Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[PuckMunchkin]

Horvat aint 7M. Strange way to try and convince someone you're right.

What a clever way to missunderstand what Im saying on purpose to serve your agument.

Horvat 8.5M 65 pt goal scorer.
Miller 8.0M point per game power forward.

POWER!

Miller is 12th in NHL scoring the last 4 years. That puts him in a tier of players including Zibanejad, Connor, Rantanen. All these players are powerplay producers.

Miller is far and away a better player than Horvat.

That is probably the most idiotic thing I've read all year.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

No I am talking about the offseason we signed him... I don't think he signs here if we are trading Miller and Horvat that offseason. Again before we even signed him...

Then yes as @Vector said. It was a freaking 2nd.... you are trading him for a 2nd...

And Horvat wanted the EXACT contract Couturier has.

Am I right?

 

[Jyrki21]

Vancouver prioritizing players over picks while still being TRASH............... is the same backasswards thinking that got them into this mess of missing the playoffs 8 of the past 9 years

Q: how come we dont have picks?
A: we used them in trades to compete now and to clear cap
---
Q: Compete now? that must mean you guys are pretty good or knocking on the door?
A: Actually no, we suck while still spending to the cap
---
Q: Ohh so you have cap troubles?
A: we do, because we dont have cost controlled assets and picks and we spend in free agency
---
Q: how come you don't have picks:
A: you already asked that, and you're seeing the endless toxic loop we are stuck in

This is so bang-on.

 

[racerjoe]

And Horvat wanted the EXACT contract Couturier has.

Am I right?

This is why I have all but stopped replying to you... He did end up signing for more money... I don't think this is the point you think it is.

Even more, this isn't proving what you think it is.

 

[arttk]

I think you are misunderstanding my point about his PP production if you think I am using it against him somehow. All I am saying is he is good on the PP and that is where most of his value comes from BUT he is also in one of the best spots in the NHL to pick up points on the PP. This inflates his PP production.


I would counter that his defensive results went up much more than his play did. He didn't have the disconnected controller moments that were so egregious early on but still he is who he is.



The initial disagreement was about who we should have kept, Horvat or Miller.

Im 100% sure we wont agree what sort of deal the management could have reached for Horvat this summer. Before his white hot start to the year I would argue ~7 mil per would have got it done but I am just going to presume we disagree on this...?

But would you at least agree that keeping Horvat at around 7mil per over Miller at 8mil per would have made more sense with where our team is currently at? Because of their age difference.

The PP runs through him, I am not sure the statement his point total is inflated by being on this PP makes that much sense especially considering how consistent he has been at it since he joined. It’s not like our PP was gold before he joined and he is leeching off something that works well already.

Yeah when he is frustrated he will have controller disconnect moments but it seems like your view of him are heavily influenced by those moments.

I will take Miller at 8 over Horvat at 7, not even a contest. First off, Bo and Miller both are meh on the PK and also as a matchup center. With either of them, we will need a 3C to be PK1 and be the main matchup guy. So if I need a 3C to do that regardless of who I keep, why the f*** am I going to pick the 60ish point guy over the 80ish point guy? To save 1M? Is Bo’s defense so much more superior than Miller’s defense to make up 20ish points?
Miller is the superior player with the same defects Bo has, you take the superior player all the time.
hell I would argue Bo at 7 is still a shitty deal.

Never mind the fact Bo wanted a lot. He signed for 8.5, it’s a joke to think he would’ve been fine with just 7. His camp was asking for Courturier money which is like 7.7?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is why I have all but stopped replying to you... He did end up signing for more money... I don't think this is the point you think it is.

Even more, this isn't proving what you think it is.

I've more or less done the same with you.

I dont think you are being honest. And as a result the conversations just never go anywhere.

 

[Vector]

Y'all are a bunch of weirdos.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The PP runs through him, I am not sure the statement his point total is inflated by being on this PP makes that much sense especially considering how consistent he has been at it since he joined. It’s not like our PP was gold before he joined and he is leeching off something that works well already.

Yeah when he is frustrated he will have controller disconnect moments but it seems like your view of him are heavily influenced by those moments.

I will take Miller at 8 over Horvat at 7, not even a contest. First off, Bo and Miller both are meh on the PK and also as a matchup center. With either of them, we will need a 3C to be PK1 and be the main matchup guy. So if I need a 3C to do that regardless of who I keep, why the f*** am I going to pick the 60ish point guy over the 80ish point guy? To save 1M? Is Bo’s defense so much more superior than Miller’s defense to make up 20ish points?
Miller is the superior player with the same defects Bo has, you take the superior player all the time.
hell I would argue Bo at 7 is still a shitty deal.

Never mind the fact Bo wanted a lot. He signed for 8.5, it’s a joke to think he would’ve been fine with just 7. His camp was asking for Courturier money which is like 7.7?

Okay. That tells me that we just (still) disagree on pretty much every single thing about this team and how it should be ran. From big picture to the smallest details.

Its actually pretty interesting how that is even possible. Oh well. @Vector any idea how its possible?

Carry on!

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Quelle surprise, no response from good ole Pastor on being dismantled yet again. Either with the 'Benning had no choice' narrative he was parroting for literal years or his nonsense about always being keen on Nylander, lmao.

the luigi thing is franky trying to blame his dad and absolve himself of any responsibility

no shot in hell luigi builds a real estate empire and "likes" jet black jim

I dunno about that. Luigi's old school and probably has an old school view of the game.

Benning probably played into that vibe. Old real estate guys can be f***ing idiots when it's about anything beyond greasing the right people to get their next development approved, even if they're incredibly rich and successful.

 

[sting101]

Y'all are a bunch of weirdos.

more like...

 

[Vector]

more like....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH8yt71CDNU

Edit: While you edited your post, I think this is a good joke so I'm going to leave it.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Miller is a better defender than Bo ever was.

He gets pissy and hotdogs on the backcheck sometimes. That definitely isn't ok, but that's hardly the whole story of a center's defensive responsibilities.

Miller is pretty good at zone coverage. He reads the play well, gets into lanes. He supports his D down low in the defensive zone. He looks like a normal center out there.

Bo Horvat is a trainwreck who outright refuses to perform even the most basic defensive responsibilities of his position. He refuses to support his D down low, and instead hovers up around the blue line looking for a breakout. Oftentimes he will blow the zone, and Bo will be standing out in the neutral zone all by himself when the puck is in the back of our net. He just straight up refused to play like a center and support his D. Didnt wanna do it.

He is also not very bright and could never figure out positioning in the defensive zone. I've watched with my own eyes Bo Horvat dashing from the high slot out to the point in a straight line chasing a puck that the opposing defenseman had. That sounds bad right? Why is the center dashing out to the point like that?

Oh. But wait. It gets worse. Pearson was already covering that defenseman. One of our wingers was already there covering the play. Bo didn't care. He had dreams. He literally charged in a straight line, pushed Pearson out of the way, created a huge gaping hole which caused a line breakdown an a scoring chance against.

Pearson during the play stopped, turned around and looked at Bo, then literally threw his hands up in the air as if to say "WTF DUDE?"

That is Bo Horvat. Blows the zone. Refuses to perform the most basic defensive responsibilities of his position by supporting his D down low. And terrible zone coverage on a nightly basis, leading to huge gaps opening up and defensive breakdowns. Bo Horvat was singularly responsible for defensive breakdowns on a near shift by shift basis, he was that bad.

Miller isn't Fedorov, but he sure as heck is miles better than Bo Horvat.

To be frank with you, I just can't take any Canucks fan seriously who says Bo Horvat has a good 2 way game. It just entirely discredits everything you say. It's an opinion a person can have only if 1) They dont watch hockey, or 2) They dont understand hockey.

Some of the most insanely masturbatory nonsense I've seen

"The guy we kept is SUPER UNDERRATED and the guy we traded WAS SINGLEHANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY GOAL SCORED WITH HIM ON THE ICE. Anyone who doesn't agree is a moron"

 

[arttk]

Okay. That tells me that we just (still) disagree on pretty much every single thing about this team and how it should be ran. From big picture to the smallest details.

Its actually pretty interesting how that is even possible. Oh well. @Vector any idea how its possible?

Carry on!

hey we agreed that Boeser has great hair.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I really recommend people listen to the latest Canucks Talk. Key points:

1. Pettersson should not dictate direction.
2. Do not bend to your best player's standard.
3. The management has overspent relative to gain, to this point.
4. Doesn't make sense for them to trade Demko, given they chased Hronek.
5. Not reading too much into JP Barry's comments.
6. JP Barry isn't stupid and understands GMs building teams properly vs foolishly.
7. Allvin should take note from the Miami Heat model/culture.
8. Bruins must be regretting choosing the players over Cassidy.
9. From here on out, it isn't the coach's fault. The players have to perform.
10. Canadian mismanaged due to impatience.
11. Teams operating on the Tkachuk faux nightmare are planning on the extreme exception.
12. VAN should not take a short term hit to move Boeser and Garland.

 

[Vector]

Oh cool the Canucks will get their money ba...



Oh f***ing come on.

 

[Vector]

Seriously that's a smart change. From the way it was, the Sedins wouldn't be allowed to train with any of the guys even if they were asked. Much better to do it this way.

 

[strattonius]

What a clever way to missunderstand what Im saying on purpose to serve your agument.


POWER!

That is probably the most idiotic thing I've read all year.

Just talking production wise. It's a fact.

The difference between Jt Miller and Horvat is about the same difference between JT Miller and Rantanen.

 

[Lindgren]

I really recommend people listen to the latest Canucks Talk. Key points:

1. Pettersson should not dictate direction.
2. Do not bend to your best player's standard.
3. The management has overspent relative to gain, to this point.
4. Doesn't make sense for them to trade Demko, given they chased Hronek.
5. Not reading too much into JP Barry's comments.
6. JP Barry isn't stupid and understands GMs building teams properly vs foolishly.
7. Allvin should take note from the Miami Heat model/culture.
8. Bruins must be regretting choosing the players over Cassidy.
9. From here on out, it isn't the coach's fault. The players have to perform.
10. Canadian mismanaged due to impatience.
11. Teams operating on the Tkachuk faux nightmare are planning on the extreme exception.
12. VAN should not take a short term hit to move Boeser and Garland.

A key one here is #6.

The argument that I commonly hear is something to the effect that players don't care about draft picks or prospects; it's all about the here and now, etc. That's likely true to a degree, but it's taken to such an extreme that it seems to assume all players, together with their agents, are idiots, with the planning abilities of a labrador puppy.

 

[Bleach Clean]

A key one here is #6.

The argument that I commonly hear is something to the effect that players don't care about draft picks or prospects; it's all about the here and now, etc. That's likely true to a degree, but it's taken to such an extreme that it seems to assume all players, together with their agents, are idiots, with the planning abilities of a labrador puppy.

Yes, it sandwiches "I don't want to rebuild" with "I don't know how proper teams are run, even though I have eyes and a brain, and my agent is advising me about how they are run".

 

[4Twenty]

Didn’t Miller break out production wise at the same age Bo just finished?

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Why

Oh cool the Canucks will get their money ba...



Oh f***ing come on.

Why do I have the feeling that the league made the rule ONE skills coach so our players couldn’t train with the Sedins just to screw with us?

 

[arttk]

I really recommend people listen to the latest Canucks Talk. Key points:

1. Pettersson should not dictate direction.
2. Do not bend to your best player's standard.
3. The management has overspent relative to gain, to this point.
4. Doesn't make sense for them to trade Demko, given they chased Hronek.
5. Not reading too much into JP Barry's comments.
6. JP Barry isn't stupid and understands GMs building teams properly vs foolishly.
7. Allvin should take note from the Miami Heat model/culture.
8. Bruins must be regretting choosing the players over Cassidy.
9. From here on out, it isn't the coach's fault. The players have to perform.
10. Canadian mismanaged due to impatience.
11. Teams operating on the Tkachuk faux nightmare are planning on the extreme exception.
12. VAN should not take a short term hit to move Boeser and Garland.

There is a reason why Petterson would not be interested in a rebuild. He’s 24, ask him go through another 4 years of rebuild and he is going to be 28 by then. Can you imagine a pkayer being happy to play on a losing team from age 19-28?

Yeah ideally we shouldn’t have direction be based on his preference but the consequence of that will be him forcing his way out and anyone should be able to understand why.

 

[Bleach Clean]

There is a reason why Petterson would not be interested in a rebuild. He’s 24, ask him go through another 4 years of rebuild and he is going to be 28 by then. Can you imagine a pkayer being happy to play on a losing team from age 19-28?

Yeah ideally we shouldn’t have direction be based on his preference but the consequence of that will be him forcing his way out and anyone should be able to understand why.

Like Horvat?

Again, the point is that these players, and their agents, are savvy enough to know what teams need to do in order to get better. If that means getting draft capital, then it is what it is. If that means getting players, fine too. But Pettersson should never be in a position to dictate or decide what is best for the franchise. That's the main point of what Drance is saying.

The franchise has to do what is right for them, first and foremost, and players can be traded. Example they gave is Lebron in Miami. Pat Riley refused to make him bigger than the team. The coach and the culture came first.

 

[arttk]

Like Horvat?

Again, the point is that these players, and their agents, are savvy enough to know what teams need to do in order to get better. If that means getting draft capital, then it is what it is. If that means getting players, fine too. But Pettersson should never be in a position to dictate or decide what is best for the franchise. That's the main point of what Drance is saying.

The franchise has to do what is right for them, first and foremost, and players can be traded. Example they gave is Lebron in Miami. Pat Riley refused to make him bigger than the team. The coach and the culture came first.

No not like Horvat. Horvat apparently seemed fine with it and we know Petey came out and said he's not cool with it.

Agreed that Petey should never been in that position, we never should've bridged him but Benning is a f***ing idiot and now that's where we are.

Sure you can argue the team needs to do what's best for the team but if the objective is to rebuild then you just have to accept Petey will force his way out and then you'll end up with Hughes probably requesting a trade as well.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Like Horvat?

Again, the point is that these players, and their agents, are savvy enough to know what teams need to do in order to get better. If that means getting draft capital, then it is what it is. If that means getting players, fine too. But Pettersson should never be in a position to dictate or decide what is best for the franchise. That's the main point of what Drance is saying.

The franchise has to do what is right for them, first and foremost, and players can be traded. Example they gave is Lebron in Miami. Pat Riley refused to make him bigger than the team. The coach and the culture came first.

I think this bolded part is super obvious to many posters here and not at all to others and it makes the discourse near impossible between the two "camps."