Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[bossram]

Like Horvat?

Again, the point is that these players, and their agents, are savvy enough to know what teams need to do in order to get better. If that means getting draft capital, then it is what it is. If that means getting players, fine too. But Pettersson should never be in a position to dictate or decide what is best for the franchise. That's the main point of what Drance is saying.

The franchise has to do what is right for them, first and foremost, and players can be traded. Example they gave is Lebron in Miami. Pat Riley refused to make him bigger than the team. The coach and the culture came first.

Yep. So what is @arttk advocating for? Making poor moves that will placate Pettersson? Should they just make Petey the shadow GM?

If it's at that point, the organization has already lost. That's not a committed player.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

hey we agreed that Boeser has great hair.

There was something else we agreed on but you insisted we actually didn't.

I don't remember what it was.

 

[arttk]

Yep. So what is @arttk advocating for? Making poor moves that will placate Pettersson? Should they just make Petey the shadow GM?

If it's at that point, the organization has already lost. That's not a committed player.

I advocate making good moves.

Why are you so damn old school about wanting blind loyalty from employees? Employers need to give employees a reason to be loyal, you wouldn’t just expect them to be loyal just because. Like, what have we done as an org for him to expect loyalty to the degree where he wants to commit to like 4+ years of losing.

There was something else we agreed on but you insisted we actually didn't.

I don't remember what it was.

We have a long list of stuff lol. Hey that’s what discussion boards are for, if we agree on everything then what’s their to talk about. It just becomes a bitching echo chamber.

 

[RandV]

Like Horvat?

Again, the point is that these players, and their agents, are savvy enough to know what teams need to do in order to get better. If that means getting draft capital, then it is what it is. If that means getting players, fine too. But Pettersson should never be in a position to dictate or decide what is best for the franchise. That's the main point of what Drance is saying.

The franchise has to do what is right for them, first and foremost, and players can be traded. Example they gave is Lebron in Miami. Pat Riley refused to make him bigger than the team. The coach and the culture came first.

Pettersson "dictating" stuff sounds like fan nonsense to me. Rather it's more a reality check thing, his contractual rights will allow him the choice to leave Vancouver soon.

He doesn't have to "dictate" anything. If he's not happy with the team he has the choice to not sign long term and then walk. What Vancouver management needs to concern themselves with is how can or should they do what they can to entice him to sign a long term contract.

It's not like they ever brought up the question to him if he'd be happy if they team went into a short or long term rebuild phase, that's what a lot of Canuck fans are wanting. Canucks management is ttmrying to compete around what they have regardless, and we seem to have the idea that Pettersson isn't happy on an uncompetitive team.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Top guys are different from middling players. They should, and do believe they can spear head a successful team. They also know they can't just air drop their big payday on to the previous cup winners every year.

EP has only been available for 3 playoffs. One year he played 3 rounds, one season played like shit and was a big part of missing, and then this year. Not exactly a Hall/Eichel situation. Also he's a Swede.... dunno, seem to have better luck with them. Expect he will take the big $.

Hughes is the guy that we need to focus on, he has only 4 years left, is our best player, and the Yank factor. It's his timeline that needs to be opened up.

 

[bossram]

I advocate making good moves.

Why are you so damn old school about wanting blind loyalty from employees? Employers need to give employees a reason to be loyal, you wouldn’t just expect them to be loyal just because. Like, what have we done as an org for him to expect loyalty to the degree where he wants to commit to like 4+ years of losing.

What you are advocating for is to do literally anything to placate Petey, whether it's a smart move or not.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I advocate making good moves.

Why are you so damn old school about wanting blind loyalty from employees? Employers need to give employees a reason to be loyal, you wouldn’t just expect them to be loyal just because. Like, what have we done as an org for him to expect loyalty to the degree where he wants to commit to like 4+ years of losing.


We have a long list of stuff lol. Hey that’s what discussion boards are for, if we agree on everything then what’s their to talk about. It just becomes a bitching echo chamber.

I would unfortunately extend this problem to our current management. EP40 has zero reason to give a home town discount. At the moment there is no runway to contention in sight.

 

[arttk]

I would unfortunately extend this problem to our current management. EP40 has zero reason to give a home town discount. At the moment there is no runway to contention in sight.

I don’t think anyone expects a home town discount.

 

[arttk]

What you are advocating for is to do literally anything to placate Petey, whether it's a smart move or not.

That’s such a weird way to think. I don’t think management team’s objective is just to make Petey happy. It’s more like what they want to achieve aligns with what Petey wants. they want to improve the team to get into the playoffs and so does Petey. I think it’s Petey’s right to see how well this group can execute before he reups. I don’t think players are as stupid as you guys think they are. If this management group pull desperation moves left and right that burns all assets but doesn’t build a good team, the players would know that.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Pettersson "dictating" stuff sounds like fan nonsense to me. Rather it's more a reality check thing, his contractual rights will allow him the choice to leave Vancouver soon.

He doesn't have to "dictate" anything. If he's not happy with the team he has the choice to not sign long term and then walk. What Vancouver management needs to concern themselves with is how can or should they do what they can to entice him to sign a long term contract.

It's not like they ever brought up the question to him if he'd be happy if they team went into a short or long term rebuild phase, that's what a lot of Canuck fans are wanting. Canucks management is ttmrying to compete around what they have regardless, and we seem to have the idea that Pettersson isn't happy on an uncompetitive team.

JRPA comes in saying they need cap space and more picks. EP did an interview in the summer and said he wants to play for a competitive team. Team then spent millions in UFA and traded a 2nd to dump Dickinson, and the pick gained from a Horvat trade was quickly offloaded (with the addition of another pick) for a "now" piece.

It's not that far fatched to think that those actions, the ones that contradicted the original intent of management, are in response to the comments from EP. Whether "compete now at all cost" was always the intention of management, and their early days words are lies, or if EP changed their mind, we probably will never know.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I really recommend people listen to the latest Canucks Talk. Key points:

1. Pettersson should not dictate direction.
2. Do not bend to your best player's standard.
3. The management has overspent relative to gain, to this point.
4. Doesn't make sense for them to trade Demko, given they chased Hronek.
5. Not reading too much into JP Barry's comments.
6. JP Barry isn't stupid and understands GMs building teams properly vs foolishly.
7. Allvin should take note from the Miami Heat model/culture.
8. Bruins must be regretting choosing the players over Cassidy.
9. From here on out, it isn't the coach's fault. The players have to perform.
10. Canadian mismanaged due to impatience.
11. Teams operating on the Tkachuk faux nightmare are planning on the extreme exception.
12. VAN should not take a short term hit to move Boeser and Garland.

You know what's funny, doing everything to "compete now" to convince EP to extend, doesn't mean EP will even be here for the duration of that contract. Even if Petey signs an 8 year contract, he is free to hold out or force a trade or pout if the team still suck in 2, 3, 4 years.

The ONLY way to gaurantee to keep Petey on board is to build a good and competitive team in the long run. Let's see if they can pull it off.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

JRPA comes in saying they need cap space and more picks. EP did an interview in the summer and said he wants to play for a competitive team. Team then spent millions in UFA and traded a 2nd to dump Dickinson, and the pick gained from a Horvat trade was quickly offloaded (with the addition of another pick) for a "now" piece.

It's not that far fatched to think that those actions, the ones that contradicted the original intent of management, are in response to the comments from EP. Whether "compete now at all cost" was always the intention of management, and their early days words are lies, or if EP changed their mind, we probably will never know.

When did Rutherford say 'we need more picks'..?...He said that the Canucks had already completed their rebuild, and they were going to do a retool (which would take several years).

He was completely clear about that.

edit;....He did say they needed to get younger , and they shouldn't be giving up high picks at this stage..but I dont recall him ever saying that they need to hoard draft picks.

 

[mriswith]

What you are advocating for is to do literally anything to placate Petey, whether it's a smart move or not.

The "but Pettersson" argument has been being used constantly for the last year and a half to justify having zero foresight and making poor decisions. It's been the go-to defense.

After wasting all of the time where we were guaranteed to suck no matter what we did, good will and leverage over aqua that new mgmt had since coming onboard, I do think though that at this point it's too late to do anything other than all in on competing immediately. The "window" is at worst the Kuz contract and at best the Hughes contract, I've come to acceptance on that now.

 

[bossram]

The "but Pettersson" argument has been being used constantly for the last year and a half to justify having zero foresight and making poor decisions. It's been the go-to defense.

After wasting all of the time where we were guaranteed to suck no matter what we did, good will and leverage over aqua that new mgmt had since coming onboard, I do think though that at this point it's too late to do anything other than all in on competing immediately. The "window" is at worst the Kuz contract and at best the Hughes contract, I've come to acceptance on that now.

Important to note that “competing” in this context basically means a ceiling of the 2022-23 Winnipeg Jets.

Lofty goals.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

JRPA comes in saying they need cap space and more picks. EP did an interview in the summer and said he wants to play for a competitive team. Team then spent millions in UFA and traded a 2nd to dump Dickinson, and the pick gained from a Horvat trade was quickly offloaded (with the addition of another pick) for a "now" piece.

It's not that far fatched to think that those actions, the ones that contradicted the original intent of management, are in response to the comments from EP. Whether "compete now at all cost" was always the intention of management, and their early days words are lies, or if EP changed their mind, we probably will never know.

It is, though. This is loose loose correlation which is absolutely not causation.

In fact, all of the 'Petey's gonna leave!' stuff was histrionics by the usual suspects on these boards as well as click-bait by some of our 'journalists'.

All of the quotes are always clipped and taken without context.

Like he'll say something like, "Petey loves Vancouver and isn't thinking about his next contract. He's really focused on winning' (like a year before he even could sign a contract). And people will say, "We suck and will never win, ergo if I use my secret decoder ring he's saying he's leaving us!!!'

It's basically a nothing quote. Presumably they're all somewhat on the same page behind the scenes but trying to read tealeaves on platitudes from an agent is just confusion for its own sake.

 

[tradervik]

It's basically a nothing quote. Presumably they're all somewhat on the same page behind the scenes but trying to read tealeaves on platitudes from an agent is just confusion for its own sake.

You're referring to the quote from Barry about Pettersson's next contract? I wouldn't say it's a nothing quote. Sure it's no guarantee of a successful outcome but it is notable that Barry is talking about a long term contract and that he is providing a positive outlook. He said he's had contact with Canucks management and it's highly likely that the two parties have established they are on the same page unlike, say, the failed Horvat negotiations (where I don't recall any similar comments from Horvat's agent).

 

[rypper]

You're referring to the quote from Barry about Pettersson's next contract? I wouldn't say it's a nothing quote. Sure it's no guarantee of a successful outcome but it is notable that Barry is talking about a long term contract and that he is providing a positive outlook. He said he's had contact with Canucks management and it's highly likely that the two parties have established they are on the same page unlike, say, the failed Horvat negotiations (where I don't recall any similar comments from Horvat's agent).

Yeah it's 100% a nothing quote.

"Were going to talk about..."
"Elias is thinking about..."
"That is the plan right now..."

A lot of non commital statements that say nothing either way.

 

[tradervik]

Yeah it's 100% a nothing quote.

"Were going to talk about..."
"Elias is thinking about..."
"That is the plan right now..."

A lot of non commital statements that say nothing either way.

No, they say they are looking at a long term contract and the intention is to stay in Vancouver. To repeat, this is not a guarantee that there will be a successful outcome but it does indicate that the situation is positive at this moment. There could very well be hiccups when things get down to the nitty gritty but there's no point looking for problems unless you enjoy pointless pessimism.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

You're referring to the quote from Barry about Pettersson's next contract? I wouldn't say it's a nothing quote. Sure it's no guarantee of a successful outcome but it is notable that Barry is talking about a long term contract and that he is providing a positive outlook. He said he's had contact with Canucks management and it's highly likely that the two parties have established they are on the same page unlike, say, the failed Horvat negotiations (where I don't recall any similar comments from Horvat's agent).

You're agreeing with my point, I think. Because I concur that it's basically a platitude trending towards positive. I was speaking to those who read the tea leaves to say 'he's gone for sure. He said he want to win! That's code for he's gone!!!".

 

[racerjoe]

I am more positive about Petey signing now than I was last year. I think the fact the team is putting him in a position to succeed, and have a lot of the team’s success be on the back of that, gives me a more positive vibe… obviously could be wrong as I am just guessing like anyone else.

 

[MS]

Chytile had 22 points last season, taking him on would've been a big gamble. I guess if we are trading away Miller, we should have at least 1 asset that is pretty damn solid. Like higher 1st rounder, a young roster player that is pretty damn lock to be a good roster player or a prospect that has a high ceiling. It's hard to say the 30th overall pick, Chytile that put up 22points and Lundvist that didn't play well in the A fulfill any of those requirements.

Miller is a PPG guy, definitely not a 99pt guy but I don't think it would be surprising if he touches 90 points again if we get a 3rd line center that takes on bulk of the defensive matchups.

Agreed on the second paragraph - there was an avenue to get good value from Miller as secondarily this could've allowed the team to be in the sweepstakes for a guy like Carlsson, Smith, and others.

But Chytil's 5v5 production that season wasn't encouraging. He looked like he stagnated and actually took a step back from the prior shortened year. My recollection isn't the best from a couple years ago but he didn't look like the player he did in the shortened year. 20 5v5 points in 67 vs 22 in 42 the year before. Was also fed a LOT of O zone starts.

He would've been pretty underwhelming as the main part of a trade for a guy like Miller, who came off an impressive 99 point season and could've been retained at 50% at the deadline for 2 playoff runs or in the offseason for 1.

I'm actually amazed that people are still on on this.

That rumoured NYR package was terrible and they did exactly the right thing by not taking a crap package centered around a 6-goal 3rd liner.

The especially funny thing is the way this board lost their minds when Chytil scored 11 goals in a 13 game stretch last year and has then maintained the position that he was some sort of big loss when he crashed back down to earth with 4 goals in his next 38 games and was playing 11 minutes on the 4th line by the end of the playoffs.

And now he's signed basically the bad Beauvillier deal and is getting $4.4 million for a guy who is probably a 35-40 point player going forward, and is probably more of a winger than a C.

___________

And the Horvat crowd vs. Miller crowd thing where both sides keep arguing that their guy great and the other guy is the WORST ANYTHING EVER is the single dumbest thing on these boards right now. I think I lost brain cells reading through the last 5 pages of tripe.

 

[strattonius]

I'm actually amazed that people are still on on this.

That rumoured NYR package was terrible and they did exactly the right thing by not taking a crap package centered around a 6-goal 3rd liner.

The especially funny thing is the way this board lost their minds when Chytil scored 11 goals in a 13 game stretch last year and has then maintained the position that he was some sort of big loss when he crashed back down to earth with 4 goals in his next 38 games and was playing 11 minutes on the 4th line by the end of the playoffs.

And now he's signed basically the bad Beauvillier deal and is getting $4.4 million for a guy who is probably a 35-40 point player going forward, and is probably more of a winger than a C.

___________

And the Horvat crowd vs. Miller crowd thing where both sides keep arguing that their guy great and the other guy is the WORST ANYTHING EVER is the single dumbest thing on these boards right now. I think I lost brain cells reading through the last 5 pages of tripe.

I dont get the Chytil love either. The 'kid' line got hot with Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere then totally lost it over the end of the season. He's a 45 pt middle 6 fwd..who cares. He's also perfectly insulated in that deep Ranger fwd group which is why that kid line got hot to begin with.

 

[MS]

I dont get the Chytil love either. The 'kid' line got hot with Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere then totally lost it over the end of the season. He's a 45 pt middle 6 fwd..who cares. He's also perfectly insulated in that deep Ranger fwd group which is why that kid line got hot to begin with.

It's just such hindsight nonsense based on a fluke hot streak.

Like, at the exact same time that Chytil went on that hot streak was when the Horvat trade discussions were happening and the same people who were like OMG HOW DID WE MISS OUT ON CHYTIL?!? wanted nothing to do with a player like Alex Newhook (a nearly identical sort of profile to Chytil, except probably better) back in that trade.

And with the contract that that hot run then gave Chytil, he's in the exact same ballpark as guys like Garland and Beauvillier where he has extremely marginal value as an overpaid 40-point middle-6 forward.

 

[arttk]

I'm actually amazed that people are still on on this.

That rumoured NYR package was terrible and they did exactly the right thing by not taking a crap package centered around a 6-goal 3rd liner.

The especially funny thing is the way this board lost their minds when Chytil scored 11 goals in a 13 game stretch last year and has then maintained the position that he was some sort of big loss when he crashed back down to earth with 4 goals in his next 38 games and was playing 11 minutes on the 4th line by the end of the playoffs.

And now he's signed basically the bad Beauvillier deal and is getting $4.4 million for a guy who is probably a 35-40 point player going forward, and is probably more of a winger than a C.

___________

And the Horvat crowd vs. Miller crowd thing where both sides keep arguing that their guy great and the other guy is the WORST ANYTHING EVER is the single dumbest thing on these boards right now. I think I lost brain cells reading through the last 5 pages of tripe.

I see people crit JT for being not that good on the PK but somehow say we should get Chytil who has ZERO ability to PK. It’s f***ing insane.
I guess people just want change for changes sake which is not understandable considering how shit this team has been.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I'm actually amazed that people are still on on this.

That rumoured NYR package was terrible and they did exactly the right thing by not taking a crap package centered around a 6-goal 3rd liner.

The especially funny thing is the way this board lost their minds when Chytil scored 11 goals in a 13 game stretch last year and has then maintained the position that he was some sort of big loss when he crashed back down to earth with 4 goals in his next 38 games and was playing 11 minutes on the 4th line by the end of the playoffs.

And now he's signed basically the bad Beauvillier deal and is getting $4.4 million for a guy who is probably a 35-40 point player going forward, and is probably more of a winger than a C.

___________

And the Horvat crowd vs. Miller crowd thing where both sides keep arguing that their guy great and the other guy is the WORST ANYTHING EVER is the single dumbest thing on these boards right now. I think I lost brain cells reading through the last 5 pages of tripe.

This.

The confirmation bias hindsight nonsense is endless.

Recall please that we all laughed at that proposed deal and found it insulting.

But then Miller had a rough start, Chytil had a good stretch. And the hindsight bias folks come out in droves.