Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[arttk]

Right now with draft capital and cap space you could help teams in cap trouble by getting good players at a significant discount. You are under valuing the cap space and the draft capital as an option. We will also need young players on ELC if we want a cup. Playoffs would be nice, but winning a cup is the goal. We haven’t been making the playoffs with a clear number one Center, dman and goalie, has a team ever effectively transitioned from a lotto team to a cup winner without cleaning up cap space and building up a prospect pool?

Like I said many times, you guys just focus on the concept and never on the actual details. Who did we miss out on? Players on significant discount means shit if they don’t improve the team. Like adding Johansen or Hayes makes no freaking considering our weakness. You don’t go add guys just because they are cheap, you add them because they help your.

Our team is shit not because Petey, Hughes and Demko can’t get it done. It’s shit because we have overpaid 3rd and 4th liners losing the game for us.

 

[oceanchild]

Like I said many times, you guys just focus on the concept and never on the actual details. Who did we miss out on? Players on significant discount means shit if they don’t improve the team. Like adding Johansen or Hayes makes no freaking considering our weakness. You don’t go add guys just because they are cheap, you add them because they help your.

Our team is shit not because Petey, Hughes and Demko can’t get it done. It’s shit because we have overpaid 3rd and 4th liners losing the game for us.

A simple example is Taylor Hall getting traded to Chicago for nothing or Ryan McDonagh going to Nashville when we could use his leadership a lot more that what we got from OEL or Myers. Sure some of the deals don’t fit, others would have moved us forward. This team is a ways from being good enough to win, with a thin prospect pool and defence that still requires a number 2 and a 4 defensemen. I am hoping that out pick this year is ready in a couple years but that is optimistic.

 

[andora]

Yeah those deals arent exactly what we should be aspiring to

 

[bossram]

Ana, Chi, Arizona all have a ton of cap.

SJ makes a lot of sense especially if they retain on Karlsson. They would’ve paid so much cash they might want to swap with us 5M of real cash contract for Myers’s 1M in real cash contract to save some real cash.

What teams do you think are on Myers no-trade list?

A simple example is Taylor Hall getting traded to Chicago for nothing or Ryan McDonagh going to Nashville when we could use his leadership a lot more that what we got from OEL or Myers. Sure some of the deals don’t fit, others would have moved us forward. This team is a ways from being good enough to win, with a thin prospect pool and defence that still requires a number 2 and a 4 defensemen. I am hoping that out pick this year is ready in a couple years but that is optimistic.

Also I've had many discussions with artkk and provided concrete examples of players that were, in fact, available and moved. It doesn't matter if you give examples, he'll reject them too.

 

[arttk]

A simple example is Taylor Hall getting traded to Chicago for nothing or Ryan McDonagh going to Nashville when we could use his leadership a lot more that what we got from OEL or Myers. Sure some of the deals don’t fit, others would have moved us forward. This team is a ways from being good enough to win, with a thin prospect pool and defence that still requires a number 2 and a 4 defensemen. I am hoping that out pick this year is ready in a couple years but that is optimistic.

Mr.Hall has a 16 team NTC and we know how much he enjoys playing in Canada.

Taking on McDonagh at full cap hit x 4 years at age 33/34 is the last thing this team should do. People complain about the risk of Miller's contract and you suggest an even bigger risk with McDonagh who has been declining? Leadership? Get that Benning shit out of here. I can't believe the failure of paying Beagle, OEL, Gubranson for leadership would teach you something.

 

[arttk]

What teams do you think are on Myers no-trade list?


Also I've had many discussions with artkk and provided concrete examples of players that were, in fact, available and moved. It doesn't matter if you give examples, he'll reject them too.

No clue but I always stated that if we are really damn desperate to trade Myers we can just threaten to send him to waivers.

Sure if you provide realistic examples of players that will actually help then sure. Like the only one that is on my mind is Bjorkstrand but then we got a similar player in Mik for free in FA so why should we pay 2 picks? I also don't remember you bringing up any example for me to reject.

 

[iceburg]

I really hope Soucey works out. It feels a lot like the past when we hear things like "we think [insert veteran player X who has never been in a top 4 or top 9 role] can move up the line-up"

 

[bossram]

No clue but I always stated that if we are really damn desperate to trade Myers we can just threaten to send him to waivers.

Sure if you provide realistic examples of players that will actually help then sure. Like the only one that is on my mind is Bjorkstrand but then we got a similar player in Mik for free in FA so why should we pay 2 picks? I also don't remember you bringing up any example for me to reject.

I've discussed Marino with you ad nauseum, but you refuse to believe he was a viable option.

I really hope Soucey works out. It feels a lot like the past when we hear things like "we think [insert veteran player X who has never been in a top 4 or top 9 role] can move up the line-up"

I think it's a good bet he's an improvement on OEL or Myers in the top-four.

Of course, that's a pretty low bar, and doesn't even necessarily mean he has to perform like a 4D to clear it.

 

[iceburg]

I think it's a good bet he's an improvement on OEL or Myers in the top-four.

Of course, that's a pretty low bar, and doesn't even necessarily mean he has to perform like a 4D to clear it.

I don't doubt he will be better than OEL and Myers. And, given the situation re the cap, he is a good option. I think we just need to manage expectations a little. We've seen this movie before.

They still should be in search of at least one or two more top 4 D for when Myers' contract is off the books. Hopefully one of the players in the system will develop and Soucey can bridge the gap. It would be a homerun if he shows he is legitimately a top 4 guy in the meantime.

 

[Jyrki21]

I actually think Myers wouldn’t object to going to Chicago… NHL players are suckers for original six/“cool” markets and having Bedard there (and an opportunity to be a leader on the team) would be alluring.

I just dispute the idea that Myers suddenly gains positive value once his bonus is paid, because any team looking to upgrade won’t have the cap space. It still sounds like any candidates to take him would be “doing the Canucks a favor” and probably trying to extract an asset.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I actually think Myers wouldn’t object to going to Chicago… NHL players are suckers for original six/“cool” markets and having Bedard there (and an opportunity to be a leader on the team) would be alluring.

I just dispute the idea that Myers suddenly gains positive value once his bonus is paid, because any team looking to upgrade won’t have the cap space. It still sounds like any candidates to take him would be “doing the Canucks a favor” and probably trying to extract an asset.

Agreed. The only thing I can think of is that, post-bonus, you could make a cap-neutral, salary-shedding trade involving him . (Eg, Myers for Adam Henrique would save Anaheim about $5M in cash). I doubt Canucks ownership would even sign off on something like that.

 

[RandV]

Well Allvin was an "insider" and it's not like the Marino trade rumours didn't swirl for some time before he was traded. It wasn't a trade that came out of left field. IIRC we even discussed the possibility prior to Marino being traded.

In terms of how Marino would perform, I think that's absolutely something that we absolutely can expect our management to get it right given the closeup view three members of upper management have had had over the years.

In terms of assets it's hard to say. The Penguins might have targeted Ty Smith and if that's the case we don't really haven't something reasonably comparable to offer. But if the ask was Rathbone and a 2nd round pick (which was speculated) that's a different matter. I tend to believe that outside of the Penguins fixating on Ty Smith, I think if there is a will there is usually a way.

I don't recall if there were any rumours about Marino at the time - and remember the perspective I'm talking about is the prior seasons trade deadline as you would need to trade Miller for cheap to have the assets for Marino. But looking at what Pittsburgh actually did it looks more like Marino had to be moved to facilitate signing Jeff Petry in free agency. Seems like a situation similar to how Vegas sent us Schmidt so they could sign Pietrangelo, and not something you would know a few months before at the deadline.

Again all this talk about making use of free/cheap assets really seems to come down to cherry picking Marino specifically. Like in terms of 'cheap/free' assets new management has added Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, Blueger Bear, Soucy, Cole, and a good handful of depth prospects & players. It all just sounds like creating a static environment and using hindsight then threading a needle to come up with an outcome better than what management actually did but if you dig into the details doesn't really sound much better than what we have.

Like consider here I'm talking about a change in events where we trade Miller so now we can beat New Jersey's Smith and a 3rd offer for Marino with maybe Lundqvist and a 2nd. Yaay Marino acquired! But if they had competition is that really the best offer New Jersey could make? Since they'd been building for a number of years and didn't do a Benning they had a far deeper pool of assets to draw from than Allvin had, and there's absolutely nothing he could have done about that in the short time he'd been GM.

Now it's one thing if people were simply saying to trade everyone to build up a future asset pool, that would certainly be a different plan from what management has done, but there's just such a fixation on the idea of 'cheap' acquisitions that have been getting made.

 

[arttk]

I've discussed Marino with you ad nauseum, but you refuse to believe he was a viable option.

Because your complaint is not based on reality?
Here are the things that needs to be true for your scenario to work.
1) Smith is only worth a 2nd in Pitts eyes
2) Pitts was willing to trade Marino before the 2022 draft so we could've use that 1st we got for Miller for him.
3) if Pitts was only willing to trade after the 2022 FA, we could've traded Lundkvist for a 1st to make it happen.
4) Ignore the fact that in reality Lundkvist was traded in Sept 2022 which is way after the FA and Dallas needed a D so who the hell knows if Dallas would give you a 1st right after FA started.
5) Ignore the fact that Lundkvist playing on our YOLO defense group with BB coaching would not depreciate his value significantly.

 

[bossram]

Because your complaint is not based on reality?
Here are the things that needs to be true for your scenario to work.
1) Smith is only worth a 2nd in Pitts eyes
2) Pitts was willing to trade Marino before the 2022 draft so we could've use that 1st we got for Miller for him.
3) if Pitts was only willing to trade after the 2022 FA, we could've traded Lundkvist for a 1st to make it happen.
4) Ignore the fact that in reality Lundkvist was traded in Sept 2022 which is way after the FA and Dallas needed a D so who the hell knows if Dallas would give you a 1st right after FA started.
5) Ignore the fact that Lundkvist playing on our YOLO defense group with BB coaching would not depreciate his value significantly.

And I've gone over with you ad nauseum about how it was possible.

You just refuse to believe that management could have possibly done anything else other than what the Canucks did

 

[TruGr1t]

I don't recall if there were any rumours about Marino at the time - and remember the perspective I'm talking about is the prior seasons trade deadline as you would need to trade Miller for cheap to have the assets for Marino.

The Canucks were in on Marino, they just wouldn't include Rathbone in the package, who it was rumoured the Pens wanted. Rather hilarious in retrospect, but there you go.

I suspect they were rather surprised with how little Marino was traded for in the end.

 

[tradervik]

The Canucks were in on Marino, they just wouldn't include Rathbone in the package, who it was rumoured the Pens wanted. Rather hilarious in retrospect, but there you go.

I suspect they were rather surprised with how little Marino was traded for in the end.

Where did you see this rumour?

 

[Hodgy]

And I've gone over with you ad nauseum about how it was possible.

You just refuse to believe that management could have possibly done anything else other than what the Canucks did

The Canucks could have acquired him if they were willing to give up their 2023 First Round Pick, otherwise, it seems very doubtful they could have given Rutherford's comments on them being in on all of the defensemen traded during that summer and that other teams preferred other players.

 

[Fatass]

The Canucks were in on Marino, they just wouldn't include Rathbone in the package, who it was rumoured the Pens wanted. Rather hilarious in retrospect, but there you go.

I suspect they were rather surprised with how little Marino was traded for in the end.

I don’t know about this. Seems to me Allvin would have certainly given up Rathbone if that was holding up getting Marino?

 

[Hodgy]

The Canucks were in on Marino, they just wouldn't include Rathbone in the package, who it was rumoured the Pens wanted. Rather hilarious in retrospect, but there you go.

I suspect they were rather surprised with how little Marino was traded for in the end.

Where did you see this rumour?

Ya, I've never heard that. In fact, Rutherford basically said the exact opposite when he mentioned that the teams trading defensemen that summer preferred other players.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I actually think Myers wouldn’t object to going to Chicago… NHL players are suckers for original six/“cool” markets and having Bedard there (and an opportunity to be a leader on the team) would be alluring.

I just dispute the idea that Myers suddenly gains positive value once his bonus is paid, because any team looking to upgrade won’t have the cap space. It still sounds like any candidates to take him would be “doing the Canucks a favor” and probably trying to extract an asset.

The Blackhawks signed Corey Perry for $4M and have nearly unlimited cap space next year. I don't think they'd need an asset to come with Myers.

 

[TruGr1t]

Where did you see this rumour?

Canucks: Taking trade swing for John Marino wasn't worth plausible price

The Canucks need a younger, talented partner for Hughes, but parting with top prospect Rathbone would have been risky.

theprovince.com

There's probably more if you dig around old SN650 podcasts, as I recall it was discussed pretty extensively at the time.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I don't know how anyone can speak confidently on the Marino issue. The Hextall/Burke front office made a lot of outlier player evaluations (Granlund?) and it's clear they thought very highly of Ty Smith. I don't think an extra 2nd or Jack Rathbone (or even Nils Lundqvist) gets it done.

 

[arttk]

And I've gone over with you ad nauseum about how it was possible.

You just refuse to believe that management could have possibly done anything else other than what the Canucks did

well i mean if you ignore the actual timelines and what they imply then yeah of course everything is possible.

even with the power of hindsight, you would know the trade Lundkvist to Dallas for 1st and then using that 1st to get Marino scenario probably can't happen because you can't will Dallas into giving you a 1st in July considering they spent all summer figuring shit out before coming to that conclusion.

or the idea that we can use the 1st from Miller to get Marino can't work because Pitts probably don't want to trade Marino until they gone through FA and got his replacement signed.

I am not saying they couldn't done anything. I think they should've moved off Garland for that rumored deal and done more to make the team better. But I really don't see the point of dwelling on scenarios are unrealistic for us, like the Marino scenario.

 

[rypper]

Seems like that's Ben Kuzma giving an opinion more then and rumor? Further in the article it gives the opinion of a "high ranking nhl insider" but neither is the kind of source I'd point to to have a definitive take on the subject.

 

[arttk]

View attachment 728406

Seems like that's Ben Kuzma giving an opinion more then and rumor? Further in the article it gives the opinion of a "high ranking nhl insider" but neither is the kind of source I'd point to to have a definitive take on the subject.

It’s so lazy for Kuzma to suggest Ratbone is any way comparable to Smith. Like yeah they are both men that plays the defense position in hockey and similarities kinda end there.