Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

[rea]

I understand what you're saying. I won't speak for others, I'll speak for myself. Im not judging this based on the player, again I'm judging this based on the situation and timing. It makes zero sense to acquire this player at this time w the inflated values because teams that are actually in the hunt or gearing up for a playoff run, pay premiums for players. The Canucks are not in a position to keep leaking assets that are of great value anytime, which are draft picks. And in this case it just so happens to be in a year where its being called the deepest since 03. Now I'm not judging hronek cuz in a bubble, he's a good nuff d. But to pay that now when the assets u give are far higher than at damn near any other time of the year and u chose now. 2nd, if it makes us a better team, it just leads to a handful more wins that lower our own pick. Do u think the players, after a whole year of getting shit kicked, will look at this yr and think success because they won 4 more games at the end? It's just backwards logic.

You should probably watch Hronek play before you burn the city down.

I'm clueless for having patience and wanting to see the big picture? You can't grade this deal until we know what type of roster is heading into next year.

Being a bottom dweller for a decade is a moot point. These things already happened - it's a sunk cost.

You have to look forward and see what's the best moves for this organization.

We don't know yet for this trade... and probably won't be able to properly grade this deal for another 4-5 years.

But yeah... I'm clueless for wanting to give the player a shot before I burn the city down. Yup

 

[Jack Burton]

Too bad so sad eh.

I actually don’t like the retooling or the direction this franchise is taking.

Personally I’m embarrassed for this franchise

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

You should probably watch Hronek play before you burn the city down.

I'm clueless for having patience and wanting to see the big picture? You can't grade this deal until we know what type of roster is heading into next year.

Being a bottom dweller for a decade is a moot point. These things already happened - it's a sunk cost.

You have to look forward and see what's the best moves for this organization.

We don't know yet for this trade... and probably won't be able to properly grade this deal for another 4-5 years.

But yeah... I'm clueless for wanting to give the player a shot before I burn the city down. Yup.

I'll put it this way:

If they fail to get back to the playoffs within the next two years now the organization will be in big time trouble. Lots of ticket holders I know were already skipping games and trying to give away tickets but were genuinely hopeful for potential new top rookies and young guys coming. Now this has flipped that direction and it's like they are saying "we are close, we don't need prospects."

Truth is they aren't even remotely close, anyone paying attention knows this.

Could they somehow make this into a playoff team? No, I don't think it's possible in the next 2-3 years and I think this is going to do series damage to the actual fanbase that they have decided to run the same Benning tactic basically a 3rd time (2014-2018 with linden, benning free for all 2018-2021, repeat).

 

[credulous]

they can absolutely make the playoffs next year

buyout oel and boeser. sign gavrikov, compher and barbashev. trade hoglander for a decent bottom pairing dman who can pk

will they be a contender? no absolutely not. will they have any route to improvement going forward? not really. will they get worse when they have to let beauvillier or hronek walk as a free agent? definitely

 

[JohnHodgson]

I'll put it this way:

If they fail to get back to the playoffs within the next two years now the organization will be in big time trouble. Lots of ticket holders I know were already skipping games and trying to give away tickets but were genuinely hopeful for potential new top rookies and young guys coming. Now this has flipped that direction and it's like they are saying "we are close, we don't need prospects."

Truth is they aren't even remotely close, anyone paying attention knows this.

Could they somehow make this into a playoff team? No, I don't think it's possible in the next 2-3 years and I think this is going to do series damage to the actual fanbase that they have decided to run the same Benning tactic basically a 3rd time (2014-2018 with linden, benning free for all 2018-2021, repeat).

I don't agree with your assessment at all.

A win-now trade is trading a top 10 pick for OEL.

The intent of this trade is to help build the core of this team for many years to come. Hroneks only 25 - he legitimately might have 8 good years left in him.

This isn't a win now trade. This is a, let's build our D core for the next 8 years trade.

 

[Jay26]

You should probably watch Hronek play before you burn the city down.

I'm clueless for having patience and wanting to see the big picture? You can't grade this deal until we know what type of roster is heading into next year.

Being a bottom dweller for a decade is a moot point. These things already happened - it's a sunk cost.

You have to look forward and see what's the best moves for this organization.

We don't know yet for this trade... and probably won't be able to properly grade this deal for another 4-5 years.

But yeah... I'm clueless for wanting to give the player a shot before I burn the city down. Yup.

Holy shit....

Imagine being a contrarian to something so basic that is universally agreed upon. Bottom dweller teams like the Canucks tend to at least keep the draft picks they have if they're not going full fire sale. I know you know this, you just want to be validated so bad so you're being deliberately dumbstruck. You know full well the Canucks are going against the grain. This isn't a "nothing to see here" thing.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I don't agree with your assessment at all.

A win-now trade is trading a top 10 pick for OEL.

The intent of this trade is to help build the core of this team for many years to come. Hroneks only 25 - he legitimately might have 8 good years left in him.

This isn't a win now trade. This is a, let's build our D core for the next 8 years trade.

Sure, Hronek becomes the replacement to Myers (assuming Myers is gone).

So next year they are going to be spending $5 mil (I assume they trade Myers after his bonus) on Myers, then $4.4 on Hronek to fill that 2nd pairing right side spot.

As someone mentioned the D for next year looks like this:

Hughes ($7.85 mil) - ???????
??????? - Hronek ($4.4 mil)
OEL ($7.26 mil) - Bear ($2 mil'ish?)
Poolman ($2.5 mil)

Forward good is good but not remarkable, probably not a good playoff group as lacking in much grit.

Demko and then it looks like Silovs will push in but is unproven really at any level.

That is just a mess. As mentioned I could see them trying to fill that other 2nd pairing d-spot... maybe a Dante Fabbro for another 1st or two 1sts or whatever.

Then they sign someone at top price $5 mil after moving a Boeser and a Garland.

Even with all that ... this isn't even close to a contending team and I don't think it's a playoff contention team.

As noted this isn't like the Devils, Carolina, Rangers who are drafting and developing guys. There's little to no help coming on the back end and at center. Very little in the way of security with inevitable injuries.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Nothing makes sense.

The thought process from JR was that he wanted to keep draft picks. He initially believed the team was weak in transition and was relatively easy to play against.

Doubles down on the roster by committing salary and term to Boeser, Mikaylev and Miller and f*** over whatever cap flexibility they had. They got a fortunate break in that Poolman ended up on LTIR but not after tossing a 2nd round pick away to clear Dickinson.

They went for it and things went to hell. They sold the pieces they could. They were maybe looking at weaponizing cap space...but have instead made a move to challenge for a playoff spot in 2023-24. Now they are really screwed in that they HAVE to clear cap space. No way around this.

Teams are going to ask for a premium for the players they want to move and I could see the Canucks brass parting with a majority of their 2024 and 2025 picks and several prospects to get this done. I also see them buying out OEL to add more cap space.

This management group has been given a directive to win now and turn this around and you really needed a group to really get things right. I have zero faith in these guys though. Unforced errors sunk them in the first offseason and now they have really put their own backs against the wall for 2023-24.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Sure, Hronek becomes the replacement to Myers (assuming Myers is gone).

So next year they are going to be spending $5 mil (I assume they trade Myers after his bonus) on Myers, then $4.4 on Hronek to fill that 2nd pairing right side spot.

As someone mentioned the D for next year looks like this:

Hughes ($7.85 mil) - ???????
??????? - Hronek ($4.4 mil)
OEL ($7.26 mil) - Bear ($2 mil'ish?)
Poolman ($2.5 mil)

Forward good is good but not remarkable, probably not a good playoff group as lacking in much grit.

Demko and then it looks like Silovs will push in but is unproven really at any level.

That is just a mess. As mentioned I could see them trying to fill that other 2nd pairing d-spot... maybe a Dante Fabbro for another 1st or two 1sts or whatever.

Then they sign someone at top price $5 mil after moving a Boeser and a Garland.

Even with all that ... this isn't even close to a contending team and I don't think it's a playoff contention team.

As noted this isn't like the Devils, Carolina, Rangers who are drafting and developing guys. There's little to no help coming on the back end and at center. Very little in the way of security with inevitable injuries.

LOL.

Go take a walk outside bro.

Nobody knows how this roster is going to be come the start of next year.

We might see multiple high impact trades in less than 48 hours. I'd say take a step back and just chill. If the roster is absolute ass heading into next year, I think you have reason to complain. Until then, I would sit tight and just wait.

 

[Jay26]

LOL.

Go take a walk outside bro.

Nobody knows how this roster is going to be come the start of next year.

We might see multiple high impact trades in less than 48 hours. I'd say take a step back and just chill. If the roster is absolute ass heading into next year, I think you have reason to complain. Until then, I would sit tight and just wait.

The roster will likely be ass next season and the next because they barely have a prospect pool to draw from, despite being a bottom dweller for a decade now. You can't buy and trade your way to a contender. You buy and trade for the surrounding pieces that put you over the top.

Tampa Bay didn't buy or trade for Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov, Vasilevskiy and Point.

 

[Diogenes92]

I don't agree with your assessment at all.

A win-now trade is trading a top 10 pick for OEL.

The intent of this trade is to help build the core of this team for many years to come. Hroneks only 25 - he legitimately might have 8 good years left in him.

This isn't a win now trade. This is a, let's build our D core for the next 8 years trade.

On average a D-man's prime is up until 27 if you look at stats and overall performance.

Everything after that is diminishing returns unless you're a special D like Keith or Giordano who played at a top level well into their 30s.

This is very much a win-now move and its quite possible Hronek has already played his best hockey he'll ever play.

Let's be realistic here. This trade is in no way a "future-oriented" move. It's an announcement that they're willing to blow up all of their cap space and assets to compete before Petey starts costing 12+ million.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

LOL.

Go take a walk outside bro.

Nobody knows how this roster is going to be come the start of next year.

We might see multiple high impact trades in less than 48 hours. I'd say take a step back and just chill. If the roster is absolute ass heading into next year, I think you have reason to complain. Until then, I would sit tight and just wait.

LOL but it's ass every year and they keep trying to fix it the same way. Should I not complain about that? After year 11 can we complain?

 

[Jay26]

LOL but it's ass every year and they keep trying to fix it the same way. Should I not complain about that? After year 11 can we complain?

No we won't be able to because by then the Canucks will have made another stupid trade that we have to wait to evaluate.

 

[canucksfan]

 

[JohnHodgson]

LOL but it's ass every year and they keep trying to fix it the same way. Should I not complain about that? After year 11 can we complain?

The Jim Benning era and JR/Allvin era are completely separate, and should be viewed as such.

JB was quite literally one of the worst GMs in NHL history, and was employed for eight years and set this team back a decade.

JR/Allvin have been here for a little over a year... they need to be given a fair shake to revamp this roster.

JR/Allvin already said they are retooling 100 times already... I don't know why everyone's so surprised??

 

[credulous]

as it stands the canucks have a little under 1.7 mil to sign bear, hoglander and kravtsov (assuming poolman is still on ltir. if he makes a comeback they're over the cap without resigning anyone). if pearson retires too they get a little more than 5 mil

they better hope they can find a taker for myers or boeser otherwise they might have to give away beauvillier

 

[logan5]

We have deep forward group, who is led by Pettersson. The D is terrible, but there are only 6 starting spots on the d, with the bottom 2 fairly easy to fill. That leaves building a good to 4. Obviously Hughes is an elite top 4, and now Hronek fits in that top 4 roll, and he just turned 25 4 months ago. So that leaves only 2 top 4 spots left to fill. You don’t abandon elite pieces like Pettersson and Hughes, and great support players (near elite as well) like Kuzmenko and Miller, and the all important goaltender Demko. There are too many important pieces in place to abandon. No sane GM would do a rebuild on this team. The talk today is over the top crazy.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

The Jim Benning era and JR/Allvin era are completely separate, and should be viewed as such.

JB was quite literally one of the worst GMs in NHL history, and was employed for eight years and set this team back a decade.

JR/Allvin have been here for a little over a year... they need to be given a fair shake to revamp this roster.

JR/Allvin already said they are retooling 100 times already... I don't know why everyone's so surprised??

LOL it's only surprising because we've seen it for a decade and we cannot fathom how anyone thinks it works. It doesn't. We are experts here in Van land. Show me a successful re-tool on the fly of a bottom 10 team for a decade who keeps trading away picks.

We have deep forward group, who is led by Pettersson. The D is terrible, but there are only 6 starting spots on the d, with the bottom 2 fairly easy to fill. That leaves building a good to 4. Obviously Hughes is an elite top 4, and now Hronek fits in that top 4 roll, and he just turned 25 4 months ago. So that leaves only 2 top 4 spots left to fill. You don’t abandon elite pieces like Pettersson and Hughes, and great support players (near elite as well) like Kuzmenko and Miller, and the all important goaltender Demko. There are too many important pieces in place to abandon. No sane GM would do a rebuild on this team. The talk today is over the top crazy.

... the team is bottom 10 in the NHL with a bottom 5 prospect pool. I garauntee if they add a couple more 2nd pairing d-men for 1st round picks they still miss the playoffs 9 times out of 10.

 

[Jay26]

We have deep forward group, who is led by Pettersson. The D is terrible, but there are only 6 starting spots on the d, with the bottom 2 fairly easy to fill. That leaves building a good to 4. Obviously Hughes is an elite top 4, and now Hronek fits in that top 4 roll, and he just turned 25 4 months ago. So that leaves only 2 top 4 spots left to fill. You don’t abandon elite pieces like Pettersson and Hughes, and great support players (near elite as well) like Kuzmenko and Miller, and the all important goaltender Demko. There are too many important pieces in place to abandon. No sane GM would do a rebuild on this team. The talk today is over the top crazy.

Again, you don't have to do a full on rebuild. Just keep the picks you already have! The Canucks keeping those two top 40 picks and using them in a deep draft doesn't signal a rebuild.

If we didn't trade Miller or Boeser or really do anything at the deadline I would have been content. Maybe a little disdappointed, but content. We would have been going into this draft with decent capital. So it's not like I'm calling for a scorched earth rebuild.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

f*** these idiots

This does it for me...

Our retool boys should be happy tho.

 

[logan5]

Holy shit....

Imagine being a contrarian to something so basic that is universally agreed upon. Bottom dweller teams like the Canucks tend to at least keep the draft picks they have if they're not going full fire sale. I know you know this, you just want to be validated so bad so you're being deliberately dumbstruck. You know full well the Canucks are going against the grain. This isn't a "nothing to see here" thing.

It’s not as simple as just “bottom dweller team so collect draft picks”. Bottom dweller teams tend not to have pieces like 100 plus point C and 80 point D who are 23 and 24 years old already in place. You build around those pieces, not wait 4 or 5 years for your draft picks to mature.

That’s my philosophy anyways. You have a different approach.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I understand what you're saying. I won't speak for others, I'll speak for myself. Im not judging this based on the player, again I'm judging this based on the situation and timing. It makes zero sense to acquire this player at this time w the inflated values because teams that are actually in the hunt or gearing up for a playoff run, pay premiums for players. The Canucks are not in a position to keep leaking assets that are of great value anytime, which are draft picks. And in this case it just so happens to be in a year where its being called the deepest since 03. Now I'm not judging hronek cuz in a bubble, he's a good nuff d. But to pay that now when the assets u give are far higher than at damn near any other time of the year and u chose now. 2nd, if it makes us a better team, it just leads to a handful more wins that lower our own pick. Do u think the players, after a whole year of getting shit kicked, will look at this yr and think success because they won 4 more games at the end? It's just backwards logic.

This is another reason why, IMO, Hronek will need to come in and massively over-perform or he will be hated in the market. He becomes the key piece Horvat was dealt for and what was part of the future hope of the team.

It’s not as simple as just “bottom dweller team so collect draft picks”. Bottom dweller teams tend not to have pieces like 100 plus point C and 80 point D who are 23 and 24 years old already in place. You build around those pieces, not wait 4 or 5 years for your draft picks to mature.

That’s my philosophy anyways. You have a different approach.

Teams with those types of guys don't tend to go year after year as lottery pick teams firing coaches every year.

You also must must must have a pipeline of prospects coming. Chicago, LA, Boston, Tampa, etc always had a slew of young guys coming up who they could either use or trade off to fill holes. The Canucks have basically nothing. They have added a couple more wingers (ok they have wingers) but they are missing so so so much in terms of a prospect pool.

 

[wetcoast]

this is more like the gudbranson trade than the oel trade. it's a huge retool gamble on an age gap player they are hoping is taking a step. they have overpaid for that possibility.

that trade defined benning because he f***ed up the scouting.

so let's see how well allvin's crew scouted this guy.

Even if Hronek becomes a solid second pairing guy who scores 40-50 points a year does it make us any closer to being an actual legit playoff team?

No one in the system is even close to making an impact and lots of other steams are in the same current situation with incredible pipeline to makes things better.

The player isn't the problem it's management and really ownership with this "let's make the playoffs" and totally disregarding how poorly constructed out organization is.

But heck I'm in my mid 50s and this has been the Canucks basically forever.

they can absolutely make the playoffs next year

buyout oel and boeser. sign gavrikov, compher and barbashev. trade hoglander for a decent bottom pairing dman who can pk

will they be a contender? no absolutely not. will they have any route to improvement going forward? not really. will they get worse when they have to let beauvillier or hronek walk as a free agent? definitely

This sounds like every Canuck offseason for like the last 10 years....if these 7 things happen then we might have a chance then we talk about the 4th liners they signed to get to the Cap.

Pure insanity.

 

[Hit the post]

This is another reason why, IMO, Hronek will need to come in and massively over-perform or he will be hated in the market. He becomes the key piece Horvat was dealt for and what was part of the future hope of the team.



Teams with those types of guys don't tend to go year after year as lottery pick teams firing coaches every year.

You also must must must have a pipeline of prospects coming. Chicago, LA, Boston, Tampa, etc always had a slew of young guys coming up who they could either use or trade off to fill holes. The Canucks have basically nothing. They have added a couple more wingers (ok they have wingers) but they are missing so so so much in terms of a prospect pool.

I can think of a worse scenario (at least from Fredo's perspective). People might not just give a shit. Fan apathy (more & more empty seats at Rogers) is a greater threat. At least for a multi-millionaire slumlord that was too cheap to pay his son a $40,000 computer.

 

[credulous]

This sounds like every Canuck offseason for like the last 10 years....if these 7 things happen then we might have a chance then we talk about the 4th liners they signed to get to the Cap.

Pure insanity.

100% agreed. i think going for it now is just about the worst plan possible but it's what i expect them to do. they'll make a selection with their first and their 6 selections in the first 120 picks of the draft (5 of them being from 60 on) and talk about how they're very excited about what it means for the future of the club and then they'll make a bunch of short sighted 'win now' moves that maybe lets them squeak into the playoffs

it's the same no-plan plan they've been running since gillis left. if we could just get a jared mccann for one of our overpaid dmen or pick up a player like forsling on waivers or we had a prospect like mukhamadullin or guenther to step into the lineup maybe it can work out...