Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[me2]

Benning broke you

1 year in and new management have run through a series public relations catastrophies, botched trading Miller, fired coaches the extended or brought in, misjudged the state of the team, made cap allocation errors etc. Outside of Kuzmenko it's an average to bad. Benning year. Not OEL bad, not Pettersson good.

More importantly management has failed to enunciate any plan for the team or tackle major weak links. At this point the obligation is on them to prove competence not the other way around. They have just the next 6 months to do so or the Canucks are screwed.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

1 year in and new management have run through a series public relations catastrophies, botched trading Miller, fired coaches the extended or brought in, misjudged the state of the team, made cap allocation errors etc. Outside of Kuzmenko it's an average to bad. Benning year. Not OEL bad, not Pettersson good.

More importantly management has failed to enunciate any plan for the team or tackle major weak links. At this point the obligation is on them to prove competence not the other way around. They have just the next 6 months to do so or the Canucks are screwed.

I don't see how it's possible to "fix" the team and not overhaul. Always willing to be surprised but my bet would be on at least another 3-5 years of same old same old bottom 10 team.

 

[arttk]

I disagree with you on this.

If they intend to go for it they need to actually go for it.

That makes zero sense from a long term sustainability perspective. There is zero way for this team to jump for wherever we are to Tampa level one season so why even bother.

like high level, next year, 23-24, we should try to get to as close to playoff level while spending as little assets as possible. This way you can see more clearly which area needs to be improved upon and you just spend asset to improve on that very specific spot. You should be able to do it by focusing on cheap players that can help you reduce the GA and let the big guns, Petey, Kuz, Miller and Hughes drive the offense for you.

Then 24-25, I assume the draft piece from this year will come in so you’ll have ELC support. Also you would hope the piece from Bo trade is starting to contribute. I think you can still be conservative about spending assets to improve the team but the team should be a playoff team already at this stage.

Then year 25-26 is where you start to put bigger bets. Because now you should have a steadier stream of ELC players coming in and the original top10 pick should be playing at a good level. You have the right balance of vet, elc and trade deadline help.

if they bet big this off-season then they won’t have that pipe of ELC nor will they have the assets to use when the team actually gets better.

 

[theguardianII]

Overall the performance of this core, highly paid as they are, has been nothing less than dismal for years now.

Even Hughes mentioned "4 years". The players notice the time flying by while their career's get closer to ending.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

That makes zero sense from a long term sustainability perspective. There is zero way for this team to jump for wherever we are to Tampa level one season so why even bother.

like high level, next year, 23-24, we should try to get to as close to playoff level while spending as little assets as possible. This way you can see more clearly which area needs to be improved upon and you just spend asset to improve on that very specific spot. You should be able to do it by focusing on cheap players that can help you reduce the GA and let the big guns, Petey, Kuz, Miller and Hughes drive the offense for you.

Then 24-25, I assume the draft piece from this year will come in so you’ll have ELC support. Also you would hope the piece from Bo trade is starting to contribute. I think you can still be conservative about spending assets to improve the team but the team should be a playoff team already at this stage.

Then year 25-26 is where you start to put bigger bets. Because now you should have a steadier stream of ELC players coming in and the original top10 pick should be playing at a good level. You have the right balance of vet, elc and trade deadline help.

if they bet big this off-season then they won’t have that pipe of ELC nor will they have the assets to use when the team actually gets better.

Oh.

I dont think their plan is to be good long term.
It is to try to get a last kick at the can with this core before all the previous mistakes make it 100% impossible.

There isnt enough fuel in the tank for a long trip.

 

[gringo]

Hearing rumors that Myers bonus is paid on September 1 not July 1? Is that true? If so wow talk about a poison pill.

 

[Brookbank]

1 year in and new management have run through a series public relations catastrophies, botched trading Miller, fired coaches the extended or brought in, misjudged the state of the team, made cap allocation errors etc. Outside of Kuzmenko it's an average to bad. Benning year. Not OEL bad, not Pettersson good.

More importantly management has failed to enunciate any plan for the team or tackle major weak links. At this point the obligation is on them to prove competence not the other way around. They have just the next 6 months to do so or the Canucks are screwed.

The PR catastrophes are a direct result of JR being completely oblivious to what a Canadian market is really like. And I dont think this will change through his tenure.

 

[arttk]

1 year in and new management have run through a series public relations catastrophies, botched trading Miller, fired coaches the extended or brought in, misjudged the state of the team, made cap allocation errors etc. Outside of Kuzmenko it's an average to bad. Benning year. Not OEL bad, not Pettersson good.

More importantly management has failed to enunciate any plan for the team or tackle major weak links. At this point the obligation is on them to prove competence not the other way around. They have just the next 6 months to do so or the Canucks are screwed.

I think these are valid points.

The way I see it is I don’t really give a shit about the do called PR stuff. The Dorrie stuff is stupid, the coach stuff is over played but whatever, I understand why people are concern about it but it doesn’t really affect team building or whatever.

They have came out and said they mis read the team and will do more to build this thing. I don’t think you guys recognize how important that is. Like the thing about Benning is he is not just incompetent but arrogant about his mistakes. Mistakes happen and if they can recognize it and not repeat it, then whatever as long as the mistakes are not catastrophic. Like if they double down this season, then we are kinda f***ed. It seems like they are not and they are starting to really shut shit down and embrace the tank, that’s what we want.

Like from a team building perspective, things that are important are, scouting ability, negotiation ability and ability to trade. We really don’t have that much insight there. Their FA signings have been good so far so ok maybe pro scouting is good, more trades will validate that. Negotiation, the contracts they have signed are fair, even if you guys hate the Miller contract, it’s a fair contract. Ditto with Kuz’s contract and Miki. Actually it’s very likely both of them will outperform their contract. Then trades, you can say they didn’t get Miller done, while true. I think it’s more like they have a price and they are going to be hardasses about getting what they want and none of that Benning trading players away and throwing a pick back shit. Once again there aren’t enough there yet to judge and then you have to take into account of the macro environment to understand not being able to trade in an environment where no trades are being made is understandable. We’ll see at TDL if that hardass mentality is going to pay off or not.

I don’t agree with the Tocchet appointment and I guess we can see how things will go by end of season.

It’s absolutely insane to me that people think management needs to tell us exactly what they are planning to do. Like if management comes out and say oh we are going to to trade Myers, Garland, Boeser away and we are planning to do it by whatever method. All hell is going to break lose. There is literally zero benefit in telling us what they plan to do how they plan to do it. We have never seen in any sports league any management group come out and do that and yet somehow you guys are saying that as if it’s a negative.

 

[credulous]

They have came out and said they mis read the team and will do more to build this thing. I don’t think you guys recognize how important that is. Like the thing about Benning is he is not just incompetent but arrogant about his mistakes. Mistakes happen and if they can recognize it and not repeat it, then whatever as long as the mistakes are not catastrophic. Like if they double down this season, then we are kinda f***ed. It seems like they are not and they are starting to really shut shit down and embrace the tank, that’s what we want.

they doubled down on benning's roster when they extended miller and boeser and the most significant change they made to his roster was swapping hamonic for dermott

you can say oh they didn't realize how bad the team was but now they do but rutherford is still claiming they're going to turn this around in 2 seasons. their actions and their words are contrary to the kind of patience it will take to repair this team

they need to actually start solving problems like myers, boeser, garland, oel, the trash bottom six and the lack of nhl defenseman before they get any credit for putting this team on a better path

 

[arttk]

Oh.

I dont think their plan is to be good long term.
It is to try to get a last kick at the can with this core before all the previous mistakes make it 100% impossible.

There isnt enough fuel in the tank for a long trip.

I don’t think there is enough fuel to juice this thing in the short term. You are just really wasting assets to try it.

 

[Vector]

Hearing rumors that Myers bonus is paid on September 1 not July 1? Is that true? If so wow talk about a poison pill.

It’s not. That comes from Dreger announcing the signing. Signing bonuses can be paid out after Jul. 1st.

 

[arttk]

they doubled down on benning's roster when they extended miller and boeser and the most significant change they made to his roster was swapping hamonic for dermott

you can say oh they didn't realize how bad the team was but now they do but rutherford is still claiming they're going to turn this around in 2 seasons. their actions and their words are contrary to the kind of patience it will take to repair this team

they need to actually start solving problems like myers, boeser, garland, oel, the trash bottom six and the lack of nhl defenseman before they get any credit for putting this team on a better path

I think if I hear this double down thing I am going to go crazy. Not being able to trade away guys due to them having a shit contract and the market being bad due to flat cap is not double down.

This take is so god damn stupid. We know they tried to get rid of a bunch of guys and can’t because of various reasons. It’s like the concept of having a transitional year is an alien concept to you guys. We know the guys that are on the market, Myers, Garland, Boeser, Bo, Schenn. We know there are guys they can’t get rid of anymore due to LTIR like Poolman and now Pearson. We know there is OEL who might get bought out if they can convince aqua to pay for it.

It’s like at the end of this they will keep Petey, Miller, Hughes, Pod, hog? and Demko from the old regime. It’s just taking longer that what we fans want to get there and keeping a couple of good players left over from Benning is not double downing, it’s called being pragmatic.

 

[credulous]

I think if I hear this double down thing I am going to go crazy. Not being able to trade away guys due to them having a shit contract and the market being bad due to flat cap is not double down.

what forced them to extend boeser and miller? they absolutely could have traded garland last year before his value tanked

i'm not blaming them for being stuck with oel, myers, pearson and poolman. those are just toxic deals that any team would be hard pressed to move. i'm blaming them for not making the moves that were available to them

we'll see what they do coming up. they might course correct. i just think it's too early to give them credit for doing it just because allvin and rutherford have said they need to change this roster. they said that 12 months ago too

 

[VanJack]

Following the Vancouver Canuck is like the NHL's version of 'Groundhog Day'. Team fails to make the playoffs for the third consecutive season, and everybody gets a new contract.

Management says they want to 'better manage the salary cap'. Then they go out and sign Mikheyev, Miller, Boeser and Kuzmemko to expensive new deals....and not one of them is a natural center or a d-man where they desperately need help..

The only difference this time is that there's no money for Horvat, who along with Pettersson, is the only real center they have.. But I suppose if they had it, they'd probably re-up Horvat too

Memo to Jim and Patrick: "The last time I looked at the standings, the Canucks were in 27th place. Tell me again how bringing back the same guys is going to magically produce a different result"?

 

[arttk]

what forced them to extend boeser and miller? they absolutely could have traded garland last year before his value tanked

i'm not blaming them for being stuck with oel, myers, pearson and poolman. those are just toxic deals that any team would be hard pressed to move. i'm blaming them for not making the moves that were available to them

we'll see what they do coming up. they might course correct. i just think it's too early to give them credit for doing it just because allvin and rutherford have said they need to change this roster. they said that 12 months ago too

I think with Boeser they wanted to rehab his value. The fact there are rumors that they are going to get rid of him shows that they really have no attachment to him. You don’t sign a guy and get rid of him like that. Just look at Miller as the example, they wanted him and they signed him and we never heard any rumors about they wanting to trade him away even though he played like ass this season. That’s shows you how different they view those players.

I am not giving them any credit, I just don’t buy the idea they are actually double downing on the Benning team. Like if after this coming off-season we still see the same crew, then yeah you guys are absolutely right.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

That makes zero sense from a long term sustainability perspective. There is zero way for this team to jump for wherever we are to Tampa level one season so why even bother.

like high level, next year, 23-24, we should try to get to as close to playoff level while spending as little assets as possible. This way you can see more clearly which area needs to be improved upon and you just spend asset to improve on that very specific spot. You should be able to do it by focusing on cheap players that can help you reduce the GA and let the big guns, Petey, Kuz, Miller and Hughes drive the offense for you.

Then 24-25, I assume the draft piece from this year will come in so you’ll have ELC support. Also you would hope the piece from Bo trade is starting to contribute. I think you can still be conservative about spending assets to improve the team but the team should be a playoff team already at this stage.

Then year 25-26 is where you start to put bigger bets. Because now you should have a steadier stream of ELC players coming in and the original top10 pick should be playing at a good level. You have the right balance of vet, elc and trade deadline help.

if they bet big this off-season then they won’t have that pipe of ELC nor will they have the assets to use when the team actually gets better.

Sorry, what pipe? They are already down a couple picks the next few drafts and there's still no indication they intend to add.

 

[arttk]

Sorry, what pipe? They are already down a couple picks the next few drafts and there's still no indication they intend to add.

We are 1 month away from the TDL, we can pickup that convo after that.

 

[Breakers]

Literally nobody is advocating for that

Wrong
Posters have been on her tons defending picks going out the door for trash

 

[Diogenes92]

Tampa tanked, I said that, and the part you are ignoring was that in those 3 years where they were at the bottom, they got 2 players in Stamkos and Hedman. That was it, they didn’t draft like their whole cast in those years, only two guys, and once they got those guys they started to build and get out of the tank and they did it mostly through trades, not draft.

Chicago if you look at their history, they have been drafting in the top 10 since 1999. They had keith, Seabrook, Buf, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell, Ruutu and a bunch more all drafted before they stated their more official rebuild that landed them Toews, and Kane. They didn’t do a rebuild and got all their depth, they sucked for a decade and got a ton of depth players and then did their rebuild. If you look at their “rebuild” years where they got Kane and Toews, they were the only players they got through the draft those years.

Like all the teams you guys claim as like the model for rebuilding didn’t get all their pieces through the draft in their actual rebuild years. Yes they all had some down years post the rebuild years but those years are down years by accident, not on purpose.

The idea that you can rebuild now and get a whole new core of like 4-5 players can happen if you decide to tank over a period of like 5-7 years. It’s super rare to have teams unearth like 2 core players in one draft.

The more draft picks you have, the better chance you hit on future building pieces.

The Benning model of picking less than 7 times per draft didn't work, even when they found amazing players with some of those picks.

Imagine if they'd had even 1.5x the picks throughout Benning's reign of error. The current core would likely be a lot better right now and we'd be having a different conversation.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Tampa tanked, I said that, and the part you are ignoring was that in those 3 years where they were at the bottom, they got 2 players in Stamkos and Hedman. That was it, they didn’t draft like their whole cast in those years, only two guys, and once they got those guys they started to build and get out of the tank and they did it mostly through trades, not draft.

Chicago if you look at their history, they have been drafting in the top 10 since 1999. They had keith, Seabrook, Buf, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell, Ruutu and a bunch more all drafted before they stated their more official rebuild that landed them Toews, and Kane. They didn’t do a rebuild and got all their depth, they sucked for a decade and got a ton of depth players and then did their rebuild. If you look at their “rebuild” years where they got Kane and Toews, they were the only players they got through the draft those years.

Like all the teams you guys claim as like the model for rebuilding didn’t get all their pieces through the draft in their actual rebuild years. Yes they all had some down years post the rebuild years but those years are down years by accident, not on purpose.

The idea that you can rebuild now and get a whole new core of like 4-5 players can happen if you decide to tank over a period of like 5-7 years. It’s super rare to have teams unearth like 2 core players in one draft.

Tampa also tanked (not sure if on purpose) to get Drouin at 3rd overall who they parlayed into Sergachev. So basically half their top 4 defence including their #1 all situations Norris and Smythe winner, and #1 centre. They also got a franchise player in the 2nd round in Kucherov and another fantastic top 6 player in the 3rd round in Point, which is a combination of excellent drafting and luck that the players were still available at those spots (not easily replicable for other rebuilding teams).

 

[mriswith]

I think if I hear this double down thing I am going to go crazy. Not being able to trade away guys due to them having a shit contract and the market being bad due to flat cap is not double down.

This take is so god damn stupid. We know they tried to get rid of a bunch of guys and can’t because of various reasons. It’s like the concept of having a transitional year is an alien concept to you guys. We know the guys that are on the market, Myers, Garland, Boeser, Bo, Schenn. We know there are guys they can’t get rid of anymore due to LTIR like Poolman and now Pearson. We know there is OEL who might get bought out if they can convince aqua to pay for it.

It’s like at the end of this they will keep Petey, Miller, Hughes, Pod, hog? and Demko from the old regime. It’s just taking longer that what we fans want to get there and keeping a couple of good players left over from Benning is not double downing, it’s called being pragmatic.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

May I offer you a second helping of this meme,

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I'm 99% sure that Bo Horvat went to clown College and that this is him in the picture.

 

[bossram]

Like people want to use NJ as an example, guess what, outside of Severson their whole blue line was acquired via FA and trade.

You need draft picks to make the trades NJ did on the blueline.

Guess what the Canucks continually give away? Draft picks!

Post-draft, does someone want a 2024 2nd for the next Ryan Graves or John Marino? Oh! Vancouver doesn't have one! Vancouver also doesn't even have the cap flexibility to absorb those players.

 

[gringo]

OEL needs to be bought out this summer if we want to build a “team” that can win in the next three years. I’ll take the chances that the cap will rise and help cover the damn cost. Minnesota hit the bullet and it was worth it.