Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[RobertKron]

Allvin/Rutherford not for a year or longer, Tocchet/Allvin is the reality now.

Tocchet wants players he can dominate.

How can anyone expect the same results of last year when the team changes 8 players.

Out are the Russians, Zadorov, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev and Podkolzin, defenceman Cole, forwards 24pt Lafferty and late pick up Lindholm

In are Debrusk, Sprong, Deharnais, Heinen, Raty and Forbort

ONE injured forward, Joshua ONE injured goalie, Demko but then Demko was injured for months last year.

Joshua might not be the same with all the treatments needed to fight a serious cancer, he could be out a long time.

For me there is no panic in this season because I think this season will be a repeat of 2016 after a surprising divisional winning 2015.

I listened to a radio show that stated 11 points for the month would be a good result, 11 points would be a disaster but now as the games are played 11 points might be good after all.

Cap management? Well almost 8 million is sitting out combined with the OEL buyout counted. OEL would look pretty good on this group right now his 7.25 mil could have easily fit and ended this year. Think of it Hughes - Hronek, Myers - OEL, Soucy - Forbort/Deharnais, IMO a better defence and 12 mil in cap space next year with JUST OEL coming off the books. Combine with the draft picks traded and suddenly Marner is affordable. Oh well, might as well post a different "what if" history is for learning so the same mistakes aren't repeated. Or for betting

This is a Tocchet (Keenan) team. I do think EP's days are numbered under Tocchet.

So if it comes down to this Tocchet team.
Who goes Tocchet or EP? And Sprong and Deharnais and Karlsson and Willander and Lettermaki and all the other younger skill guys that aren't boards or strictly defence first guys?

IMO Tocchet's "vision" of a team player does not appear to have any flexibility, perfection is always desired but rarely achieved so that is when coaching comes in, form lines, strengths and weaknesses. Don't "force" players to conform to a "vision".

I noticed the Canucks don't have much of the dressing room stuff on Prime, none at all. And the behind the scenes stuff is missing if it was ever there. Didn't they used to have dressing room shots/clips before.

At a guess, as things stand now, they will get between 84 and 90 pts this year, they just don't have the goal scoring or defence depth even if Demko comes back for a few months. Maybe they are saving him until missing the playoffs is imminent before playing him due to an expected short shelf life.

cool

 

[theguardianII]

There might be some internal pressure starting to blow off.

Miller is clearly a Tocchet guy in his style of play.
Pettersson not so much. This can be stated if only looking at EP's point totals.
Under Green, whose system was similar to Tocchet's, EP had slumps in scoring but once Bruce got here his scoring soared and did for all of Bruce's time here.
Bruce never had the defence depth of skill level that either Green or Tocchet had but then EP was over a 100 pt player.

The differences in systems or coaching styles may point to EP's play and production.

They say a rough practice is good, but between the supposed two of the lynch pins of offence on the team? Really?

How often has anyone ever heard of two stars on a team duking it out?

Rumors have been out for awhile of a "distance" between Miller and EP and there is nothing that says teammates need to be friends but stars with this much distaste might be too much and maybe a signal of internal strife.

If management had to make a choice between EP and Miller which way do you think they would go? What if EP decides he isn't happy in the fish bowl or doesn't or can't play Tocchet's stringent style and wants out? Allvin would not make that public but signs point to EP not being thrilled.

IMO they will do nothing and hope nothing becomes too public, hoping that things work out in their favour. Maybe other team's start inquiring about availability.

If push comes to shove I think Allvin has already made his position clear, Miller and Tocchet.

Tocchet talks alot about changing player's games, how they play. Well some players are just not built to play his way mentally.
EP was NEVER a boards guys, forechecker first guy a dump and chase guy that isn't how he got to be in the first round of the draft. EP doesn't laugh or smile or look like he is having fun playing and the fish bowl that is Vancouver isn't taking the magnifying glass off him.

Look back at EP's production under Green, Bruce and Tocchet. Two coaches with similar styles in Green and Tocchet and under Bruce. When Bruce got here even with Kuz being a rookie and no decent line mate EP was almost 2 pts per game.

EP doesn't have enough of a record to push the team in a direction. Crosby got a coach fired because of difference in styles, that was/got very public, EP hasn't the runway for that and won't get it under Tocchet's tutelage.

With no animosity towards EP I think a different city could relieve the pressure on him, right now he is a flunky to Miller and Tocchet. Tocchet, paraphrasing here, "I changed Garland's game" really? How? When? In the 4 years he never coached Garland?And even though Garland is quite a dynamic player this season his point totals are mediocre at best.

I am not saying running EP out of town should be done but there is pressure building. Fighting in practice between stars is no small thing and should not be buried as "it's normal, it's good" maybe between "energy guys, 3rd/4th liners, 6/7 dmen fighting for a job but not the guys at the top of the pedestal. It is more than just not a good look, it reveals internal pressure.
The room has been under review before with Miller, there was a supposed difference between Horvat and Miller too.

Allvin has not been stellar either. True he ahs made some outstanding signing of highly desired players but then gave away some of the farm to rid the team of them. Maybe signing Petey was another mistake. Rumoured trade with Carolina and other teams, pushing for a solution prior to the TDL for the good of the team to sign earlier. EP did a "team" decision but maybe it was his mistake too. Once committed Tocchet has immense power on him. There might be too much of alpha stuff happening now.
Maybe too much has passed for there to be a wait and see for a change in EP's play. How many seasons would about right before a decision if it is negative, how many games? There is getting close to a season's worth of games now.

The season is still early, things can change, but they can change both ways although it is hard to see how they could get worse for Petey. The "shows" are still burying this a quick as possible, some of them anyway but this dust up is very significant regardless of what the players say.

This whole Tocchet/Miller thing reminds me a lot of Messier/Keenan stuff.

 

[ephmrl]

This whole Tocchet/Miller thing reminds me a lot of Messier/Keenan stuff.

Best post of all time. You've outdone yourself with this one.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Best post of all time. You've outdone yourself with this one.

It's not even close to that level of toxic.

Keenan and Messier were out watching basketball games and having dinner together, while also conducting closed-door private meetings about the state of the team.

 

[ephmrl]

It's not even close to that level of toxic.

Keenan and Messier were out watching basketball games and having dinner together, while also conducting closed-door private meetings about the state of the team.

Miller and Tocchet are incredibly well regarded by the fan base. Tocchet just won a Jack Adams and Miller will go down as one of the best centers to wear a Canucks uniform. It’s one of the worst comparisons I’ve ever seen on these boards.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Miller and Tocchet are incredibly well regarded by the fan base. Tocchet just won a Jack Adams and Miller will go down as one of the best centers to wear a Canucks uniform. It’s one of the worst comparisons I’ve ever seen on these boards.

I'm inclined to agree, simply because it's understating just how toxic Keenan/Messier were for this organization.

Go watch old videos/news articles about how the team treated Linden as soon as Keenan was brought on board. Iron Mike was in the press publicly saying that Linden was playing at a 50% commit level and that he didn't give a shit about the team. Messier was doing interviews about how he is the Captain and now has to be the leader in the room, and the rest of the team need to block out any distractions.





It was like if your girlfriend started dating someone else before you had moved out, and then went on social media bragging about how annoying it was that you were still around.

 

[theguardianII]

It's not even close to that level of toxic.

But there is a level.

Name all the players that the team has jettisoned where it cost the team, retention, buyouts, traded picks or just not resigned or signed in other cities for either the same money or just lightly more.

Are ANY of them what you could call Tocchet guys, boards guys, dump and chase guys or not Russians.

Why think or believe Pettersson is a Tocchet guy? he has much more in common with most of those jettisoned guys

And now rumblings of a Miller, Pettersson conflict in the room. Just like there was a Horvat Miller conflict rumour and Horvat is gone.

Don't get me wrong, Miller is IMO a great player to have for the playoffs, big ego, good skills and high expectations to drag those around him up but he can be too much sand paper.
He is a Tocchet guy, I thought at first they might bang heads but it seems they are more joined at the hip now. Maybe the construct of the team and the Tocchet/Miller thing is why Miller is showing frustration with Pettersson or is it just the chasm between is growing.

Tocchet critiquing Pettersson in public and now Miller dusting it up with Pettersson no doubt challenging his manhood and then Tocchet playing it down as normal and he liked it? With the highest paid player in Canucks history?

And posters stick their heads in the ground?
"All is good in lala land" "Look boys will be boys"

And then what the players or rather what EP says to the media is gospel? When was the last time anyone heard things like "I can't believe we lost to a team like that", "that is a mickey mouse operation", "If they had a good goalie they could be a good team"?

When Messier/Keenan got Linden traded how did Keenan facilitate that? Rotating line mates, changes is ice time, calling out in public and for the most part Messier not helping in interviews. Coaches can make players look good or bad and can put the magnifying glass on them with public comments.

Just to clarify my position on Messier and Keenan. I thought it was ..... well it evolved.

Messier was a waste of time and money but the team did need to be re-whatevered at the time and it cleared the way and made possible for the Canucks to get the twins. That and a very bold Burke, the guy that replaced Keenan

This team if it does what I think will happen, a repeat of 2016 after 2015, could be so lucky as to get two HoF players in one draft. Whomever creates the circumstances will not make for happy fans in the "now".

 

[RobertKron]

There might be some internal pressure starting to blow off.

Miller is clearly a Tocchet guy in his style of play.
Pettersson not so much. This can be stated if only looking at EP's point totals.
Under Green, whose system was similar to Tocchet's, EP had slumps in scoring but once Bruce got here his scoring soared and did for all of Bruce's time here.
Bruce never had the defence depth of skill level that either Green or Tocchet had but then EP was over a 100 pt player.

The differences in systems or coaching styles may point to EP's play and production.

They say a rough practice is good, but between the supposed two of the lynch pins of offence on the team? Really?

How often has anyone ever heard of two stars on a team duking it out?

Rumors have been out for awhile of a "distance" between Miller and EP and there is nothing that says teammates need to be friends but stars with this much distaste might be too much and maybe a signal of internal strife.

If management had to make a choice between EP and Miller which way do you think they would go? What if EP decides he isn't happy in the fish bowl or doesn't or can't play Tocchet's stringent style and wants out? Allvin would not make that public but signs point to EP not being thrilled.

IMO they will do nothing and hope nothing becomes too public, hoping that things work out in their favour. Maybe other team's start inquiring about availability.

If push comes to shove I think Allvin has already made his position clear, Miller and Tocchet.

Tocchet talks alot about changing player's games, how they play. Well some players are just not built to play his way mentally.
EP was NEVER a boards guys, forechecker first guy a dump and chase guy that isn't how he got to be in the first round of the playoffs. EP doesn't laugh or smile or look like he is having fun playing and the fish bowl that is Vancouver isn't taking the magnifying glass off him.

Look back at EP's production under Green, Bruce and Tocchet. Two coaches with similar styles in Green and Tocchet and under Bruce. When Bruce got here even with Kuz being a rookie and no decent line mate EP was almost 2 pts per game.

EP doesn't have enough of a record to push the team in a direction. Crosby got a coach fired because of difference in styles, that was/got very public, EP hasn't the runway for that and won't get it under Tocchet's tutelage.

With no animosity towards EP I think a different city could relieve the pressure on him, right now he is a flunky to Miller and Tocchet. Tocchet, paraphrasing here, "I changed Garland's game" really? How? When? In the 4 years he never coached Garland?And even though Garland is quite a dynamic player this season his point totals are mediocre at best.

I am not saying running EP out of town should be done but there is pressure building. Fighting in practice between stars is no small thing and should not be buried as "it's normal, it's good" maybe between "energy guys, 3rd/4th liners, 6/7 dmen fighting for a job but not the guys at the top of the pedestal. It is more than just not a good look, it reveals internal pressure.
The room has been under review before with Miller, there was a supposed difference between Horvat and Miller too.

Allvin has not been stellar either. True he ahs made some outstanding signing of highly desired players but then gave away some of the farm to rid the team of them. Maybe signing Petey was another mistake. Rumoured trade with Carolina and other teams, pushing for a solution prior to the TDL for the good of the team to sign earlier. EP did a "team" decision but maybe it was his mistake too. Once committed Tocchet has immense power on him. There might be too much of alpha stuff happening now.
Maybe too much has passed for there to be a wait and see for a change in EP's play. How many seasons would about right before a decision if it is negative, how many games? There is getting close to a season's worth of games now.

The season is still early, things can change, but they can change both ways although it is hard to see how they could get worse for Petey. The "shows" are still burying this a quick as possible, some of them anyway but this dust up is very significant regardless of what the players say.

This whole Tocchet/Miller thing reminds me a lot of Messier/Keenan stuff.

Well said.

Have we considered that Miller might have a space laser?

 

[Hoglander]

Miller/Tocchet is now like Messier/Keenan?

What is this nonsense? Messier is the most hated Canuck of all time, meanwhile fans are praising Miller by chanting his name at games. lol, what planet does guardian live on??