Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[RobertKron]

My point isn’t that the Wild were a better team than the Canucks, only that they matched up very well against the Canucks and the regular season proved this. And my point isn’t that the Canucks with “competent goaltending” couldn’t beat the Wild because I believe they could. My point is that the Canucks “with competent goaltending” did not have a shot at the cup although it did feel that way during the Wild series.

Again, the Ducks and Devils were basically playing the Wild’s system but on another level entirely. And sure, the Ducks may have captured lightning in a bottle, but they were playing the trap to perfection during that run and getting great goaltending. This is very clearly shown by their utterance dominance against the west during their playoff run. And they took the Devils, who I think you acknowledge as being a great team, to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. So ya, do I think it was likely that an offensive team in the dead puck era with “competent goaltending” was going to be able to beat two of the best trapping teams ever in back to back series? Ya, no chance. Defense won out time and time again during the dead puck era which is why it was the dead puck era.

Don't disagree in the least, but the one wildcard in all of that is that in any given sequence of plays, Bertuzzi could basically put your top pairing out of the playoffs with the way he was running around. I don't know that I can think of a more justifiably physically intimidating player than Bertuzzi that spring. He was like 250lbs with wheels, was on the ice a lot, and legitimately did not care at all about anyone else's safety - just playing absolutely reckless hockey.

 

[Hit the post]

Don't disagree in the least, but the one wildcard in all of that is that in any given sequence of plays, Bertuzzi could basically put your top pairing out of the playoffs with the way he was running around. I don't know that I can think of a more justifiably physically intimidating player than Bertuzzi that spring. He was like 250lbs with wheels, was on the ice a lot, and legitimately did not care at all about anyone else's safety - just playing absolutely reckless hockey.

..and any space he could create for perhaps the most lethal sniper in the league for a period of time (Naslund), made both of the more effective.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Y'all think we will add any defensive depth this season?

Does management see it as a "nice to have" or a "need to have?"

We'd have to give up some combo of Beauvillier, Garland, Podkolzin and/or future draft picks.

We're in a place where a lot of our core could be having their peak seasons. Not sure we have time to wait for Willander or Pettersson.

 

[RobertKron]

..and any space he could create for perhaps the most lethal sniper in the league for a period of time (Naslund), made both of the more effective.

Tons of space out there when everyone is waiting for a stretcher to be wheeled off.

I can't remember if it was 03 or maybe the 02 series after the hit on Chelios, but I distinctly remember watching a game and kind of zooming out for a moment and thinking "oh f***, this guy might literally kill someone out there." I genuinely can't think of a scarier player to go up against as a defenseman.

 

[God]

Yeah in 2002 Bertuzzi was basically the best player in the world. Someone did a series of "Best NHL player in xxxx year" series on the polls forum and it's kind of a joke that Bertuzzi wasn't even an option, much less top 3 for 01/02-02/03. Sure, Naslund was more skilled and produced more, but Bert went on an absolute heater after his 10 game suspension for leaving the bench to fight (IIRC) and basically didn't stop until his stupid whiteboard-worthy comment in the Minnesota series. That reputation carried him so that we could get Luongo, too.

 

[RobertKron]

Yeah in 2002 Bertuzzi was basically the best player in the world. Someone did a series of "Best NHL player in xxxx year" series on the polls forum and it's kind of a joke that Bertuzzi wasn't even an option, much less top 3 for 01/02-02/03. Sure, Naslund was more skilled and produced more, but Bert went on an absolute heater after his 10 game suspension for leaving the bench to fight (IIRC) and basically didn't stop until his stupid whiteboard-worthy comment in the Minnesota series. That reputation carried him so that we could get Luongo, too.

The funny thing is that with the post-lockout obstruction and hooking/holding crackdown, Bertuzzi should have been literally f***ing unstoppable, but he was just a shell of his former self by then.

I was legitimately upset at the Luongo trade for a second because I was convinced that Bertuzzi would get his head on straight and should have been able to basically score at will.

 

[F A N]

I'm not sure what the list of bad goalies years before has to do with anything.

And yeah, there were incredibly zealous Cloutier defenders. The guy was the biggest talking point on the roster for nearly 5 years and THREE STRAIGHT 30 WIN SEASONS! was a hilarious precursor to THREE STRAIGHT CALDER FINALISTS! as an argument people screamed at the top of their lungs when they were ignoring all logic and reason.

I don't recall there being incredibly zealous Cloutier defenders. I seem to many of us thinking we need an elite goaltender to win.

I don't see how praising Cloutier for three straight 30 win seasons is the equivalent of praising drafting three straight Calder finalists. I mean are you saying we are overrating the drafting of Boeser, Petey, and Hughes?

Cloutier was a journeyman backup-level goalie who put up the same sort of numbers as journeyman backups like Hedberg/Essensa/Skudra/Auld did on those teams.

He was not a journeyman backup at the time of the trade. He was traded by NYR as part of trade that netted them the 4th overall pick. Cloutier was then traded to the Canucks (ironically because he was beaten out by former goalie of the future Kevin Weekes).

And there were absolutely other options. Burke passed on trading for Khabibulin to target Cloutier, for starters. Ed Belfour was available in free agency in 2002. We had both Sean Burke and Arturs Irbe and let them go. Even a journeyman starter like a Mike Dunham or a Chris Osgood would have been preferable.

Burke went with a younger goaltender. The mistake was not paying a 2nd round pick for Kipper or Vokoun.

 

[RobertKron]

I don't recall there being incredibly zealous Cloutier defenders. I seem to many of us thinking we need an elite goaltender to win.

There was definitely a segment of fans who f***ing loved Cloutier because he was a battler and whatnot. Also, that early viral Salo video got a lot of people all fired up. He was a pretty polarizing player.

 

[Hodgy]

Tons of space out there when everyone is waiting for a stretcher to be wheeled off.

I can't remember if it was 03 or maybe the 02 series after the hit on Chelios, but I distinctly remember watching a game and kind of zooming out for a moment and thinking "oh f***, this guy might literally kill someone out there." I genuinely can't think of a scarier player to go up against as a defenseman.

I distinctly remember watching over and over again the Bertuzzi hit on Chelios in high school with a friend and we both couldn’t understand how Chelios got up after that hit. That was monstrous and mean, and it looked like it should have killed old man Chelios.

Gotta hand it to Chelios though, he played the villain so well. I recall he was a star of the game in one of the playoff games in Vancouver, and as an away player, you never come out. But Chelios came out with a grin on his face and took a wide loop around GM Place as the fans booed him. I don’t say this lightly, but what a beauty.

I remember thinking it was weird that the only highlight packages of cloutier when we acquired him were of his fights and not any great saves.

 

[MS]

I don't recall there being incredibly zealous Cloutier defenders. I seem to many of us thinking we need an elite goaltender to win.

I don't see how praising Cloutier for three straight 30 win seasons is the equivalent of praising drafting three straight Calder finalists. I mean are you saying we are overrating the drafting of Boeser, Petey, and Hughes?

There were absolutely zealous Cloutier defenders. Before Jim Benning happened, the pro/anti-Cloutier thing was one of the most divisive fan issues I can remember. And the pro-Cloutier crowd was freaking *aggressive* about being pro-Cloutier.

And the THREE STRAIGHT 30 WINS thing was exactly the same. Getting 30 wins for a powerhouse team didn't remotely mean that Dan Cloutier was a good goalie (like, hell, Roman Turek once won 40 games) any more than having 3 good draft picks meant that Jim Benning wasn't an absolute apocalypse as an NHL GM.

Alex Auld was a journeyman backup. When Dan Cloutier got hurt ... Alex Auld promptly won 30 games behind a worse version of those WCE-era teams.

He was not a journeyman backup at the time of the trade. He was traded by NYR as part of trade that netted them the 4th overall pick. Cloutier was then traded to the Canucks (ironically because he was beaten out by former goalie of the future Kevin Weekes).

His level of play never exceeded 'journeyman backup'.

This was back in the era where being a Ron Hextall/Billy Smith-type 'fighting goalie' was deemed to be a great thing for some reason, and he kept getting opportunities he didn't deserve as a result.

Burke went with a younger goaltender. The mistake was not paying a 2nd round pick for Kipper or Vokoun.

Yes, those were also mistakes.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I distinctly remember watching over and over again the Bertuzzi hit on Chelios in high school with a friend and we both couldn’t understand how Chelios got up after that hit. That was monstrous and mean, and it looked like it should have killed old man Chelios.

I am now the same age as Chelios was in that clip and I think I would have been in bed for a month afterwards.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I don't recall there being incredibly zealous Cloutier defenders. I seem to many of us thinking we need an elite goaltender to win.

You're either lying or are starting to suffer from early onset dementia.

I remember the photoshops, the long, long, longggggggggggggggg arguments, CDC crashing after Cloutier flubbed again, etc.

He was incredibly polarizing.

I don't see how praising Cloutier for three straight 30 win seasons is the equivalent of praising drafting three straight Calder finalists. I mean are you saying we are overrating the drafting of Boeser, Petey, and Hughes?

It's casual fan Andy logic that ignores a lot of details to point at one shining point as though it's proof of f***ing anything besides selective reasoning.

"3 30 win seasons!" ---> propped up by the highest scoring offense, with so-so underlying numbers, being injury-prone, etc. while guys like Brodeur were doing far better.

"3 Calder Finalists!" ---> by being the drizzling shits, with a GM who actively fought not to draft one of those players, and not being a complete imbecile when the obvious pick (Hughes) presented itself.

He was not a journeyman backup at the time of the trade. He was traded by NYR as part of trade that netted them the 4th overall pick. Cloutier was then traded to the Canucks (ironically because he was beaten out by former goalie of the future Kevin Weekes).

His first full season as a pro was in the AHL where he posted a losing record and unfavorable numbers.

He went from posting okay numbers as a backup behind Richter to getting ventilated in Tampa. He was on his way out of the league before Marc Crawford got caught up in a bad romance with him.

Burke went with a younger goaltender. The mistake was not paying a 2nd round pick for Kipper or Vokoun.

Yeah, once again, Burke is a horrible judge of goaltending talent. It's no coincidence his only sustained success has 2 goalies in their prime with 2 HOF defensemen in front of them (Giggy, Bryz, Niedermeyer and Pronger)

 

[MS]

There was definitely a segment of fans who f***ing loved Cloutier because he was a battler and whatnot. Also, that early viral Salo video got a lot of people all fired up. He was a pretty polarizing player.

100%

Like I said just previously, this was still during the NHL goon era and playing like Ron Hextall or Billy Smith was this big awesome thing to a lot of people. Cloutier got massive mileage out of tuning Tommy Salo in a fight and having a likeable Bieksa-type personality.

The split on Cloutier was really defined and really similar similar to how Benning split the fanbase, and I'd bet that most of the pro-Cloutier crowd was also pro-Benning.

 

[RobertKron]

100%

Like I said just previously, this was still during the NHL goon era and playing like Ron Hextall or Billy Smith was this big awesome thing to a lot of people. Cloutier got massive mileage out of tuning Tommy Salo in a fight and having a likeable Bieksa-type personality.

The split on Cloutier was really defined and really similar similar to how Benning split the fanbase, and I'd bet that most of the pro-Cloutier crowd was also pro-Benning.

Fans at the time loved volatile goalies, and really just volatile players in general. The Rock 'em Sock 'em hype kind of reached its peak around then, and I believe the Bertuzzi incident was probably a big contributor to calming down some of that excitement. Everyone kind of caught the car there and realized maybe we don't want to see someone die on the ice.

Snow was another mediocre goalie who was quite popular here in part due to this.

Cloutier kicked Tim Connolly directly in the head, and only got 4 games for it. That's f***ing bonkers.

 

[Ernie]

The split on Cloutier was really defined and really similar similar to how Benning split the fanbase, and I'd bet that most of the pro-Cloutier crowd was also pro-Benning.

It seemed like Cloutier would make an amazing save every game on what looked to be an automatic goal. And then he'd let in a soft goal every game, too, and in the playoffs, like 2 soft goals every game.

Those saves made people think that he was a great goaltender, and that if he could just figure out how to stop letting soft goals, he'd be a top 5 goalie. That obviously never happened. He was a very athletic goalie compared to a lot of butterfly goalies with massive amounts of padding at the time.

It's tempting to say that he had poor positioning, and that's why he let in soft goals, as well as why he needed to make these athletic saves, which is often a side effect. But that ignores just how bad some of the soft goals really were. The Lidstrom goal is the most obvious but it really seemed like he just wasn't paying attention at times. It was very strange.

 

[RobertKron]

It seemed like Cloutier would make an amazing save every game on what looked to be an automatic goal. And then he'd let in a soft goal every game, too, and in the playoffs, like 2 soft goals every game.

Those saves made people think that he was a great goaltender, and that if he could just figure out how to stop letting soft goals, he'd be a top 5 goalie. That obviously never happened. He was a very athletic goalie compared to a lot of butterfly goalies with massive amounts of padding at the time.

It's tempting to say that he had poor positioning, and that's why he let in soft goals, as well as why he needed to make these athletic saves, which is often a side effect. But that ignores just how bad some of the soft goals really were. The Lidstrom goal is the most obvious but it really seemed like he just wasn't paying attention at times. It was very strange.

IIRC, he was basically a medium-sized goalie with normal-sized gear playing a hybrid style into an era where teams' entire systems were becoming designed around big-equipment, blocking-style butterfly robots. Not many "mere mortal" goalies were able to do that.

 

[Hit the post]

It seemed like Cloutier would make an amazing save every game on what looked to be an automatic goal. And then he'd let in a soft goal every game, too, and in the playoffs, like 2 soft goals every game.

Those saves made people think that he was a great goaltender, and that if he could just figure out how to stop letting soft goals, he'd be a top 5 goalie. That obviously never happened. He was a very athletic goalie compared to a lot of butterfly goalies with massive amounts of padding at the time.

It's tempting to say that he had poor positioning, and that's why he let in soft goals, as well as why he needed to make these athletic saves, which is often a side effect. But that ignores just how bad some of the soft goals really were. The Lidstrom goal is the most obvious but it really seemed like he just wasn't paying attention at times. It was very strange.

All the more strange in the Canucks hardly played a "suffocating type of defense" during the Crawford days. At least from my recollection as I've tried to block out alot of that stuff from my memory.

 

[Hit the post]

Yeah, once again, Burke is a horrible judge of goaltending talent. It's no coincidence his only sustained success has 2 goalies in their prime with 2 HOF defensemen in front of them (Giggy, Bryz, Niedermeyer and Pronger)

Burke, despite his achilles heel being goalies, did make some really shrewd moves. Not the least of which was unloading Fedorov (who's best days were behind him) thus freeing up alot of cap space. Also acquired the third leg on the blueliner crew - Beauchemin. Granted, he was no Pronger or Neidermayer but those two were/are legit HHOFers. He was STILL good enough the Ducks could effectively use mainly three defensemen the entire game (with some time split I *think* divided between who else they had left on the roster.

 

[Ernie]

IIRC, he was basically a medium-sized goalie with normal-sized gear playing a hybrid style into an era where teams' entire systems were becoming designed around big-equipment, blocking-style butterfly robots. Not many "mere mortal" goalies were able to do that.

I mean sure? He definitely relied on his athleticism, and perhaps he wouldn't have survived long in the league regardless. But the quality of shots he was letting in had nothing to do with technique - he should have been able to track them just fine, given how he could snag a puck out of mid air laterally across the net. The butterfly style was already pretty popularized by Patrick Roy, but the "big pads" thing was just kinda getting started, Giguere's run to the finals was a notable inflection point. And plenty of other goalies did fine playing the hybrid style still, Brodeur continued to put up good numbers right through that period.

It definitely wasn't just his style, it was almost like something turned off in his brain.

 

[RobertKron]

I mean sure? He definitely relied on his athleticism, and perhaps he wouldn't have survived long in the league regardless. But the quality of shots he was letting in had nothing to do with technique - he should have been able to track them just fine, given how he could snag a puck out of mid air laterally across the net. The butterfly style was already pretty popularized by Patrick Roy, but the "big pads" thing was just kinda getting started, Giguere's run to the finals was a notable inflection point. And plenty of other goalies did fine playing the hybrid style still, Brodeur continued to put up good numbers right through that period.

It definitely wasn't just his style, it was almost like something turned off in his brain.

The big pads stuff wasn't just getting started - it was already going in the 90s. Garth Snow, for example, was a notable gigantic gear guy in the mid-late 90s with the Flyers, or even here in the late 90s with the Canucks. Goalies like Roy ran huge sweaters and extra bulky gear. Oversized pants were pretty common. By the summer of Giguere's run in 03, the league had already started introducing more rules to limit goalie equipment sizes and try to reel things in.

Yes, obviously guys like Brodeur or Roloson had success, but Cloutier obviously wasn't near as talented as those guys. He played a reactionary style that made him small in the net leading to poor efficiency of movement, and that made him prone to being quite leaky at a time when sticks were getting better and lighter, and releases were getting quicker and more deceptive.

The Lidstrom goal is maybe a decent example of this: instead of blocking the puck, he just reaches out for it with his glove and stick, misjudges it, and just plain misses. He played a style that gave him greater odds of missing, and wasn't one of those guys who just never missed. Obviously there's more to it than just his style, but he also wasn't playing a style that set him up for success, and it's kind of weird that management didn't seem to pick up that it wasn't just isolated cases of bad luck.

 

[Ernie]

The Lidstrom goal is maybe a decent example of this: instead of blocking the puck, he just reaches out for it with his glove and stick, misjudges it, and just plain misses. He played a style that gave him greater odds of missing, and wasn't one of those guys who just never missed.

That's kind of my point though - he would make amazing reaction saves on the regular, then have a total "how did that possibly go in" brain fart. I suppose he wouldn't be doing either if he just blocked the net like the big pads goalies, but he had the skills to be a reaction goalie, just not the consistency.

 

[RobertKron]

That's kind of my point though - he would make amazing reaction saves on the regular, then have a total "how did that possibly go in" brain fart. I suppose he wouldn't be doing either if he just blocked the net like the big pads goalies, but he had the skills to be a reaction goalie, just not the consistency.

I think that's kind of the whole point of playing a low-movement blocking style. Even the best goalies miss sometimes, and if you're not one of the best (or even if you are), it's a good idea to give yourself less opportunities to miss.

The extreme example of this is watching pure standup goalies in small gear in the 80s and early 90s somewhat regularly whiff on unscreened muffin slapshots with a slow windup taken from out near the blueline. Those guys also made plenty of spectacular saves, but the style they played was just tempting fate.

Also, the sticks, and as a result the shots and releases, changing completely in the very late 90s and very early 00s cannot be overstated. That certainly played a role in weeding out all but the very best hybrid guys. The Synergy came out in 00, and the T-flex and other similar setups were filtering in by the very late 90s. I remember Hrudey mentioning once how earlier in his career, each team would have a couple guys where you really had to stay on your toes for their shot, and by his final year it was basically every single player on the ice.

 

[Ernie]

I think that's kind of the whole point of playing a low-movement blocking style. Even the best goalies miss sometimes, and if you're not one of the best (or even if you are), it's a good idea to give yourself less opportunities to miss.

The extreme example of this is watching pure standup goalies in small gear in the 80s and early 90s somewhat regularly whiff on unscreened muffin slapshots with a slow windup taken from out near the blueline. Those guys also made plenty of spectacular saves, but the style they played was just tempting fate.

I suppose, but I'm still defaulting to him having a screw loose, though maybe my thinking is influenced by things like this:

 

[RobertKron]

I suppose, but I'm still defaulting to him having a screw loose, though maybe my thinking is influenced by things like this:

View attachment 770602

I mean, yeah, he kicked a dude directly in the head on purpose.

 

[Nopefully]

I distinctly remember watching over and over again the Bertuzzi hit on Chelios in high school with a friend and we both couldn’t understand how Chelios got up after that hit. That was monstrous and mean, and it looked like it should have killed old man Chelios.

This was the most violent hit I’d ever seen in my life. I was astonished that he got up and kept playing