smith and a 3rd to NJ for them was relatively cheap. You can see with the later Meier and Toffoli trade they had a lot of pieces to play with.

True. But the Canucks are looking to compete and if they think Marino is a top 4 Dman on a good salary they shouldn't worry about Rathbone unless they value Rathbone more highly than Marino. Rathbone is only 2 years younger.

I say unless they value Rathbone more highly because all else being equal, Marino is the more established player. There's no reason not to get it done if management liked Marino a lot more.

 

[oceanchild]

You can't add a McDonagh when you already have OEL's contract on the books, not too mention Myers. I mean before the buyout if you could have swapped OEL for McDonagh straight up then sure that would have been great, but having both at the same time? You realize how much cap hit that is for guys in their 30's, one over the hill and one probably soon to be and both signed for another 4-5 years?

I was not recommending we have both, and I was and am trying to say one asset you have to pay through the nose (OEL) and one asset was free McDough. The free asset was a way better asset than the expensive one and the difference was cap space. The Canucks need cap space and not this failed attempt of a turn around while paying players in their prime without a talent pool of cheap contracts to support. Can anyone give me an example of a team that parallels the Canucks that has a modicum of success? Making the playoffs as an 8 seed is not success.

 

[HairyKneel]

I was not recommending we have both, and I was and am trying to say one asset you have to pay through the nose (OEL) and one asset was free McDough. The free asset was a way better asset than the expensive one and the difference was cap space. The Canucks need cap space and not this failed attempt of a turn around while paying players in their prime without a talent pool of cheap contracts to support. Can anyone give me an example of a team that parallels the Canucks that has a modicum of success? Making the playoffs as an 8 seed is not success.

The original OEL trade was a massive blunder. We all get it. We can’t walk it back.

Who knows how they will do in the upcoming season? They may get the 8th seed. They might get the 5th seed. They could miss the playoffs. I’m giving this administration two more full seasons at the helm before I write them off considering the garbage fire they were left with on every level- poor current team, cap hell, thin pipeline, low morale, no trade capital, lacking draft picks etc.

Summer time isn’t the time to have diaper fires. Get outside and enjoy the day.

 

[oceanchild]

The original OEL trade was a massive blunder. We all get it. We can’t walk it back.

Who knows how they will do in the upcoming season? They may get the 8th seed. They might get the 5th seed. They could miss the playoffs. I’m giving this administration two more full seasons at the helm before I write them off considering the garbage fire they were left with on every level- poor current team, cap hell, thin pipeline, low morale, no trade capital, lacking draft picks etc.

Summer time isn’t the time to have diaper fires. Get outside and enjoy the day.

One can enjoy the day and still find time to post in the evening or on a day of rain. The point still stands and I disagree with a defeatist position that taking a step back isn’t a way forward and that path we have been on is the only one available.

 

[Tob]

One thing I disagree with is the value of Smith at the time of the Marino trade. smith struggled immensely that season. Pit just made a move and they needed to clear space. Smith was not a good asset. He was an okay asset. Rebound candidate, project in my mind.

The cost of acquisition was low for NJ. Devils fans were happy to see him off the roster because he was a part of that disaster on ice 2 years ago.

So I don't think it's a "Rathbone" conundrum when it comes to the Marino trade. If there was cap space and a will, it could have been done. I don't recall if the Canucks had sufficient cap space to be in that trade talk at the time (probably not).

Maybe the now fired PIT mgmt had big beliefs about Smith but I think the devils were not holding onto him like he was a prize.

I had very strong recollection of reading the devs board that Smith was so out of his depth at the NHL level defensively, caved in every night.

 

[racerjoe]

One thing I disagree with is the value of Smith at the time of the Marino trade. smith struggled immensely that season. Pit just made a move and they needed to clear space. Smith was not a good asset. He was an okay asset. Rebound candidate, project in my mind.

The cost of acquisition was low for NJ. Devils fans were happy to see him off the roster because he was a part of that disaster on ice 2 years ago.

So I don't think it's a "Rathbone" conundrum when it comes to the Marino trade. If there was cap space and a will, it could have been done. I don't recall if the Canucks had sufficient cap space to be in that trade talk at the time (probably not).

Maybe the now fired PIT mgmt had big beliefs about Smith but I think the devils were not holding onto him like he was a prize.

I had very strong recollection of reading the devs board that Smith was so out of his depth at the NHL level defensively, caved in every night.

Ty Smith - 17th pick in 2018 draft, played NHL games for 2 seasons currently 23
Nils Lundkvist 28th pick 2018 draft pick spot duty in the NHL for 1 season currently 22

1 of these guys was traded straight up for the first... the other had probably more value.

At the time I really didn't think Nils would have that much value, but when you look at what young NHL dmen are going for it makes sense.

Just to compare for value sake:
Jack Rathbone 95th in 2017, Played the least amount of NHL games, even adding in 2 extra seasons.

 

[F A N]

Anyone else concerned about the draft process after watching the behind the scenes video? I mean maybe it was just a soundbite but Granato (who oversees amateur scouting) telling Harvey to "find out" in the [2nd day] of the draft is shocking and concerning to me. The time to "find out" was before the draft when coming up with the draft list not in the middle of the 2nd [day]. The tone was different from Allvin confirming with is scouts: "You guys are sure right? You guys like him?"

If Granato doesn't have confidence in Harvey and or other scouts they should be fired. We shouldn't be trying to "find out" whether the guy the team wants to draft in the 2nd round is in fact the BPA.

Edit: I meant to say in the middle of the 2nd day of the draft instead of 2nd day.

 

[Coffee]

Anyone else concerned about the draft process after watching the behind the scenes video? I mean maybe it was just a soundbite but Granato (who oversees amateur scouting) telling Harvey to "find out" in the 2nd round of the draft is shocking and concerning to me. The time to "find out" was before the draft when coming up with the draft list not in the middle of the 2nd round. The tone was different from Allvin confirming with is scouts: "You guys are sure right? You guys like him?"

If Granato doesn't have confidence in Harvey and or other scouts they should be fired. We shouldn't be trying to "find out" whether the guy the team wants to draft in the 2nd round is in fact the BPA.

That’s just how the Canucks handle their business

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Anyone else concerned about the draft process after watching the behind the scenes video? I mean maybe it was just a soundbite but Granato (who oversees amateur scouting) telling Harvey to "find out" in the 2nd round of the draft is shocking and concerning to me. The time to "find out" was before the draft when coming up with the draft list not in the middle of the 2nd round. The tone was different from Allvin confirming with is scouts: "You guys are sure right? You guys like him?"

If Granato doesn't have confidence in Harvey and or other scouts they should be fired. We shouldn't be trying to "find out" whether the guy the team wants to draft in the 2nd round is in fact the BPA.

I don't know why people try to read this deeply into what amounts to mild propaganda for the team.

I like these videos and find them somewhat informative. But if you're searching for discord between the lines you're hallucinating.