Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[arttk]

How did Tampa acquire those players? You’re almost there!!!!


Those players being the ones they traded for?

They used their stockpile of assets. And since their system is deep they can continue to slot in depth from within.

The Canucks don’t have Tampa’s high end players or their middle end players and the system is barren.

Have you ever actually looked at it Tampa’s history or did you just made those assumptions?

When they yanked, they had 7 picks per year for those tank years. The only core player they got from the tank years were Stamkos and Hedman. Connolly they got 2 picks for and those picks ended up busting. If you think they had like 10+ picks and drafted a bunch of guys and flipped a bunch of them to help them get where they are today, that didn’t happen.

Kucherov, Point, Cirelli all drafted when they were competing. Yeah they traded for some players and surprisingly for multiple years they operate a pick or two short. Probably from trading them away to acquire guys like McDonagh and etc. they did what you guys are arguing against, which is a slow build.

We no core have.

We only have 2 good player.

For cup need more.

Tampa got 2 players from their tank, the rest of the players were acquired after the tank was done.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Tampa got 2 players from their tank, the rest of the players were acquired after the tank was done.

Well f***.

Lets go get that ring!

 

[arttk]

Well f***.

Lets go get that ring!

Benning broke you

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Benning broke you

Nah.

I just know what it looks like when a shit franchise actually turns around.

I'm a Bengals fan for 2 decades.

 

[Svencouver]

Have you ever actually looked at it Tampa’s history or did you just made those assumptions?

When they yanked, they had 7 picks per year for those tank years. The only core player they got from the tank years were Stamkos and Hedman. Connolly they got 2 picks for and those picks ended up busting. If you think they had like 10+ picks and drafted a bunch of guys and flipped a bunch of them to help them get where they are today, that didn’t happen.

Kucherov, Point, Cirelli all drafted when they were competing. Yeah they traded for some players and surprisingly for multiple years they operate a pick or two short. Probably from trading them away to acquire guys like McDonagh and etc. they did what you guys are arguing against, which is a slow build.


Tampa got 2 players from their tank, the rest of the players were acquired after the tank was done.

Yeah. It really is strange to me that people don't know this stuff? It doesn't even take a huge amount of in-depth knowledge of other teams affairs and operations. Just being a fan of the league over this period of time should be enough information to recall with regards to this.

 

[arttk]

Nah.

I just know what it looks like when a shit franchise actually turns around.

I'm a Bengals fan for 2 decades.

Even if you look at the Avs who went through a “rebuild”. They started in 2009 and it took them 9 years to get out and they drafted 6 times in the top10. 9 years. There is no such thing as a fast rebuild.

Hell even if you look at their history, it really is, they get one player in each of their tank year and that’s it. It’s really a fantasy to think oh you do it and you can get oodles of depth. Tank. Yeah they have depth because they spent 6+ years in the tank and most years they get 1 player and some years they get 2. And majority of the team that makes it out of a rebuild actually relies more on trade and FA.

 

[credulous]

Tampa got 2 players from their tank, the rest of the players were acquired after the tank was done.

what does this say for vancouver? if pettersson is stamkos and hughes is hedman we can maybe hope to be a good team in 6 years after we hit on our cirelli, point and kucherov over the next four drafts?

 

[Nucker101]

Even if you look at the Avs who went through a “rebuild”. They started in 2009 and it took them 9 years to get out and they drafted 6 times in the top10. 9 years. There is no such thing as a fast rebuild.

Hell even if you look at their history, it really is, they get one player in each of their tank year and that’s it. It’s really a fantasy to think oh you do it and you can get oodles of depth. Tank. Yeah they have depth because they spent 6+ years in the tank and most years they get 1 player and some years they get 2. And majority of the team that makes it out of a rebuild actually relies more on trade and FA.

How many OEL contracts do they have on the books?

Who are their 3 worst multi-year contracts versus the Canucks 3 worst?

 

[arttk]

what does this say for vancouver? if pettersson is stamkos and hughes is hedman we can maybe hope to be a good team in 6 years after we hit on our cirelli, point and kucherov over the next four drafts?

Well if you look at Tampa, like after those 3 tank years, they started to just build. And you can see that pattern exist for other teams coming out of the tank. They build and there are setback years where they finish really low and that’s how Tampa got guys like Drouin.
Tampa looks like a crazy outlier because it doesn’t look like any other teams were able to extract that much value from 2nd and 3rd rounders in drafting Point and Kucherov.
If you look at how they build their team, it’s a lot of trades and FA signings while they continue to draft and develop guys.

 

[arttk]

How many OEL contracts do they have on the books?

Who are their 3 worst multi-year contracts versus the Canucks 3 worst?

OEL is a problem for them to figure out. Like I have said before, I don’t know how they solve the issues, I am open enough to wait till like the off-season to see how things shake out.

I just don’t think it’s dire enough to say oh we need to start another 6+ year journey to the bottom. I mean if they f*** up hard this off-season then yeah.

 

[Svencouver]

what does this say for vancouver? if pettersson is stamkos and hughes is hedman we can maybe hope to be a good team in 6 years after we hit on our cirelli, point and kucherov over the next four drafts?

It means we have to draft and develop well, yes. We also have to have good pro scouting and be competitive with acquiring good players, which we have been with regards to Kuzmenko. Abbotsford seems like a far better environment than Utica, and Colliton a far better coach than Cull, as well, so that's another big plus for acquiring and developing depth (Tampa's development pipeline is notoriously strong). I see more encouraging signs than discouraging signs with this group, to be totally honest.

 

[Diogenes92]

Considering the NHL has a draft system, it’s impossible for teams to not have core that are drafted.

The issue is that you guys somehow think if you don’t have depth, you need to tank tank tank to get depth.

Hell even if you look at all the depth Tampa has in their cup years, a lot of the key players were acquired in trades and FA. McDonagh, Coleman, goodrow, verhaeghe and etc.

And even a lot of the homegrown guys, the depth were acquired because they were tanking. It was just drafting well over a course of like 10 years. They didn’t get Point, Kucherov because they were tanking. They got them because they draft well or got lucky depending on how you want to look at it.

Hell look at Dallas, they didn’t tank and one draft basically changed the trajectory of their franchise and now they are a contender.

you guys are seriously broken by Benning.

Where are the Canucks supposed to get their top defensman and centres?

They're always easy to find through free agency and trades right?

Its really not as simple as you say to just turn a team around in a single off-season.

I think this teams direction has broken a lot of fans perspectives as well.

 

[bossram]

Just a thought.

My frustration with the handling of the Mikheyev injury probably comes from my disagreement with the management on where this team is at. They thought they would be pushing for the playoffs this year, and while I thought there was a decent chance they might sneak in... In no way is this a season where you have players play through these kinds of injuries.

But maybe I am wrong. Maybe we are close to contention.

Yep. Especially after the 0-7-2 start or whatever they should've just shut him down at that point. Playoffs were already out of reach.

Bolded could be true. Just need one more middle-six winger to get over the top.

 

[theguardianII]

Hell even if you look at all the depth Tampa has in their cup years, a lot of the key players were acquired in trades and FA. McDonagh, Coleman, goodrow, verhaeghe and etc.

ow did Tampa acquire those players? You’re almost there!!!!


Those players being the ones they traded for?

They used their stockpile of assets. And since their system is deep they can continue to slot in depth from within.

What Tampa did was tank. They went from 93 pts to 71 then 66, under Tocchet drafted Stamkos #1 and Hedman #2 and several others in later rounds. Before that they rode the other tank players, cup winner BTW, Lecavalier, Richards with Torts to the ground. Both times they were pretty decent teams that dropped in points to get the lynch pins for winning cups.

In those tank years the draft position also allowed them earlier picks in all rounds, that said they had an outstanding scouting staff.

Colorado is also used as an example, okay, they lost in the semi finals with 95 pts, tanked to 69 pts and drafted Landeskog, surged back up to 95 pts and a quarter final appearance then tanked to 68 points again for McKinnon the next year they got Rantanen at #10. The next tank was 2016/17 they dropped from 82 points to 48 pts and worst in the league just below the Canucks, but both teams were dropped in the lottery with an unprecedented three teams jumping ahead. They took Makar, the Nucks took Pettersson.

Colorado's rebuild was no longer than the Canucks decade in chaos but there tanks were well thought out. Teams don't drop 30+ points without effort. Now it could be Sakic knows math and decides earlier when to mail it in so they are more dramatic but the results speak for themselves, a core of drafted players. Even previous drafted players used in trades which speeded up a rebuild. Even using a previously tanked for player, Duchene for a trade that resulted in Byram Bowen later. H kept the core young and close together in age.

Just so those two aren't enough Pittsburgh went from 96 points which they were a playoff team for 11 consecutive seasons, traded off most of their star players dropped for 4 years out of the playoffs but drafted Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal in the first round and several in the 2nd round which were the first players in each the remaining rounds. 4 years out of the playoffs, drafted a core then 17 consecutive years of playoffs, 4 cup appearances and 3 cups. So a 4 year tank between 37 years of playoff appearances but the core from tanking.

Chicago, under Bill Wirtz a poorly run team, intentionally but once Rocky got it that changed, 2006 and 2007 they tanked and got Kane and Toews and combined with just being a lousy team stuck in the mushy middle for the previous 8 years they tanked. Got the remainder of their core and were in the playoffs for 8 years in a row with 3 cups. Now they are tanking again.

Lets look at Buffalo now, on the rise with loads of cap space, a team with just about all the players entering their prime and in probably their second rebuild since 2014, they tanked and now have more star players than they will be able to keep under the cap in a few more years but will have trade assets for more than a decade to keep them relevant. Just outside a playoff spot now but in reality maybe one or two players away from getting in and staying there for more than a decade.

New Jersey Devils, lost in the cup finals in 2018 and then two owners and stuck in the mushy middle, tank and got lucky in the lottery , and now are a powerhouse in the playoffs, they spent less time than the Canucks in the wilderness and now have youth, depth, cap space and are in the playoffs.

Even lowly Arizona, a team in more turmoil than the Canucks are ahead of this team with again so many picks, prospects and cap space it is impossible for them to not be a playoff team for years very soon. Over 38 million in cap space next year, over 70 prospects under 24 yrs old and 30 draft picks over the next 3 drafts most in the first 3 rounds with maybe more coming. And they are ahead of the Canucks too.

The Canuck situation is mostly from the worst GM in NHL history but also a lesson that was forgotten about not doing a proper rebuild, retool or building job period. Even Quinn tore it down for a season or two, Burke did too.

But teams that win cups ALL have tanked or been bad due to other circumstances but many have tanks that are easily seen.

And like the McDavid draft there is a very real possibility that very soon teams will be jettisoning players for a better draft spot or chance at Bedard. So teams like the Canucks were will look good and beat teams like Chicago or Columbus that made their decision to tank earlier once the math was worked out.

Canucks were out of the playoffs at US thanks giving and guess what all the teams that were still are.

 

[theguardianII]

Where are the Canucks supposed to get their top defensman and centres?

They're always easy to find through free agency and trades right?

Its really not as simple as you say to just turn a team around in a single off-season.

I think this teams direction has broken a lot of fans perspectives as well.

Each 1st round pick is like a season and getting multiple early picks is a home run and speeds up a rebuild, retool or build.

The trick is to sustain excellence or minimize non playoff years between making the playoffs, hence a tank for a good draft year.

This draft year is deep and the next is the 2025 draft.

The lie that these players will no help for 4 or 5 years is just that, look at the ages of some of the las 20 years of cup winner, finalists or real contenders.

Things that stand out is age and size with a good combination of both.
There is no reason a team should only have a one or two year cup window except it is good for the NHL overall.

And there are exceptions to every rule.

 

[arttk]

Where are the Canucks supposed to get their top defensman and centres?

They're always easy to find through free agency and trades right?

Its really not as simple as you say to just turn a team around in a single off-season.

I think this teams direction has broken a lot of fans perspectives as well.

What Tampa did was tank. They went from 93 pts to 71 then 66, under Tocchet drafted Stamkos #1 and Hedman #2 and several others in later rounds. Before that they rode the other tank players, cup winner BTW, Lecavalier, Richards with Torts to the ground. Both times they were pretty decent teams that dropped in points to get the lynch pins for winning cups.

In those tank years the draft position also allowed them earlier picks in all rounds, that said they had an outstanding scouting staff.

Colorado is also used as an example, okay, they lost in the semi finals with 95 pts, tanked to 69 pts and drafted Landeskog, surged back up to 95 pts and a quarter final appearance then tanked to 68 points again for McKinnon the next year they got Rantanen at #10. The next tank was 2016/17 they dropped from 82 points to 48 pts and worst in the league just below the Canucks, but both teams were dropped in the lottery with an unprecedented three teams jumping ahead. They took Makar, the Nucks took Pettersson.

Colorado's rebuild was no longer than the Canucks decade in chaos but there tanks were well thought out. Teams don't drop 30+ points without effort. Now it could be Sakic knows math and decides earlier when to mail it in so they are more dramatic but the results speak for themselves, a core of drafted players. Even previous drafted players used in trades which speeded up a rebuild. Even using a previously tanked for player, Duchene for a trade that resulted in Byram Bowen later. H kept the core young and close together in age.

Just so those two aren't enough Pittsburgh went from 96 points which they were a playoff team for 11 consecutive seasons, traded off most of their star players dropped for 4 years out of the playoffs but drafted Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal in the first round and several in the 2nd round which were the first players in each the remaining rounds. 4 years out of the playoffs, drafted a core then 17 consecutive years of playoffs, 4 cup appearances and 3 cups. So a 4 year tank between 37 years of playoff appearances but the core from tanking.

Chicago, under Bill Wirtz a poorly run team, intentionally but once Rocky got it that changed, 2006 and 2007 they tanked and got Kane and Toews and combined with just being a lousy team stuck in the mushy middle for the previous 8 years they tanked. Got the remainder of their core and were in the playoffs for 8 years in a row with 3 cups. Now they are tanking again.

Lets look at Buffalo now, on the rise with loads of cap space, a team with just about all the players entering their prime and in probably their second rebuild since 2014, they tanked and now have more star players than they will be able to keep under the cap in a few more years but will have trade assets for more than a decade to keep them relevant. Just outside a playoff spot now but in reality maybe one or two players away from getting in and staying there for more than a decade.

New Jersey Devils, lost in the cup finals in 2018 and then two owners and stuck in the mushy middle, tank and got lucky in the lottery , and now are a powerhouse in the playoffs, they spent less time than the Canucks in the wilderness and now have youth, depth, cap space and are in the playoffs.

Even lowly Arizona, a team in more turmoil than the Canucks are ahead of this team with again so many picks, prospects and cap space it is impossible for them to not be a playoff team for years very soon. Over 38 million in cap space next year, over 70 prospects under 24 yrs old and 30 draft picks over the next 3 drafts most in the first 3 rounds with maybe more coming. And they are ahead of the Canucks too.

The Canuck situation is mostly from the worst GM in NHL history but also a lesson that was forgotten about not doing a proper rebuild, retool or building job period. Even Quinn tore it down for a season or two, Burke did too.

But teams that win cups ALL have tanked or been bad due to other circumstances but many have tanks that are easily seen.

And like the McDavid draft there is a very real possibility that very soon teams will be jettisoning players for a better draft spot or chance at Bedard. So teams like the Canucks were will look good and beat teams like Chicago or Columbus that made their decision to tank earlier once the math was worked out.

Canucks were out of the playoffs at US thanks giving and guess what all the teams that were still are.

Tampa tanked, I said that, and the part you are ignoring was that in those 3 years where they were at the bottom, they got 2 players in Stamkos and Hedman. That was it, they didn’t draft like their whole cast in those years, only two guys, and once they got those guys they started to build and get out of the tank and they did it mostly through trades, not draft.

Chicago if you look at their history, they have been drafting in the top 10 since 1999. They had keith, Seabrook, Buf, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell, Ruutu and a bunch more all drafted before they stated their more official rebuild that landed them Toews, and Kane. They didn’t do a rebuild and got all their depth, they sucked for a decade and got a ton of depth players and then did their rebuild. If you look at their “rebuild” years where they got Kane and Toews, they were the only players they got through the draft those years.

Like all the teams you guys claim as like the model for rebuilding didn’t get all their pieces through the draft in their actual rebuild years. Yes they all had some down years post the rebuild years but those years are down years by accident, not on purpose.

The idea that you can rebuild now and get a whole new core of like 4-5 players can happen if you decide to tank over a period of like 5-7 years. It’s super rare to have teams unearth like 2 core players in one draft.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Okkidoki.

Now.

Now we get to the real stuff. I think almost all of us can agree that this has not been a smooth first year for the new management team.

Dysfunction at pretty much all levels.

- Extending more or less the entire team from last year, pretty much making every single player extended close to untradeable in the process.
- The Doerrie mess
- Handling of Boudreau made news in mainstream papers in Finland, that wont write about the NHL unless Laine says something provocative
- Pearson's injury going from something minor to year ending and potentially career threatening
- Lekkerimäki underperforming, suffering a concussion...
- Weird prepared statements with at times blatant and obvious lies...
- Communication breakdowns...

But NOW...

Now we are in true make or break moment for this group.

They NEED to hit a number of homeruns between now and the trade deadline to have any hope of making this quick turnaround work. They NEED to get a fantastic player back for Bo Horvat. RD or a C. Add a draft pick in the trade if you must. But you NEED to get a core piece back who is ready to play right now.

Move one of the bloated winger contracts. Miller or Boeser, one has to go. Move our 1st rounder (lottery protected) if you must, but now the time for excuses is over. Create the cap space you need to mould this team.

This is where they show who they are. Most of the circus will be forgotten very fast if they now build the foundation of a contender for next year.

 

[Breakers]

We've done the "Bleeding picks" style of asset management and look where it got us.

so anybody who justifies trading picks or thinks picks sucks right now is wrong, and it isn't debatable
and the evidence is irrefutable

 

[theguardianII]

I wonder if Washington would consider a Miller for Mantha trade? Mantha has one more year at 5.7 mil but could be a valuable trade asset if he doesn't work out here or is simply part of a bigger "build" plan.

Washington also has to consider that Backstrom isn't out of the woods yet, but regardless they will have the cap space for Miller's contract and will want to keep trying to extend their playoff window as long as Ovy is there.

IMO a simply one for one or maybe even adding a 7th rnd pick or prospect to get that deal done and contract off the books

 

[arttk]

We've done the "Bleeding picks" style of asset management and look where it got us.

so anybody who justifies trading picks or thinks picks sucks right now is wrong, and it isn't debatable
and the evidence is irrefutable

Literally nobody is advocating for that

 

[Nucker101]

I wonder if Washington would consider a Miller for Mantha trade? Mantha has one more year at 5.7 mil but could be a valuable trade asset if he doesn't work out here or is simply part of a bigger "build" plan.

Washington also has to consider that Backstrom isn't out of the woods yet, but regardless they will have the cap space for Miller's contract and will want to keep trying to extend their playoff window as long as Ovy is there.

IMO a simply one for one or maybe even adding a 7th rnd pick or prospect to get that deal done and contract off the books

I don't think this management group has any plans to trade Miller this season or summer

 

[arttk]

Where are the Canucks supposed to get their top defensman and centres?

They're always easy to find through free agency and trades right?

Its really not as simple as you say to just turn a team around in a single off-season.

I think this teams direction has broken a lot of fans perspectives as well.

Like people want to use NJ as an example, guess what, outside of Severson their whole blue line was acquired via FA and trade.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Literally nobody is advocating for that

Dont they have to, to maximise their chances of contending next year and the year after?

 

[arttk]

Dont they have to, to maximise their chances of contending next year and the year after?

I don’t think so. They have always said they need to be a playoff team first before being a contender. I don’t think they operate with the same principles as Benning where they want to throw asset away just to get to a playoff team. If that was the case you would have seen them do that this year. Instead we are looking at them shutting players down and probably trading a bunch away (TBD) and really getting that top pick.

I did a breakdown comparing our hypothetical roster next year vs the Kings roster this year. I don’t see why you guys think we need to trade away everything to get there. It seems fairly doable and all it requires is *good* scouting. Even when I say that I don’t think I am implying they will be able to get it done. It’s more like well we will have a better grasp at the end of the TDL and an even better grasp at the off-season.

My message has been consistent, I’ll wait till the off-season. And I’ve always given you guys a breakdown why I think you can be a playoff team without really expending that much assets.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don’t think so. They have always said they need to be a playoff team first before being a contender. I don’t think they operate with the same principles as Benning where they want to throw asset away just to get to a playoff team. If that was the case you would have seen them do that this year. Instead we are looking at them shutting players down and probably trading a bunch away (TBD) and really getting that top pick.

I did a breakdown comparing our hypothetical roster next year vs the Kings roster this year. I don’t see why you guys think we need to trade away everything to get there. It seems fairly doable and all it requires is *good* scouting. Even when I say that I don’t think I am implying they will be able to get it done. It’s more like well we will have a better grasp at the end of the TDL and an even better grasp at the off-season.

My message has been consistent, I’ll wait till the off-season. And I’ve always given you guys a breakdown why I think you can be a playoff team without really expending that much assets.

I disagree with you on this.

If they intend to go for it they need to actually go for it.