Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

[Aphid Attraction]

I thought the cap might go up until all of the Bankruptcy's and companies dropping broadcasting rights. I can't really se it anymore.

The collective bargaining agreement is up after the 25- 26 season.

I am by no means qualified to speak on it but imo.

With inflation being what it is, if the cap doesn’t go up significantly by then. The players would probably be asking for a bigger percentage.

I would have thought that alone would be reason to give an increase in cap, assuming there is creative accounting going on.

Also with media deals falling through it brings opportunity to get new deals so its not always bad.

But its so complicated with so much stuff we are not privy too.

I do make the assumption that by the time the CBA is up the cap would have made a jump or two.

 

[racerjoe]

Sure I agree with that.

I think it's fine to criticize bad moves that he's made, like the Chiarot contract is bad, Cossa over Wallstedt is trending poorly, etc. It just doesn't make sense to call Yzerman's rebuild a failure when most of his picks are still teenagers and they aren't done drafting inside the top 10 yet.

Moving your team from bottom 5 to 16th is easy, the natural entropy of the league will make that happen even if the GM does literally nothing at all. All of the skill of being a GM is moving your team from 16th to top 5 and a huge part of that is not screwing up the process of moving from bottom 5 to 16th by being impatient.

I don't think that is a fair way to judge when a team should be good. the Sabres picked inside the top 10 for 10 years and we all have called their rebuild a fail at different points.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Sure I agree with that.

I think it's fine to criticize bad moves that he's made, like the Chiarot contract is bad, Cossa over Wallstedt is trending poorly, etc. It just doesn't make sense to call Yzerman's rebuild a failure when most of his picks are still teenagers and they aren't done drafting inside the top 10 yet.

Moving your team from bottom 5 to 16th is easy, the natural entropy of the league will make that happen even if the GM does literally nothing at all. All of the skill of being a GM is moving your team from 16th to top 5 and a huge part of that is not screwing up the process of moving from bottom 5 to 16th by being impatient.

I think thats a moderate opinion that is shared by some of the people who are supporting current management moves. (I say that only to show both opinions might not be that far apart)

And when people see criticism of the latest moves, the modern type of discourse is to shit on whatever they can to make the other side seem wrong. (Things being black and white one side is wrong one side is right is part of modern identity viewpoints)

So your original question is why does the Detroit rebuild get called a failure. That is my answer to that question.

 

[mriswith]

I think thats a moderate opinion that is shared by some of the people who are supporting current management moves. (I say that only to show both opinions might not be that far apart)

And when people see criticism of the latest moves, the modern type of discourse is to shit on whatever they can to make the other side seem wrong. (Things being black and white one side is wrong one side is right is part of modern identity viewpoints)

So your original question is why does the Detroit rebuild get called a failure. That is my answer to that question.

If you zoom out far enough there's overlap in everything.

Most critics aren't saying that our management has already failed. They're saying that our management has selected too short of a timeline to accomplish the large volume of very difficult things they know they need to accomplish if the goal is a cup.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

If you zoom out far enough there's overlap in everything.

Most critics aren't saying that our management has already failed. They're saying that our management has selected too short of a timeline to accomplish the large volume of very difficult things they know they need to accomplish if the goal is a cup.

What is the timeline the Canucks management has selected to accomplish to accomplish a competitive cup run?

 

[mriswith]

What is the timeline the Canucks management has selected to accomplish to accomplish a competitive cup run?

2-4 years.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Is that a guess by you, or something they have said?

No matter really the question then becomes is it reasonable for them to try and build a competitive cup run by then?

I don’t like seeing using the words contender or dynasty because they are terms that are subjective, I feel any team that has a shot at conference final is a contender myself. And then windows are all different in length.

But the Avs won a cup 4 seasons after McKinnons breakout season.

So only taking into account timelines , 4 years is not a bad proposition to me for the Canucks to be right in the mix of competitive around conference final level.

Now alot of work needs to be done to get there but as far as time, a whole ton can be done in 4 seasons.

And its no different then saying we should be patient with the redwings rebuild.

 

[Javaman]

this would be a more pleasant place if posters weren't so invested in never being wrong. it's okay to have bad takes as long as you're open to admitting so once they're proven bad

i thought pettersson was too mercurial and detached to ever be an elite nhl player. i appear to have been wrong about that. mea culpa

I feel bad for those who've been wrong before on the Internet.

I've never been wrong before, so it's a bit hard for me to empathize. But I still feel for those of you that have been wrong before.

 

[andora]

Is that a guess by you, or something they have said?

No matter really the question then becomes is it reasonable for them to try and build a competitive cup run by then?

I don’t like seeing using the words contender or dynasty because they are terms that are subjective, I feel any team that has a shot at conference final is a contender myself. And then windows are all different in length.

But the Avs won a cup 4 seasons after McKinnons breakout season.

So only taking into account timelines , 4 years is not a bad proposition to me for the Canucks to be right in the mix of competitive around conference final level.

Now alot of work needs to be done to get there but as far as time, a whole ton can be done in 4 seasons.

And its no different then saying we should be patient with the redwings rebuild.

I remember something along the lines of 2 years to make moves to set them up to be a cup Contender but no guarantees as luck is involved

 

[mriswith]

Is that a guess by you, or something they have said?

No matter really the question then becomes is it reasonable for them to try and build a competitive cup run by then?

I don’t like seeing using the words contender or dynasty because they are terms that are subjective, I feel any team that has a shot at conference final is a contender myself. And then windows are all different in length.

But the Avs won a cup 4 seasons after McKinnons breakout season.

So only taking into account timelines , 4 years is not a bad proposition to me for the Canucks to be right in the mix of competitive around conference final level.

Now alot of work needs to be done to get there but as far as time, a whole ton can be done in 4 seasons.

And its no different then saying we should be patient with the redwings rebuild.

It's my interpretation of our roster, our signings and moves, and how the contract situations of our key players are going to play out.

2-4 years marks the end of our competitive window, not a start to being in the mix as a contender. We're built to have to win right now.

 

[mossey3535]

For me just eye, but if I am not mistaken their stats have been much better too, but I think @mossey3535 can speak more to this.

Woodley was on last week and gave some stats from Clearsight analytics (you have to pay for these and most of the NHL teams use them instead of publicly trawled data). Basically they've gone from the bottom of the league to either the middle or close to the top ten in basically every meaningful defensive stat. And that's before this continued run.

Issue is in their runs previously they were still giving up lots of HD chances and they would have absolutely catastrophic breakdowns. They pass the eye test for me. When was the last time a Canucks d-pair held a blueline and maintained their gaps? We haven't clogged a neutral zone since AV. Ok maybe Torts but you get it.

Yeah they are getting outshot against the better teams which is not ideal but Demko has had maybe 1-2 difficult stops per game even if there's 30 total shots. Honestly he hasn't had to play to a high level since his first game back against DAL.

I understand the angst in the community but to me this a fundamental change in the way they play. Before it was more that the players started to give a shit and put more effort in...but they were putting effort into an unsustainable system.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

It's my interpretation of our roster, our signings and moves, and how the contract situations of our key players are going to play out.

2-4 years marks the end of our competitive window, not a start to being in the mix as a contender. We're built to have to win right now.

I Disagree, year 4 will not be the end of our competitive window imo.

 

[Javaman]

I Disagree, year 4 will not be the end of our competitive window imo.

I think that depends on which players the Canucks still have under contract at that point,

 

[RandV]

And why isthere a big uptick in the cap coming.. I know that report came out about them looking to increase it but I could even see if they increase it a decent bump this year and or next year as well that the penalty for that could be flat again.

Calling it the only realistic option is pigeonholing yourself because it is literally tied to potentially half a dozen other things happening or not happening.

On the plus side, I think the idea is that because of all the covid stuff a freeze was put in place to balance the escrow out. The cap is going to go up because that's been equalled out so they can unfreeze it. But on the negative side, now all this TV stuff is dropping hurting the bottom line so they may not be able to raise it or at least only minimally.

I don't think anyone's going to have a good idea here what will actually happen till the numbers are out. Or at least the final financial's are in at the end of the season.

 

[CanucksMJL]

AFAIK the NHL still heavily relies on ticket sales for revenue. I haven't seen much talk about a potential decrease in attendance as people find their recreational income is being used up by pesky things like food and housing.

 

[FlowMaster]

Hronek
Rienbacher
Livingstone

Is a pretty good right side, all under 26 years old.

Then Hughes
Gavrikov (?)
Wolanin

On left.

That’s a competent d core.

 

[andora]

Why does the timeline reset?

Nothing Holland did impacted the Yzerman rebuild negatively. He didn't hand Yzerman bad contract or no cap space. What he did hand Yzerman was one of the better prospect pools in the NHL at the time after having 18 picks in the first 3 rounds of the 2017-19 drafts.

Holland did an absolutely textbook teardown/pick accumulation of the exact type that fans love and exactly what Chicago is doing now. Yzerman inherited a job half done, not some sort of problem situation that required a reset.

If Chicago or Montreal fire their GM tomorrow, it doesn't mean that their rebuilds are somehow 'reset' and that the new guy doesn't have a 2-year head start on the process because of what had already been done.

I personally view it as a reset they had to decide what to do with all of it, determine if what they had was good enough to start adding to or if it wasnt good enough start doing theie own thing

I think the fact that what holland left them didnt end up being very good counts as well.

"This takes time, and this organization has been through it before," Yzerman said. "I can't give you a specific timeline, but we are going to this in the way that I believe will get us to where we need to be.

"I think there's a good foundation in place in players like

Dylan Larkin, [forward] Anthony Mantha,

Andreas Athanasiou, [forward] Tyler Bertuzzi and [defenseman] Filip Hronek. You need players like that to build the core you need to reach the higher levels. Kenny has also accumulated a lot of draft picks, and it will be imperative that we draft well, but we already have some promising prospects in players like [forward Filip] Zadina, [center Michael] Rasmussen, [defenseman Jared] McIsaac and [center Joseph] Veleno. We also have an excellent young coach in Jeff Blashill."

It wasnt as harsh as i remembered it being but he certainly didnt say this young group is worth starting to turn the corner with, or can start adding to. I believe him and his team felt they didnt get left with anything special outside larkin.

He ended up trading mantha and athanasiou within a year which i think says they knew those players were not good enough.

i dont think he inherited a job that was half done - as done would symbolize a good team turning the corner - they werent that..

i understand what you are saying with the examples of chicago and montreal, but i do think it would take into account what the new guy says he is going to do and how they evaluate what they inherited. I think maybe i am blending here but it is reasonable to judge the gm on what he does with what he inherited and if he determines what he got was good enough or not (and be correct) and to keep or move off of (and be correct) players that were in the plans of the previous gms.

I just think its how i view it thats all.. i just dont look at yzerman (and how he has communicated this) and think he is years behind.. the franchise maybe

On the plus side, I think the idea is that because of all the covid stuff a freeze was put in place to balance the escrow out. The cap is going to go up because that's been equalled out so they can unfreeze it. But on the negative side, now all this TV stuff is dropping hurting the bottom line so they may not be able to raise it or at least only minimally.

I don't think anyone's going to have a good idea here what will actually happen till the numbers are out. Or at least the final financial's are in at the end of the season.

But i dont think they have said anything about it being even - the hope was that it would be earlier than projected​

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Detroit is doing what all Detroit Pro-Sports franchises appear to do, go for the repetitive rebuild while mostly occupying the mushy middle of each round of the draft.

As a result of fairly questionable drafting ability, their process reboots every few years.

The Canucks are currently in a better position, with better young core pieces but also occupy the mushy middle of each round of the draft. So unless their scouting improves, they will just occupy the mushy middle until Demko, Pettersson, Hughes, Hronek etc., just fade to black.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Very cool summary of what the Canucks are playing for the rest of the way from The Athletic:

 

[Peen]

christian wolanin

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Very cool summary of what the Canucks are playing for the rest of the way from The Athletic:

View attachment 670799

Then I guess we should have just kept Bruce on till the end of the year...shut Demko down, and death marched to the finish line..?

 

[mriswith]

Then I guess we should have just kept Bruce on till the end of the year...shut Demko down, and death marched to the finish line..?

Can't shut down Demko against his will but otherwise sounds good to me.

Boudreau had the perfect tank going. Couldn't figure out how to win a game but the team was scoring lots of goals and the players loved him despite the losing. You can't tank any better than that.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Then I guess we should have just kept Bruce on till the end of the year...shut Demko down, and death marched to the finish line..?

Don't you dare threaten me with a good time!!

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Can't shut down Demko against his will but otherwise sounds good to me.

Boudreau had the perfect tank going. Couldn't figure out how to win a game but the team was scoring lots of goals and the players loved him despite the losing. You can't tank any better than that.

Yup..I was on team tank, but its just utterly futile getting your hopes up...or complaining about winning too much...

The best we can hope for is that the core players feel reinvigorated under Tocchet, and are pumped to go into next season.

 

[Hit the post]

Don't you dare threaten me with a good time!!

Yes Luther: