Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[EverTheCynic]

Im blown away.

I've tried to write a reply but I don't even know where to begin... Lets see...

The combination of fan fiction level bullshit followed by "if you don't agree you don't watch or understand hockey." Some serious Dunning–Kruger level shit going on here.

Miller as a center is a black hole defensively. I don't know what the f*** you have watched but even his 99p season he was really bad 5on5 defensively. Then last year he was again crap 5on5 defensively but also stopped scoring and only was able to produce on the PP.

Horvat has got the hard matchups all his time here and he is not great at it (like you said) but he always treaded water. You saw what happened to Miller this year when they tried that with him. He was unplayable. If you remove his name from the back of his jersey he gets sent to the AHL. He got protected 3rd line deployment and EP40 got the matchups. Then Miller did what Horvat did in hard matchups. He just threaded water.

Miller as a winger is a completely different story. He has consistently been a play driver at wing and is very capable filling the far less demanding defensive duties of a winger. Maybe you are mixing the two up in your head?

Oh! And obviously. If you disagree you don't watch or understand hockey!

With all due respect, you calling Bo Horvat a 2 way player discredits every opinion you have on hockey and I will not be replying to you again. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[arttk]

Miller was their PK1 center and the PK was disastrous anyway. How much worse could it get? I think there is a significant chance Chytil would actually be better on the PK.

Bolded is likely true. And would have been the correct course of action. Trade Miller and Horvat and the team has three additional 1sts, a top prospect, a young roster player, and much more cap space to reshape the team.

I am not saying Miller should be pk1, I think the 3C should be PK 1 and our 4C, Miller and Petey should split pk2,3 duties. Hell ideally you would not need Miller and Petey to play PK and they'll pinch in from time to time for spot duties.

I think if you have a team with Bo and Chytil, you just end up with less flexibility. You can argue that with Petey, Miller, 3C and 4C, if the 3C can play hard matchups, you can use 3C and Petey for all the matchups and let Miller go ham on easier competition. Like how do you get 99pt Miller again? You let me rip on crappy competition. You can try to do the same thing with Bo but the problem is Bo won't give you as great as an offensive return as Miller.

I've stated this before, my pref was always to trade both Miller and Bo. Bo to get a top4 guy and Miller to get a 2C. Bo ended up netting us a top4 and maybe a future 3C which is great but I don't see the rumored Miller package as good enough.

 

[racerjoe]

I think the idea would have been to bottom out for a year and take a run at Bedard. Addition by subtraction moreso than the exact pieces coming back.

Move Miller. Move Bo. Move basically anyone not named Petey, Hughes, Demko, Kuz, and eventually Hronek. Tank as hard as we can and take our best shot at Bedard. Probably end up picking top 5 regardless.

Then after a quick 1 year rebuild, we'd be absolutely flush with assets and capital. Chytil, Lundqvist, 1st, Beau, Raty, 1st. Plus our pick likely being top 5.

We would have so much value in the org we could afford to offload some of these atrocious contracts and have assets to spare for additions and trades.

If that Rags deal was real, imo that is what we should have done. No point crying over it now. It's done. Now we just gotta make the best and try to build what we can around our core. Which might be impossible. But we will see what management is made of here. Certainly not an easy job in front of them.

Does Kuz sign if that was our plan?

 

[bossram]

I am not saying Miller should be pk1, I think the 3C should be PK 1 and our 4C, Miller and Petey should split pk2,3 duties. Hell ideally you would not need Miller and Petey to play PK and they'll pinch in from time to time for spot duties.

I think if you have a team with Bo and Chytil, you just end up with less flexibility. You can argue that with Petey, Miller, 3C and 4C, if the 3C can play hard matchups, you can use 3C and Petey for all the matchups and let Miller go ham on easier competition. Like how do you get 99pt Miller again? You let me rip on crappy competition. You can try to do the same thing with Bo but the problem is Bo won't give you as great as an offensive return as Miller.

I've stated this before, my pref was always to trade both Miller and Bo. Bo to get a top4 guy and Miller to get a 2C. Bo ended up netting us a top4 and maybe a future 3C which is great but I don't see the rumored Miller package as good enough.

I think if you're trading those players, doing so to flip them for immediate win-now players is the wrong purpose. That's the disagreement here.

I would have traded Miller and Horvat to take a calculated step back, so that the club has the assets and flexibility to take two step forwards later. The purpose of trading them is to shift the club's peak competitive window a few years down the line, but with hopefully a higher ceiling. If you trade them for win now pieces, you're just shuffling deck chairs.

The club's goal should not have been to try to ice a playoff roster last season. It should have been to replenish their asset base, clear cap space, and get a good draft pick. Well, they tried to compete anyway and failed miserably at it.

Does Kuz sign if that was our plan?

IMO they should've traded Kuz for futures too.

 

[arttk]

I think if you're trading those players, doing so to flip them for immediate win-now players is the wrong purpose. That's the disagreement here.

I would have traded Miller and Horvat to take a calculated step back, so that the club has the assets and flexibility to take two step forwards later. The purpose of trading them is to shift the club's peak competitive window a few years down the line, but with hopefully a higher ceiling. If you trade them for win now pieces, you're just shuffling deck chairs.

The club's goal should not have been to try to ice a playoff roster last season. It should have been to replenish their asset base, clear cap space, and get a good draft pick. Well, they tried to compete anyway and failed miserably at it.


IMO they should've traded Kuz for futures too.

I mean you are now disagreeing with the direction. I think even if you disagree with the direction, there shouldn't be any disagreement about the QUALITY of the return you would get from Miller and Bo. I think the quality of the return for Bo is there so no complaints there. From all the rumors, the quality of Miller's potential return SUCKED. I've explained why I think it sucked and I wouldn't have taken that package because I thought it sucked.

I also don't think the trade value for Kuz is there. Yes he is cheap cap wise but if a team wants to give out 1st rounders at the trade deadline, and a lot of them did, they want established playoff performers like ROR, Tarasenko and etc in return. Even if the plan is to take a step back, you might as well hold onto Kuz for one more year and see if his value can go up more. I mean if you are taking a step back, you are not in a rush anyways.

 

[bossram]

I mean you are now disagreeing with the direction. I think even if you disagree with the direction, there shouldn't be any disagreement about the QUALITY of the return you would get from Miller and Bo. I think the quality of the return for Bo is there so no complaints there. From all the rumors, the quality of Miller's potential return SUCKED. I've explained why I think it sucked and I wouldn't have taken that package because I thought it sucked.

I also don't think the trade value for Kuz is there. Yes he is cheap cap wise but if a team wants to give out 1st rounders at the trade deadline, and a lot of them did, they want established playoff performers like ROR, Tarasenko and etc in return. Even if the plan is to take a step back, you might as well hold onto Kuz for one more year and see if his value can go up more. I mean if you are taking a step back, you are not in a rush anyways.

Yeah, you can think the Miller package sucked. The team sucked with Miller anyway. They're still far from being a contender and Miller's value relative to his contract will only continue to decrease. They should've moved on when it was convenient, but they did not.

Kuz was a very unique asset. I don't know for sure if he would have returned a 1st, but he was the only top-line calibre player every contender could fit without resorting to cap shenanigans. That was the value. With his extension, Kuz no longer has that unique benefit to contenders. Would his value improve? I doubt it. Under Tocchet his production and usage dipped. And it is highly, highly unlikely he would continue to shoot 20+%, so regression should be expected.

 

[Coffee]

With all due respect, you calling Bo Horvat a 2 way player discredits every opinion you have on hockey and I will not be replying to you again. You don't know what you're talking about.

I understand and agree with what you are saying; however, seems a bit harsh to call it quits on PuckMunchkin because you have disagreed on one observation.

I’ve seen both of you guys post, and you do have similar opinions on various subjects regarding the Canucks.

 

[racerjoe]

IMO they should've traded Kuz for futures too.

Again, do we have him if we go the way you suggest? Does he want to sigh here?

 

[bossram]

Again, do we have him if we go the way you suggest? Does he want to sigh here?

Would Kuz stay? Well, it doesn't really matter if I traded him at the deadline.

 

[arttk]

Yeah, you can think the Miller package sucked. The team sucked with Miller anyway. They're still far from being a contender and Miller's value relative to his contract will only continue to decrease. They should've moved on when it was convenient, but they did not.

Kuz was a very unique asset. I don't know for sure if he would have returned a 1st, but he was the only top-line calibre player every contender could fit without resorting to cap shenanigans. That was the value. With his extension, Kuz no longer has that unique benefit to contenders. Would his value improve? I doubt it. Under Tocchet his production and usage dipped. And it is highly, highly unlikely he would continue to shoot 20+%, so regression should be expected.

Well I don't see Miller as the problem, if we can get a 3C that can take on defensive matchups and let Miller just focus on offense then the team would benefit a lot from that. There was a lot of stuff wrong lat season and if you read through what the players said, BB essentially didn't coach. Regarding his value, I could still see him put up PPG for the next 4 season if we just use him in a pure offensive role and on PP1. It's like if he puts up PPG++ in that role, who the f*** gives a shit if he is not a defensive wizard and I imagine that his career would last longer if he played in that type of role.

For Kuz, like i said, we imagine he would have that value to contenders but in reality, we see contenders burning their 1st rounders on established playoff performers and it makes total sense. Why spend your only 1st rounder on a question mark when you can get a known playoff performer? We might have been able to extract a 1st but I feel like that's just the media baseless speculation.

And that potential lost asset, if we were going down the road of rebuilding, we would have a tone of assets by trading Demko, Hughes and Petey. At that point you might as well just holdon to Kuz and give him all the opportunities because everybody else would be traded.

 

[Vector]

The speculated return for Kuzmenko, at the deadline, was a 2nd round pick. Signing Kuzmenko at the contract he did and trading him at a later date, if need be, is smarter asset management to me.

 

[mriswith]

The speculated return for Kuzmenko, at the deadline, was a 2nd round pick. Signing Kuzmenko at the contract he did and trading him at a later date, if need be, is smarter asset management to me.

The 2nd round pick speculation was in January, and prices skyrocketed closer to the deadline.

I lean towards the side that thinks there was an unspoken agreement to not deal him no matter what when he signed with us but I'm certain we'd have gotten at least a 1st for him at the deadline if we went that route.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The 2nd round pick speculation was in January, and prices skyrocketed closer to the deadline.

I lean towards the side that thinks there was an unspoken agreement to not deal him no matter what when he signed with us but I'm certain we'd have gotten at least a 1st for him at the deadline if we went that route.

I don't think it was the price or a potential agreement that prevented a trade. VAN is trying to compete, and they want players over picks.

 

[mriswith]

I don't think it was the price or a potential agreement that prevented a trade. VAN is trying to compete, and they want players over picks.

Sure the 2 year contract fits both our front offices myopic view of our club as a temporarily embarassed contender and Kuz's desire to land a Miller-esque contract when he's about to turn 30, but I'm also not sure that there isn't some sort of unspoken side dealing going on with Milstein.

 

[Breakers]

Vancouver prioritizing players over picks while still being TRASH............... is the same backasswards thinking that got them into this mess of missing the playoffs 8 of the past 9 years

Q: how come we dont have picks?
A: we used them in trades to compete now and to clear cap
---
Q: Compete now? that must mean you guys are pretty good or knocking on the door?
A: Actually no, we suck while still spending to the cap
---
Q: Ohh so you have cap troubles?
A: we do, because we dont have cost controlled assets and picks and we spend in free agency
---
Q: how come you don't have picks:
A: you already asked that, and you're seeing the endless toxic loop we are stuck in

 

[racerjoe]

Would Kuz stay? Well, it doesn't really matter if I traded him at the deadline.

No I am talking about the offseason we signed him... I don't think he signs here if we are trading Miller and Horvat that offseason. Again before we even signed him...

Then yes as @Vector said. It was a freaking 2nd.... you are trading him for a 2nd...

 

[arttk]

Im blown away.

I've tried to write a reply but I don't even know where to begin... Lets see...

The combination of fan fiction level bullshit followed by "if you don't agree you don't watch or understand hockey." Some serious Dunning–Kruger level shit going on here.

Miller as a center is a black hole defensively. I don't know what the f*** you have watched but even his 99p season he was really bad 5on5 defensively. Then last year he was again crap 5on5 defensively but also stopped scoring and only was able to produce on the PP.

Horvat has got the hard matchups all his time here and he is not great at it (like you said) but he always treaded water. You saw what happened to Miller this year when they tried that with him. He was unplayable. If you remove his name from the back of his jersey he gets sent to the AHL. He got protected 3rd line deployment and EP40 got the matchups. Then Miller did what Horvat did in hard matchups. He just threaded water.

Miller as a winger is a completely different story. He has consistently been a play driver at wing and is very capable filling the far less demanding defensive duties of a winger. Maybe you are mixing the two up in your head?

Oh! And obviously. If you disagree you don't watch or understand hockey!

Your opinion on Miller is so exaggerated is not even funny.
It’s like I read what you write and I look at his advance stats and they paint a completely different picture.

Like Bo was bad defensively this year and he was blowing the zone like crazy and abandoning his defensive side to juice his offense, he was still only on pace for 70isg points. The moment he went to NYI and gets inserted into a system that requires defense, his offense dried up. He’s really an slightly above average 2-way player.

Miller as a center put up 99pts and 82 points in the last 2 seasons. The correct strategy is to play him more against lesser competition and let him put up a shit ton of points and get a 3C that can handle hard defensive matchups. It’s easier to find a defensive C than a C that can feast and put up 80+ points. Why is that so hard to understand for you? Do you think PPG players are dime a dozen?

Nevermind the fact that towards the end of the season when a system was in place, he became average defensively. It’s really ignorant to look at BB’s no system system and Miller’s struggle within it to conclude Miller cannot play defense in any situation in all circumstance.

 

[bossram]

No I am talking about the offseason we signed him... I don't think he signs here if we are trading Miller and Horvat that offseason. Again before we even signed him...

Then yes as @Vector said. It was a freaking 2nd.... you are trading him for a 2nd...

1. Would he sign? No one knows. Promise he gets to play with Petey, probably?

2. It's not like the Canucks shopped him anyway, so no one knows what the trade return would be. If they wanted to execute a retool, they would have looked into it seriously.

 

[arttk]

2. It's not like the Canucks shopped him anyway, so no one knows what the trade return would be. If they wanted to execute a retool, they would have looked into it seriously.

wouldn’t say that, all the reports since like Jan was every player other than Petey and Hughes had a price.

Plus 90% of the trades that do happen don’t leak so don’t let the lack of leaked info be mistaken as lack of dialog.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

With all due respect, you calling Bo Horvat a 2 way player discredits every opinion you have on hockey and I will not be replying to you again. You don't know what you're talking about.

That's cool.

I feel the similar with your take, except I was willing to give you a chance.

Let our ways part from here on out.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

No I am talking about the offseason we signed him... I don't think he signs here if we are trading Miller and Horvat that offseason. Again before we even signed him...

Then yes as @Vector said. It was a freaking 2nd.... you are trading him for a 2nd...

Its probably a 1st actually.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Your opinion on Miller is so exaggerated is not even funny.
It’s like I read what you write and I look at his advance stats and they paint a completely different picture.

Oh come on. Maybe its just a little bit funny? Like a small giggle at least?

Like Bo was bad defensively this year and he was blowing the zone like crazy and abandoning his defensive side to juice his offense, he was still only on pace for 70isg points. The moment he went to NYI and gets inserted into a system that requires defense, his offense dried up. He’s really an slightly above average 2-way player.

Miller as a center put up 99pts and 82 points in the last 2 seasons. The correct strategy is to play him more against lesser competition and let him put up a shit ton of points and get a 3C that can handle hard defensive matchups. It’s easier to find a defensive C than a C that can feast and put up 80+ points. Why is that so hard to understand for you? Do you think PPG players are dime a dozen?

5on5 production.
Miller had the same number of EV points as... Matt Duchene, Yanni Gourde and Devon Toews and oh Bo Horvat. Obviously leaking goals against while doing that.

Nevermind the fact that towards the end of the season when a system was in place, he became average defensively. It’s really ignorant to look at BB’s no system system and Miller’s struggle within it to conclude Miller cannot play defense in any situation in all circumstance.

This is a fair point.

We saw Horvat produce really strong defensive results in NYI system. He was also producing until Barzal went down.

But yeah. Maybe Miller who has not been a center until last season, and has at no point been even average defensively as a center, could have done much better in a more strict defensive environment. I'll give you that.

 

[arttk]

5on5 production.
Miller had the same number of EV points as... Matt Duchene, Yanni Gourde and Devon Toews and oh Bo Horvat. Obviously leaking goals against while doing that.


This is a fair point.

We saw Horvat produce really strong defensive results in NYI system. He was also producing until Barzal went down.

But yeah. Maybe Miller who has not been a center until last season, and has at no point been even average defensively as a center, could have done much better in a more strict defensive environment. I'll give you that.

Well Miller has been very consistent PP producer since he joined us. He’s been on a 30-40 PP point pace in the last 4 seasons. I don’t really see him being elite on the PP as a bad thing. If anything the difference between this year and last year is his ES production has dropped. It seems like the drop in ES happens when BB was coaching and the production went back up after Tocchet was hired.

So with Tocchet, his defensive metrics went back up, point production went back up. Like I said, if he’s average or below average defensively, then get a defensive center and give Miller the soft minutes and let him rack up a ton of points. If he is winning those matchups and puts up like 55ish ES points, then who the f*** cares if he’s below average defensively, he will be a net plus plus. If Miller can put up PPG and play above average defense then that’s like a 9+M player. Hell with Larkin’s new contract, PPG centers are worth 8.7M +.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Well Miller has been very consistent PP producer since he joined us. He’s been on a 30-40 PP point pace in the last 4 seasons. I don’t really see him being elite on the PP as a bad thing. If anything the difference between this year and last year is his ES production has dropped. It seems like the drop in ES happens when BB was coaching and the production went back up after Tocchet was hired.

I think you are misunderstanding my point about his PP production if you think I am using it against him somehow. All I am saying is he is good on the PP and that is where most of his value comes from BUT he is also in one of the best spots in the NHL to pick up points on the PP. This inflates his PP production.

So with Tocchet, his defensive metrics went back up, point production went back up. Like I said, if he’s average or below average defensively, then get a defensive center and give Miller the soft minutes and let him rack up a ton of points. If he is winning those matchups and puts up like 55ish ES points, then who the f*** cares if he’s below average defensively, he will be a net plus plus. If Miller can put up PPG and play above average defense then that’s like a 9+M player. Hell with Larkin’s new contract, PPG centers are worth 8.7M +.

I would counter that his defensive results went up much more than his play did. He didn't have the disconnected controller moments that were so egregious early on but still he is who he is.



The initial disagreement was about who we should have kept, Horvat or Miller.

Im 100% sure we wont agree what sort of deal the management could have reached for Horvat this summer. Before his white hot start to the year I would argue ~7 mil per would have got it done but I am just going to presume we disagree on this...?

But would you at least agree that keeping Horvat at around 7mil per over Miller at 8mil per would have made more sense with where our team is currently at? Because of their age difference.

 

[strattonius]

But would you at least agree that keeping Horvat at around 7mil per over Miller at 8mil per would have made more sense with where our team is currently at? Because of their age difference.

Horvat aint 7M. Strange way to try and convince someone you're right.
Horvat 8.5M 65 pt goal scorer.
Miller 8.0M point per game power forward.

Miller is 12th in NHL scoring the last 4 years. That puts him in a tier of players including Zibanejad, Connor, Rantanen. All these players are powerplay producers.

Miller is far and away a better player than Horvat.