Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Also.

For what ever reason OEL and Myers had a massive bounce back year. And then 2022-23 happened to them.

I haven't liked Myers since day one, the guy thinks he's some offensive star, when in reality he's nothing close to that. He hurts his team more than anything when he likes to go on his offensive rushes and fail time and time again, because he can't get back in time, he should be one of the top shut down D in the league utilizing his long reach, but instead he plays like he thinks he's Bobby Orr and continues to do this year after year, it's so frustrating to watch. Schenn is better then OEL, and Schenn is super slow.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I haven't liked Myers since day one, the guy thinks he's some offensive star, when in reality he's nothing close to that. He hurts his team more than anything when he likes to go on his offensive rushes and fail time and time again, because he can't get back in time, he should be one of the top shut down D in the league utilizing his long reach, but instead he plays like he thinks he's Bobby Orr and continues to do this year after year, it's so frustrating to watch. Schenn is better then OEL, and Schenn is super slow.

I dont know what we are talking about anymore.

 

[RobertKron]

Or they said it took months to get Bear and were so happy to finally get him to just let him walk....

Well, yeah. He's going to be out for quite a long time, and they need to have someone in that spot next year. Also, they probably thought the QO was spendy for a guy coming off a major shoulder injury.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

I dont know what we are talking about anymore.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Well, yeah. He's going to be out for quite a long time, and they need to have someone in that spot next year. Also, they probably thought the QO was spendy for a guy coming off a major shoulder injury.

Interesting then how JR sent a message to season ticket holders after this year still praising Bear for the future, even though he wasn't that good....

 

[MarkMM]

Ummmmm ok I’ll bite. Whos 6 defenders are worse than ours? Name 5 teams.


We have Wolainen / Julssen / Jeff Woo etc penciled in our bottom pair for f*** sakes.

Only Wolanin is pencilled in, and I think he's perfectly serviceable there and in fact good value there, much better than over-paying for it. Might be different opinions on his play, but I don't think moves were made to replace him because management believes (which I agree) that he should be fine and attention should be spent elsewhere.

So this management group who continued to say to the public it was just structure was the problem, even though majority knew the D was crap under the last 4 coaches, is now realizing the D is not good enough . Oh and how they tried selling Bear as a piece going forward was kind of funny, because it shows how they over evaluated him, so definitely makes you a little skeptical going forward on who the go after.

Management has been saying since day one that this team needs "major surgery", and have been talking about the need to rebuild the defence...AND deal with structure.

Both are needed and there's nothing wrong with management saying that the first priority should be the things immediately within their control, which is structure, discipline and work ethic. Bear's comments comparing the Canucks to Carolina are accurate and damning, it's not like they're only allowed to identify structure or personnel, it's both and they've been talking about both.

As for Bear, I think it was pretty obvious they wanted to hold on to him until the injury.

Cole on the top pair with Hughes doesn’t sit right with me. It’s like having Schenn there all over again. Too old and asking to to do too much and too many minutes. I still think we need a top 4 right shot defenceman to pair with Hughes.

It should be something like:

Hughes-???
Soucy-Hronek
Wolanin-Cole

I do agree, but I think Cole is a placeholder until Willander is ready. Given what's available, I'm much happier them paying a little bit on no term for a bandaid than over-spending on cap, term and maybe assets to get what likely will be an underperformer (given who was available) and then be capped out when we have Willander ready.

Worried about what? This franchise has been over sold for the last 10 years, it's become a laughing stock, expectations are the lowest they have ever been since the Keenan years. I'm just pointing out how this management has been blaming structure and not the D, and now looks like they have flip flopped and realizing how bad the D really is, something fans who watch have been seeing for years.

I'm with you that it's been oversold for years but this is the first time I think you can see a pathway to make something of this core. Most of the bad cap is gone or will be gone, we've got balance starting to form and some depth / prospects to get excited for, and most of all, they haven't done any massive overpayments and their scouting decisions (at least on the pro level and early draft rounds) are looking like they know what they're doing.

Or they said it took months to get Bear and were so happy to finally get him to just let him walk....

Or Bear got injured and it didn't make sense to qualify him if he was going to be sitting out half the season with no guarantees of how he'd come back so they did the smart thing and moved on when circumstances beyond their control changed on them. Like you're not acknowledging AT ALL that the injury is a thing.

 

[Bubbles]

Honest to god I liked everything we did, but does it move the needle enough? I just don’t know.

Yep this is how I feel exactly.

The problem is, this team THINKS they are close. Close to a playoff spot. So they are very much acting like a team that's close to a wildcard spot.

Their definition of "contender" is definitely different than mine.

This is more or less a continuation of "Just make it in" theory of team building.

 

[RobertKron]

Interesting then how JR sent a message to season ticket holders after this year still praising Bear for the future, even though he wasn't that good....

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what we consider interesting.

Edit: Wait, are you talking about the letter that went out like two months before Bear got injured? You're mad because dude can't see the future?

 

[valkynax]

Gonna hold off the confetti and party hats until I see at 15 or so games into next season.

Offseason so far looks good, they are not splurging on UFAs, and no lengthy retirement deals are signed.

I wonder if Hronek can actually play to top pair level.

 

[RobertKron]

Yep this is how I feel exactly.

The problem is, this team THINKS they are close. Close to a playoff spot. So they are very much acting like a team that's close to a wildcard spot.

Their definition of "contender" is definitely different than mine.

This is more or less a continuation of "Just make it in" theory of team building.

I dunno. Which of these moves do you think signals that they think this is a "contender" and are going in on it?

It's a franchise that has been absolute garbage for like a decade and has some really exciting, talented young players. So far it looks like they're trying to build around that group without doing anything really long-term drastic because it's still reality, and the team needs something to sell to the fans before they become irrelevant.

If the team ends up falling on their face again this season, Cole, Blueger, and Irwin are one-year deals and they can try to move them along at the deadline. Like, you can't really be much more conservative than that, given the holes they needed to fill just to ice an NHL lineup.

"Just make it in" is the Miller trade and acquiring OEL and whatnot. This is closer to just like, somewhat cautiously filling out the roster and trying to make it better in the process.

 

[RandV]

I dunno. Which of these moves do you think signals that they think this is a "contender" and are going in on it?

It's a franchise that has been absolute garbage for like a decade and has some really exciting, talented players. They're trying to build around that group without doing anything really drastic because it's still reality, and the team needs something to sell to the fans before they become irrelevant.

"Just make it in" is the Miller trade and acquiring OEL and whatnot. This is closer to just like, filling out the roster and trying to make it better in the process.

I've said it previously that line was basically just Benning pleading to save his job and/or get one more chance, and has no real relation to current management. They're going into the season with the goal of making the playoffs, but they're not under the illusion that they're going to win the Cup on the first try and neither are they under the threat that they'll lose their jobs if they don't show something - it's only their second off season. The goal is to establish a team that can make the playoffs first and then work on it from there.

 

[RobertKron]

I've said it previously that line was basically just Benning pleading to save his job and/or get one more chance, and has no real relation to current management. They're going into the season with the goal of making the playoffs, but they're not under the illusion that they're going to win the Cup on the first try and neither are they under the threat that they'll lose their jobs if they don't show something - it's only their second off season. The goal is to establish a team that can make the playoffs first and then work on it from there.

I edited late, but honestly the moves so far have almost kind of a cynical undertone rather than a "yeah this is our year" feeling about them. I really don't understand how the takeaway from yesterday could be that they're going all-in to "just make it in."

 

[Bubbles]

I dunno. Which of these moves do you think signals that they think this is a "contender" and are going in on it?

It's a franchise that has been absolute garbage for like a decade and has some really exciting, talented young players. They're trying to build around that group without doing anything really drastic because it's still reality, and the team needs something to sell to the fans before they become irrelevant.

"Just make it in" is the Miller trade and acquiring OEL and whatnot. This is closer to just like, filling out the roster and trying to make it better in the process.

Well, all these moves are lower level, which the team will push to them to the edge (of the wildcard)

Miller trade was to speed the rebuild. Here's the quote;

"If we don't make the playoffs next year we are protected, we have lottery protection, and if we do make the playoffs it just speeds up the process of where we are at in our rebuild and pushes it a little bit further ahead for us."

Mind you, there was never a rebuild at all.

OEL was aquired because Benning always sold "one player away".

My definition of contender is a team that's finished among the top, constantly making the playoffs.

Allvin/Aqua's definition of contender is squeaking in the playoffs and see what happens.

Like I said, different meanings to different people.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

The Canucks should permanently employ the trainer Kuz is working with this summer.

 

[RobertKron]

Well, all these moves are lower level, which the team will push to them to the edge (of the wildcard)

Miller trade was to speed the rebuild. Here's the quote;

"If we don't make the playoffs next year we are protected, we have lottery protection, and if we do make the playoffs it just speeds up the process of where we are at in our rebuild and pushes it a little bit further ahead for us."

Mind you, there was never a rebuild at all.

OEL was aquired because Benning always sold "one player away".

My definition of contender is a team that's finished among the top, constantly making the playoffs.

Allvin/Aqua's definition of contender is squeaking in the playoffs and see what happens.

Like I said, different meanings to different people.

Gonna need to cite your sources there.

Like, are you expecting them to not try to get better? To try not to make the playoffs? To just start the season with three defensemen and just let them play the whole game? Were you expecting them to not sign anyone?

Conversely, what do you think they could have done yesterday to make them an actual contender? Do you think it's even realistically possible for the team to go from where they're at right now to being a legit contender on opening night?

 

[pitseleh]

I edited late, but honestly the moves so far have almost kind of a cynical undertone rather than a "yeah this is our year" feeling about them. I really don't understand how the takeaway from yesterday could be that they're going all-in to "just make it in."

I didn’t take the comment you were responding to be saying they were going all-in with these moves, just that there’s concern the team thinks this is enough.

These were all necessary moves no matter what else they try to do and they did a good job with them.

But this is offseason is a failure if this is all they accomplish given the direction they’ve chosen. They had the chance to reset a bit, be a bubble team that competes only to make the playoffs for a couple years, then pushes forward. They instead decided to push their chips in to make the next 2-3 years hugely important. This is their window now to push the team to the next level while Pettersson, Demko, Kuzmenko and Hronek are still cheap and Miller still provides value on his contract and not waste yet another year.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Only Wolanin is pencilled in, and I think he's perfectly serviceable there and in fact good value there, much better than over-paying for it. Might be different opinions on his play, but I don't think moves were made to replace him because management believes (which I agree) that he should be fine and attention should be spent elsewhere.



Management has been saying since day one that this team needs "major surgery", and have been talking about the need to rebuild the defence...AND deal with structure.

Both are needed and there's nothing wrong with management saying that the first priority should be the things immediately within their control, which is structure, discipline and work ethic. Bear's comments comparing the Canucks to Carolina are accurate and damning, it's not like they're only allowed to identify structure or personnel, it's both and they've been talking about both.

As for Bear, I think it was pretty obvious they wanted to hold on to him until the injury.



I do agree, but I think Cole is a placeholder until Willander is ready. Given what's available, I'm much happier them paying a little bit on no term for a bandaid than over-spending on cap, term and maybe assets to get what likely will be an underperformer (given who was available) and then be capped out when we have Willander ready.



I'm with you that it's been oversold for years but this is the first time I think you can see a pathway to make something of this core. Most of the bad cap is gone or will be gone, we've got balance starting to form and some depth / prospects to get excited for, and most of all, they haven't done any massive overpayments and their scouting decisions (at least on the pro level and early draft rounds) are looking like they know what they're doing.



Or Bear got injured and it didn't make sense to qualify him if he was going to be sitting out half the season with no guarantees of how he'd come back so they did the smart thing and moved on when circumstances beyond their control changed on them. Like you're not acknowledging AT ALL that the injury is a thing.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what we consider interesting.

Edit: Wait, are you talking about the letter that went out like two months before Bear got injured? You're mad because dude can't see the future?

It was a blessing that Bear got injured because this management saw him as the future of this team, when he was overrated by this management.

Yes I'm talking about that message I'm mad that they were still convinced he was a piece going forward and tried to sell that to season ticket holders. The point is they keep saying things that aren't valid when you watch the games they play. But what do most people do, believe everything they say, that's been working out pretty well the last 10 years right....

 

[RobertKron]

I didn’t take the comment you were responding to be saying they were going all-in with these moves, just that there’s concern the team thinks this is enough.

These were all necessary moves no matter what else they try to do and they did a good job with them.

But this is offseason is a failure if this is all they accomplish given the direction they’ve chosen. They had the chance to reset a bit, be a bubble team that competes only to make the playoffs for a couple years, then pushes forward. They instead decided to push their chips in to make the next 2-3 years hugely important. This is their window now to push the team to the next level while Pettersson, Demko, Kuzmenko and Hronek are still cheap and Miller still provides value on his contract and not waste yet another year.

This is fair, but I just don't think you can expect that those moves were out there yesterday. Yesterday was basically always going to be about not making a mess of things more than vaulting the team to the next level.

I suspect they see this year as one where they try to clean up some messes and build a strong basis for improvement and a real push the next season, but maybe something shakes loose over the summer that really pushes them ahead.

 

[Bubbles]

Gonna need to cite your sources there.

Like, are you expecting them to not try to get better? To try not to make the playoffs? To just start the season with three defensemen and just let them play the whole game? Were you expecting them to not sign anyone?

Conversely, what do you think they could have done yesterday to make them an actual contender? Do you think it's even realistically possible for the team to go from where they're at right now to being a legit contender on opening night?

Not sure why you're hung up on Allvin's words...it's really down to the moves they make. Benning's quotes all the time were preaching patience and he goes off and does the opposite.

Allvin literally said at his end of season presser he doesnt like buyouts and he does one right away.

The four biggest takeaways from Patrik Allvin and Rick Tocchet’s end of season press conference

They will never be a legitimate contender until they do a proper rebuild, and strip the foundation to the studs. Hell, dig up the land and salt it for a few years. But Aqua will never allow it.

 

[RobertKron]

It was a blessing that Bear got injured because this management saw him as the future of this team, when he was overrated by this management.

Yes I'm talking about that message I'm mad that they were still convinced he was a piece going forward and tried to sell that to season ticket holders. The point is they keep saying things that aren't valid when you watch the games they play. But what do most people do, believe everything they say, that's been working out pretty well the last 10 years right....

Alanis Morissette

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I dunno. Which of these moves do you think signals that they think this is a "contender" and are going in on it?

It's a franchise that has been absolute garbage for like a decade and has some really exciting, talented young players. So far it looks like they're trying to build around that group without doing anything really long-term drastic because it's still reality, and the team needs something to sell to the fans before they become irrelevant.

If the team ends up falling on their face again this season, Cole, Blueger, and Irwin are one-year deals and they can try to move them along at the deadline. Like, you can't really be much more conservative than that, given the holes they needed to fill just to ice an NHL lineup.

"Just make it in" is the Miller trade and acquiring OEL and whatnot. This is closer to just like, somewhat cautiously filling out the roster and trying to make it better in the process.

Almost all of the cap relief for the OEL buyout is for the up coming season.
Trading 1st + 2nd for Hronek who is cost controlled for next season only.
Miller extension that you should (or at least I would) expect to not be a great to have on the books in 3 maybe 4 years.

They've got a ton of chips in.

 

[RobertKron]

Not sure why you're hung up on Allvin's words...it's really down to the moves they make. Benning's quotes all the time were preaching patience and he goes off and does the opposite.

Allvin literally said at his end of season presser he doesnt like buyouts and he does one right away.

The four biggest takeaways from Patrik Allvin and Rick Tocchet’s end of season press conference

They will never be a legitimate contender until they do a proper rebuild, and strip the foundation to the studs. Hell, dig up the land and salt it for a few years. But Aqua will never allow it.

They're obviously not going to do that. The team has been terrible for like a decade, and interest is waning. They have an opportunity to, as a baseline, pretty reliably build themselves a WCE-era type team where you have an inherently flawed team with a group of really, legitimately exciting players that the fans can engage with. It would be stupid of them to waste that, regardless of how much some die-hards want them to only focus on winning the cup and ignore everything else.

 

[arttk]

Interesting then how JR sent a message to season ticket holders after this year still praising Bear for the future, even though he wasn't that good....

Uhhh circumstances changed and they change course. It’s not that hard to understand.

 

[pitseleh]

This is fair, but I just don't think you can expect that those moves were out there yesterday. Yesterday was basically always going to be about not making a mess of things more than vaulting the team to the next level.

Absolutely - it’s too soon to criticize. Let’s see what the roster looks like come training camp.

I suspect they see this year as one where they try to clean up some messes and build a strong basis for improvement and a real push the next season, but maybe something shakes loose over the summer that really pushes them ahead.

I don’t think that’s good enough. They basically gave themselves a four year window and have already wasted one year. If they don’t have a plan to take advantage of this year they’ve badly mismanaged their situation.

 

[arttk]

They will never be a legitimate contender until they do a proper rebuild, and strip the foundation to the studs.

Too early to tell.