Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

[valkynax]

She is! And also understanding after she heard of Benning's atrocities.

If that's not a good wife I don't know what a good wife is.

 

[andora]

She is! And also understanding after she heard of Benning's atrocities.

She sounds like a darling

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

The problem for NYI is that most of those numbers are horvat in a contract year playing for a lottery ticket. JT numbers are after he is guaranteed his lottery ticket. Massive difference. Contract year vs first year after contract year. It’s like comparing an apple to an orange

Not to mention, despite how bad we've been all season, we're surprisingly a high offensive team currently sitting at 11th. Contrast that to the Islanders who are 23rd. Bo isn't going to get nearly the chances to score that he did here.

 

[Steamer]

Generally, the top 5 or so, step right into the league....What other route would you have taken to acquire a top 4 RHD..?...and what is the value of 25 year old top 4 RHD..?

Generally. Exactly. But those in the know say this draft is so deep that beyond the usual top 3-5, many may play next year and if not, the year after. It was a bad trade. They gave up 20th overall for Miller, but even if the Islanders remain better they would still likely pick no worse than 18th and would have gotten a player who would play within two years at the outset and they gave up a second as well. Jack Gordon and Bennings hands are all over this trade. If he turns out to be really good great, but didn't they have the chance to draft a RHD in the first Rd last year but took a soft perimeter winger instead?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Generally. Exactly. But those in the know say this draft is so deep that beyond the usual top 3-5, many may play next year and if not, the year after. It was a bad trade. They gave up 20th overall for Miller, but even if the Islanders remain better they would still likely pick no worse than 18th and would have gotten a player who would play within two years at the outset and they gave up a second as well. Jack Gordon and Bennings hands are all over this trade. If he turns out to be really good great, but didn't they have the chance to draft a RHD in the first Rd last year but took a soft perimeter winger instead?

Sure , some guys in the top 10 make the team, but do they make a legitimate impact on the team in their first year..?..not really.

I'd say its little too early to be calling the Hronek trade bad...We know precisely what we have..A 25 year old top 4 RHD.... The price tag the Canucks paid is about right (one could make a fair case that the 2nd was an overpayment)....That NYI pick could be anything from an elite player to an utter bust...The top of the draft is littered with underachieving players (relative to where they were drafted).

When you think about it..That was some good wheeling and dealing by Allvin..He could have likely gotten better roster players than Beauvillier and Raty, trading with a contender. (like Boston).but he would have received a late 1st...Leveraging the mid 1st from NYI, he managed to turn that around, and get precisely the player the Canucks wanted/ desperately needed.

 

[RandV]

The post is there for you to read and you still can't garner any other meaning from it? At all?

Ok. So the "the team is not doing good because of Boudreau but mostly in spite of Benning and Green" isn't an excuse after the fact?

Where were these sentiments from the retool apologists when Boudreau had the team on a heater? I sure didnt see any.

Warping narratives to fit an argument is certainly a debating strategy. Not something I have a lot of time for, though.

What debate? The reality of the situation is the management team is attempting to retool. This is what pretty much any actual NHL management team would do in the Canucks situation, with a potential young/prime top 10 C/D/G already in place, regardless of ownership.

What happens on here is just meaningless fan bickering. From my perspective a lot of people don't really have a 'side', but if they aren't aggressively pro-rebuild some people like yourself create an us vs them mentality out of it. Also I should point out that conveniently with the 'rebuild' side you're arguing from the safety of something that's not going to actually happen so has no risk of being wrong.

 

[credulous]

What happens on here is just meaningless fan bickering. From my perspective a lot of people don't really have a 'side', but if they aren't aggressively pro-rebuild some people like yourself create an us vs them mentality out of it. Also I should point out that conveniently with the 'rebuild' side you're arguing from the safety of something that's not going to actually happen so has no risk of being wrong.

i'm biased because i'm pro-rebuild but i think the real problem is people trying to shut down/shout down debate and criticism. it happens on both sides but the pro-management side wield 'it's a retool' like a hammer

we should welcome all viewpoints as long as they provide constructive commentary. there's zero point in this forum if it's all just finger-in-ears white noise

 

[Diogenes92]

What debate? The reality of the situation is the management team is attempting to retool. This is what pretty much any actual NHL management team would do in the Canucks situation, with a potential young/prime top 10 C/D/G already in place, regardless of ownership.

What happens on here is just meaningless fan bickering. From my perspective a lot of people don't really have a 'side', but if they aren't aggressively pro-rebuild some people like yourself create an us vs them mentality out of it. Also I should point out that conveniently with the 'rebuild' side you're arguing from the safety of something that's not going to actually happen so has no risk of being wrong.

I'm from the side that has been calling for a rebuild for 8+ years.

"Attempting to retool" for a decade. New management, same team. Its like the retool crowd thinks there's been a complete reset now that Benning was fired. Its still the same group of players. Same philosophy.

Rebuilding isnt some new fad that I've suddenly decided to jump on board with. And believe me, I take no pleasure in thinking the team needs a rebuild.

Keeping Petey and Hughes and blowing everything else up would, imo, be the best path forward. But it wont happen. Doesn't mean I can't call for it and argue for it.

If I had that defeatest mentality, there wouldn't be a point in voicing my concerns about anything at all. Its weak.

 

[racerjoe]

i'm biased because i'm pro-rebuild but i think the real problem is people trying to shut down/shout down debate and criticism. it happens on both sides but the pro-management side wield 'it's a retool' like a hammer

we should welcome all viewpoints as long as they provide constructive commentary. there's zero point in this forum if it's all just finger-in-ears white noise

I agree with a lot of what you say, but the conversation should still be based in reality. As an example if I said the Canucks should just trade for McDavid, that shouldn't hold a lot of weight. It would be a viewpoint not based in any reality.

Constructive debate is great.

 

[Jyrki21]

This fan griping over winning games late in the season when not in a playoff position is just something I'll never understand.

Well, the league structure 100% incentivizes it. Especially in a "Cup or bust" league/culture (no Champions League, no pro/reg, fans bizarrely scornful of regular season success and achievements), given the draft incentives, there is just absolutely nothing to be gained by winning NHL games more often than not for the lower half of the league. The "mushy middle" is somehow considerably worse than being dreadful because the draft so directly rewards failure, and with only a one-season memory to boot. This should be recognized for the travesty it is, but you still have fans who get mad at the idea of a draft lottery.

The draft lottery doesn't randomize things nearly enough, frankly. It is still way better to lose than to win once playoffs even begin to be out of reach. I wish draft order were based on cumulative record over 3 seasons at least, and if not, then much closer to truly random than how it is now – which is focused only on the top couple picks and heavily weighted. I wish I had no reason to want the team I cheer for to lose, but the league has set it up so that I have every reason to as often as not.

 

[Hansen]

I think the other thing too is that we are suffering from years of a flat cap wherein the value of contracts keeps rising and the only way to get wiggle room is to launder it through the Arizona Coyotes.

It is simply not viable to improve the team in a significant way through free agency right now. Bottom six depth players who you are able to sieve from the rough at a discount is the best you can hope for

 

[Diogenes92]

Are there actually people in here saying its a waste of time to argue for a rebuild and pointless to argue against a retool?

It's mind-boggling. Asanine. Embarassing.

Okay, rebuild crowd. Let's just roll over a play dead for the next 2 or 3 years and not.voice our concerns and frustrations because the retool crowd is clearly sick of it and doesn't want to read it.

Let's be good, submissive little fans and throw away our keyboards.

 

[mathonwy]

My main point throughout the thread was that late season success means nothing for this team. Not only because of coaching changes.

I listed multiple other reasons in previous posts. Some examples are that the playoff pressure is off so its easier to play loose, role players are playing for jobs next year so they play hard for different reasons other than playoffs, etc.

Yup.

Wins and losses don’t mean jack shit right now and everyone’s all loosey goosey and saying the right shit and back checking.

I’m not complaining. The hockey is entertaining so whatevs. But I’m also not fooled. Miller outright quit on this team at the start of the season and I still have no idea why.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Are there actually people in here saying its a waste of time to argue for a rebuild and pointless to argue against a retool?

It's mind-boggling. Asanine. Embarassing.

Okay, rebuild crowd. Let's just roll over a play dead for the next 2 or 3 years and not.voice our concerns and frustrations because the retool crowd is clearly sick of it and doesn't want to read it.

Let's be good, submissive little fans and throw away our keyboards.

Rebuild handmaids.

 

[Hoglander]

Are there actually people in here saying its a waste of time to argue for a rebuild and pointless to argue against a retool?

It's mind-boggling. Asanine. Embarassing.

Okay, rebuild crowd. Let's just roll over a play dead for the next 2 or 3 years and not.voice our concerns and frustrations because the retool crowd is clearly sick of it and doesn't want to read it.

Let's be good, submissive little fans and throw away our keyboards.

Management has literally said a rebuild isn't happening, full stop.

So what are your options then? You only have 2: live in denial as though arguing for a rebuild will actually accomplish anything, or you can accept reality for what it is, and move on.

Maybe the rebuild crowd is right, and tearing it down is the only way this franchise will eventually win a cup. However, a rebuild isn't happening anytime soon, so what is the point of arguing for something that won't happen, and that you can't do jack squat about?

The problem is that arguing for a rebuild IS pointless - under the circumstances of management fully denying the possibility of one happening. There should be a specific thread for the rebuild crowd to discuss/argue it, but instead, that pointless arguement is dragged into virtually every thread.

Example: I'd like to read about Hronek in the Hronek player discussion thread, not about how acquiring a player is dumb because management isn't tearing things down.

 

[tradervik]

I’m not complaining. The hockey is entertaining so whatevs. But I’m also not fooled. Miller outright quit on this team at the start of the season and I still have no idea why.

He needed to get his mind right.

 

[Lindgren]

Management has literally said a rebuild isn't happening, full stop.

So what are your options then? You only have 2: live in denial as though arguing for a rebuild will actually accomplish anything, or you can accept reality for what it is, and move on.

Maybe the rebuild crowd is right, and tearing it down is the only way this franchise will eventually win a cup. However, a rebuild isn't happening anytime soon, so what is the point of arguing for something that won't happen, and that you can't do jack squat about?

The problem is that arguing for a rebuild IS pointless - under the circumstances of management fully denying the possibility of one happening. There should be a specific thread for the rebuild crowd to discuss/argue it, but instead, that pointless arguement is dragged into virtually every thread.

Example: I'd like to read about Hronek in the Hronek player discussion thread, not about how acquiring a player is dumb because management isn't tearing things down.

What's said here doesn't "accomplish anything" with respect to what the team does. Most understand that.

If the team makes a move that's bad for the retool, you're allowed to say so, even though that doesn't accomplish anything. If you think that the overall direction of management is mistaken, you're allowed to say that too, repeatedly, as many did during the Benning era and many will continue to do when current management shows similar short-sightedness.

People aren't going to stop criticizing just because it isn't what you like to read, nor should they.

 

[Gurn]

The reality is:
Everyone has an opinion, and this forum is here for people to express theirs.

 

[Diogenes92]

Management has literally said a rebuild isn't happening, full stop.

So what are your options then? You only have 2: live in denial as though arguing for a rebuild will actually accomplish anything, or you can accept reality for what it is, and move on.

Maybe the rebuild crowd is right, and tearing it down is the only way this franchise will eventually win a cup. However, a rebuild isn't happening anytime soon, so what is the point of arguing for something that won't happen, and that you can't do jack squat about?

The problem is that arguing for a rebuild IS pointless - under the circumstances of management fully denying the possibility of one happening. There should be a specific thread for the rebuild crowd to discuss/argue it, but instead, that pointless arguement is dragged into virtually every thread.

Example: I'd like to read about Hronek in the Hronek player discussion thread, not about how acquiring a player is dumb because management isn't tearing things down.

If you only knew how pathetic this argument is...

"Management said no to a rebuild. Its pointless to talk about. So stop it."

So much for free speech.

Fans who want a rebuild can voice their concerns at games (if they already paid for tickets) or refuse to buy tickets, refuse to buy merch, continue to make their displeasure known in media. Make so much noise that its impossible to ignore.

If the 'retoolies' were hoping for the rebuild crowd to just tuck tail and cower away into the night, you're going to be disappointed.

The Hronek trade was brutal for the long-term success of the team. This is a crazy deep draft. Fans are allowed to be mad about that.

Good trade for the short term, maybe. I'd like to see how he actually fits in first before declaring it an outright win.

The first 25-30 games of next season will be very important for the team. If they can finally come out prepared to play at the beginning of the year, they might actually give themselves a fighting chance.

But until that happens, I will continue to make noise.

 

[Hoglander]

What's said here doesn't "accomplish anything" with respect to what the team does. Most understand that.

If the team makes a move that's bad for the retool, you're allowed to say so, even though that doesn't accomplish anything. If you think that the overall direction of management is mistaken, you're allowed to say that too, repeatedly, as many did during the Benning era and many will continue to do when current management shows similar short-sightedness.

People aren't going to stop criticizing just because it isn't what you like to read, nor should they.

Thinking it's a bad move for the retool, is one thing - like thinking that Hronek for example, doesn't bring the right skillset for what the team needs - but complaining about how management should be doing a teardown rebuild in the Hronek player discussion thread... it just comes off as unhinged venting. Like complaining for the sake of complaining.

People aren't going to stop criticizing the rebuild complainers for hijacking every single thread, nor should they.

 

[Lindgren]

Thinking it's a bad move for the retool, is one thing - like thinking that Hronek for example, doesn't bring the right skillset for what the team needs - but complaining about how management should be doing a teardown rebuild in the Hronek player discussion thread... it just comes off as unhinged venting. Like complaining for the sake of complaining.

People aren't going to stop criticizing the rebuild complainers for hijacking every single thread, nor should they.

If your opinion is that the Hronek acquisition is a bad long-term move, you've got a right to express that opinion. The claim was that expressing the opinion is pointless because it doesn't accomplish anything. A criticism of the retool also doesn't accomplish anything.

The idea that criticizing the Hronek trade for being shortsighted is "complaining for the sake of complaining" in some way that's different from any other management critique is ludicrous.

 

[Hoglander]

If you only knew how pathetic this argument is...

"Management said no to a rebuild. Its pointless to talk about. So stop it."

So much for free speech.

Fans who want a rebuild can voice their concerns at games (if they already paid for tickets) or refuse to buy tickets, refuse to buy merch, continue to make their displeasure known in media. Make so much noise that its impossible to ignore.

If the 'retoolies' were hoping for the rebuild crowd to just tuck tail and cower away into the night, you're going to be disappointed.

The Hronek trade was brutal for the long-term success of the team. This is a crazy deep draft. Fans are allowed to be mad about that.

Good trade for the short term, maybe. I'd like to see how he actually fits in first before declaring it an outright win.

The first 25-30 games of next season will be very important for the team. If they can finally come out prepared to play at the beginning of the year, they might actually give themselves a fighting chance.

But until that happens, I will continue to make noise.

What's pathetic, is when people can't control their emotions and then vent in every thread about the same damn thing over and over. It isn't about stifling free speech, lol. It's about wanting to read duscussion on the topic at hand, not having the rebuild agenda crammed down our throats in every single thread.

 

[andora]

If you only knew how pathetic this argument is...

"Management said no to a rebuild. Its pointless to talk about. So stop it."

So much for free speech.

Fans who want a rebuild can voice their concerns at games (if they already paid for tickets) or refuse to buy tickets, refuse to buy merch, continue to make their displeasure known in media. Make so much noise that its impossible to ignore.

If the 'retoolies' were hoping for the rebuild crowd to just tuck tail and cower away into the night, you're going to be disappointed.

The Hronek trade was brutal for the long-term success of the team. This is a crazy deep draft. Fans are allowed to be mad about that.

Good trade for the short term, maybe. I'd like to see how he actually fits in first before declaring it an outright win.

The first 25-30 games of next season will be very important for the team. If they can finally come out prepared to play at the beginning of the year, they might actually give themselves a fighting chance.

But until that happens, I will continue to make noise.

But this isnt what he said - He didnt say - so stop it.

And actually brought up a good idea about a thread dedicated to discussing a rebuild

 

[Hoglander]

If your opinion is that the Hronek acquisition is a bad long-term move, you've got a right to express that opinion. The claim was that expressing the opinion is pointless because it doesn't accomplish anything. A criticism of the retool also doesn't accomplish anything.

The idea that criticizing the Hronek trade for being shortsighted is "complaining for the sake of complaining" in some way that's different from any other management critique is ludicrous.

I think your missing the point. It's not about having the right to discuss it.

Like, complain about it the management or trade thread, thats fine, but it doesn't belong in the player discussion thread too. Otherwise we may as well have only one thread on these boards, because it's the same discussion over and over. lol

 

[Lindgren]

What's pathetic, is when people can't control their emotions and then vent in every thread about the same damn thing over and over. It isn't about stifling free speech, lol. It's about wanting to read duscussion on the topic at hand, not having the rebuild agenda crammed down our throats in every single thread.

I read over the most recent pages in the Hronek thread. I couldn't find a single post that makes the argument that the Hronek trade was a bad long term move. So much for the thread being hijacked or the rebuild "agenda" being stuffed down anyone's throat.