Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[AwesomeInTheory]

Crawford had this attachment to Cloutier. That's all I can think of (considering we actually got *TWO* picks & no salary back despite the Kings GM knowing Nonis *HAD* to move Cloutier.

Oh it was 100% that.

 

[F A N]

Crawford had this attachment to Cloutier. That's all I can think of (considering we actually got *TWO* picks & no salary back despite the Kings GM knowing Nonis *HAD* to move Cloutier.

To be fair, what were Crawford's options? Cloutier was actually a decent regular season goaltender (when healthy which was a problem). He was very good at stopping the first shot in the regular season (hit his chest type) and was able to provide consistent goaltending and string along some victories. Cloutier wasn't a top 10 goalie but he had a decent win/loss record in the regular season.

 

[Hit the post]

To be fair, what were Crawford's options? Cloutier was actually a decent regular season goaltender (when healthy which was a problem). He was very good at stopping the first shot in the regular season (hit his chest type) and was able to provide consistent goaltending and string along some victories. Cloutier wasn't a top 10 goalie but he had a decent win/loss record in the regular season.

As I said, the King's GM knew they held the cards as there's no way Nonis could've gone in with two goalies under contract with like what, 8-10 million in cap when the cap was like in the high thirties? (I'm going my memory so my numbers could be off heh). Granted, I'm going by hindsight but I'd imagine Nonis would've taken the deal had the Kings only offered some minor leagurer plus a late pick.

 

[F A N]

As I said, the King's GM knew they held the cards as there's no way Nonis could've gone in with two goalies under contract with like what, 8-10 million in cap when the cap was like in the high thirties? (I'm going my memory so my numbers could be off heh). Granted, I'm going by hindsight but I'd imagine Nonis would've taken the deal had the Kings only offered some minor leagurer plus a late pick.

That assumes no other teams were involved. LA was likely the best fit given Crawford but was LA the only team interested in Cloutier? Cloutier only had one year left at $2.5M. Hardly a big risk to take on for a team that believes in Cloutier.

 

[MS]

The NHL in 2006 was also a bunch of old-school GMs who had absolutely no idea how to navigate things as we went into the cap era, so there are a lot of really weird deals circa 2005-2008 that look laughable in hindsight.

Gillis/Gilman really figured out how to exploit that system and then the rest of the league started to catch up.

 

[Hit the post]

That assumes no other teams were involved. LA was likely the best fit given Crawford but was LA the only team interested in Cloutier? Cloutier only had one year left at $2.5M. Hardly a big risk to take on for a team that believes in Cloutier.

I just see much of a bidding war on a goalie the other GMs know the Canucks had to unload

 

[F A N]

The NHL in 2006 was also a bunch of old-school GMs who had absolutely no idea how to navigate things as we went into the cap era, so there are a lot of really weird deals circa 2005-2008 that look laughable in hindsight.

Gillis/Gilman really figured out how to exploit that system and then the rest of the league started to catch up.

Although in the context of Cloutier, Dean Lombardi (whose San Jose model Gillis spoke highly of) was the GM who acquired and signed Clouts to an extension.

 

[MS]

Although in the context of Cloutier, Dean Lombardi (whose San Jose model Gillis spoke highly of) was the GM who acquired and signed Clouts to an extension.

I think it was still generally the era where you 'traded for players' and the contract was a bit of an afterthought as opposed to today where everybody but Jim Benning understands that you're trading for an asset/contract package and the contract dictates the value of the asset.

Cloutier's contract relative to the cap in 2006 was the equivalent of a $5 million+ player now as a bad age-30 goalie coming off an injured/bad season. In 2023 you'd be paying to get rid of that asset, but in 2006 you still went and paid a premium to get 'the coach's guy'.

 

[I am toxic]

Why can really smart people be so dumb at times?

No, I am not talking about Tocchet bagskating the team before the road trip that led to the Philly Debacle. I'm sure Tocchet took my words here at HFCanucks to heart and won't do something so stupid again.

I am talking about Petey.

Tanev went almost a decade missing significant games due to injury until the so-called brain trust opted to uparmor him.

And voila - he misses far fewer games, like a handful for the 19-20, 20-21, and 21-22 seasons.

Well duh! He blocks a crap ton of shots, ya think he might need better protection than a winger?

So if you watch how other teams go after star players' wrists, and you see how vulnerable Petey is, it isn't rocket science to increase his wrist protection.

Will it impact his puck handling and shooting? Yup - but not as much as injured wrists and missing games will.

Honestly, what's the opposite of idiot-savant?

 

[MS]

Why can really smart people be so dumb at times?

No, I am not talking about Tocchet bagskating the team before the road trip that led to the Philly Debacle. I'm sure Tocchet took my words here at HFCanucks to heart and won't do something so stupid again.

I am talking about Petey.

Tanev went almost a decade missing significant games due to injury until the so-called brain trust opted to uparmor him.

And voila - he misses far fewer games, like a handful for the 19-20, 20-21, and 21-22 seasons.

Well duh! He blocks a crap ton of shots, ya think he might need better protection than a winger?

So if you watch how other teams go after star players' wrists, and you see how vulnerable Petey is, it isn't rocket science to increase his wrist protection.

Will it impact his puck handling and shooting? Yup - but not as much as injured wrists and missing games will.

Honestly, what's the opposite of idiot-savant?

Literally every player is like this.

If I was an NHL player, I'd wear every piece of protective equipment imaginable. But nobody does and you have things like Kevin Bieksa getting his Achilles slashed a 2nd time because he didn't decide to wear the protective socks that were available to him after it happened once.

I'm still amazed that someone hasn't designed a skate with some sort of protective barrier around the foot that collapses when a 100 MPH shot hits it, even if it's just a couple mms to add a bit of extra protection.

 

[Brookbank]

Nonis' tenure as GM was pretty average, but he did bring us Anson Carter, Willie Mitchell, Taylor Pyatt and, of course, the best 4th line C in the league: Tommi Santala.

Nonis tried to sneak a rebuild year in without ownership noticing. That's where all those bad players came in. And he rejected the Brad Richards trade around the same time. He saved the 2011 team from being broken up before it started.

You can bust Nonis's balls for the Carney, Smolinski, Norenen, Sanderson, Brown, Rucinsky deadline deals. But he was going all in on the WCE team.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Honestly, what's the opposite of idiot-savant?

Jim Benning.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Nonis tried to sneak a rebuild year in without ownership noticing. That's where all those bad players came in. And he rejected the Brad Richards trade around the same time. He saved the 2011 team from being broken up before it started.

You can bust Nonis's balls for the Carney, Smolinski, Norenen, Sanderson, Brown, Rucinsky deadline deals. But he was going all in on the WCE team.

His first season was trying to give the WCE one last hurrah.

Then he moved on with the Luongo-era. But as you said, he blocked the Richards trade (thank god.)

The Luongo deal, hiring AV (granted, he was in the system already), and blocking the Richards trade are probably the 3 biggest things he did during his tenure. I'd also rate Anson Carter signing because it gave the Sedins a legit linemate and showcased that they could actually do shit with a competent linemate and not Trent Klatt or whatever.

 

[HighAndTight]

To be fair, what were Crawford's options? Cloutier was actually a decent regular season goaltender (when healthy which was a problem). He was very good at stopping the first shot in the regular season (hit his chest type) and was able to provide consistent goaltending and string along some victories. Cloutier wasn't a top 10 goalie but he had a decent win/loss record in the regular season.

Well see thats the thing. When we had those decent 3 years, only 2 goalies had more regular season wins then Cloutier. Iirc it was Brodeur and Roy.



Now onto some posts I've seen in this thread. I'm sorry but I can't give Nonis more credit when it comes to the Luongo deal then, thanks for not messing this one up.

Keenan was forced by FLA ownership to move Luongo. He wasn't trading him within the conference unless the deal was for Jumbo Joe which wasn't going to happen.

Nonis lucked out that we were out of conference, very few western teams needed or could trade for Luongo, Keenan had a previous relationship with the Canucks/Bertuzzi and Bertuzzi's contract was expiring saving FLA ownership money. These were the dark days in FLA remember.

Sure he gets a tiny bit of credit, but no more from me then the bare minimum.

 

[Britton]

Literally every player is like this.

If I was an NHL player, I'd wear every piece of protective equipment imaginable. But nobody does and you have things like Kevin Bieksa getting his Achilles slashed a 2nd time because he didn't decide to wear the protective socks that were available to him after it happened once.

I'm still amazed that someone hasn't designed a skate with some sort of protective barrier around the foot that collapses when a 100 MPH shot hits it, even if it's just a couple mms to add a bit of extra protection.

Hockey players and doing everything in their power to not protect themselves name a more iconic duo.

It's just insane how little they seem to care about themselves and their long term well being. How long did they fight the Visor issue, like they had to wear either a full cage or a visor all the way to the NHL but suddenly in the NHL it becomes untenable. Same with neck guards and the like, you spend your entire minor hockey career wearing this stuff but when you start getting paid to play the game some switch in your brain goes off that says you can't be bothered with any of that shit, its infuriating.

 

[MS]

Hockey players and doing everything in their power to not protect themselves name a more iconic duo.

It's just insane how little they seem to care about themselves and their long term well being. How long did they fight the Visor issue, like they had to wear either a full cage or a visor all the way to the NHL but suddenly in the NHL it becomes untenable. Same with neck guards and the like, you spend your entire minor hockey career wearing this stuff but when you start getting paid to play the game some switch in your brain goes off that says you can't be bothered with any of that shit, its infuriating.

It's so freaking dumb.

Like you say, they wear all of this stuff up to the point where they have a career worth $millions they should be doing everything to protect ... and then ditch it at the first opportunity.

 

[F A N]

Well see thats the thing. When we had those decent 3 years, only 2 goalies had more regular season wins then Cloutier. Iirc it was Brodeur and Roy.

Ya. I don't really recall there being issues with Cloutier during the regular season.

Now onto some posts I've seen in this thread. I'm sorry but I can't give Nonis more credit when it comes to the Luongo deal then, thanks for not messing this one up.

Keenan was forced by FLA ownership to move Luongo. He wasn't trading him within the conference unless the deal was for Jumbo Joe which wasn't going to happen.

Nonis lucked out that we were out of conference, very few western teams needed or could trade for Luongo, Keenan had a previous relationship with the Canucks/Bertuzzi and Bertuzzi's contract was expiring saving FLA ownership money. These were the dark days in FLA remember.

Sure he gets a tiny bit of credit, but no more from me then the bare minimum.

I think that's fair and Nonis indeed lucked out. But I also see posts where oh this team just has bad goaltending while saying the Canucks rely on Demko etc. without considering the fact that the other team with bad goaltending didn't prioritize goaltending. Like don't be surprised if Oiler's best goaltender is Skinner while Dallas' best goaltender is Oettinger and teh Canucks Demko etc.
So my point is that Nonis, philosophically, did believe in building from the net out and he was/would have been willing to invest in goaltending. Like I said, even without Luongo, the team would have Schneider.

 

[MS]

Outside of one month in November 2003, Cloutier generally sucked in the regular seasons, too.

The guy plateaued as an OK backup-level goalie who got to spend multiple years as an NHL starter because the GM and coach liked that he was a hothead who got in fights.

And fans latched on to this '3 straight 30 win seasons!' thing as if winning 30 games from 60 starts on an elite team was a big accomplishment.

 

[bossram]

Hockey players and doing everything in their power to not protect themselves name a more iconic duo.

It's just insane how little they seem to care about themselves and their long term well being. How long did they fight the Visor issue, like they had to wear either a full cage or a visor all the way to the NHL but suddenly in the NHL it becomes untenable. Same with neck guards and the like, you spend your entire minor hockey career wearing this stuff but when you start getting paid to play the game some switch in your brain goes off that says you can't be bothered with any of that shit, its infuriating.

It's utterly bizzare, but not surprising. They wear as little protective equipment as possible (meanwhile injuries could possibly cost them millions of dollars over their careers) and complain about being made to wear certain items.

Then when the league mandates things (like helmets and then visors) basically they just get used to it. No issue. The complaints just move on to something else...

If I was an owner I'd be mandating my players wear every available piece of equipment. Protect your investments.

 

[F A N]

I think it was still generally the era where you 'traded for players' and the contract was a bit of an afterthought as opposed to today where everybody but Jim Benning understands that you're trading for an asset/contract package and the contract dictates the value of the asset.

Cloutier's contract relative to the cap in 2006 was the equivalent of a $5 million+ player now as a bad age-30 goalie coming off an injured/bad season. In 2023 you'd be paying to get rid of that asset, but in 2006 you still went and paid a premium to get 'the coach's guy'.

Lombardi obviously didn't see it that way. He immediately signed him to an extension because Clouts was entering the final year of his deal.

It's utterly bizzare, but not surprising. They wear as little protective equipment as possible (meanwhile injuries could possibly cost them millions of dollars over their careers) and complain about being made to wear certain items.

Then when the league mandates things (like helmets and then visors) basically they just get used to it. No issue. The complaints just move on to something else...

If I was an owner I'd be mandating my players wear every available piece of equipment. Protect your investments.

And no full face shields because teeth can be replaced and you want to be able to squeeze out blood after drawing a high sticking penalty.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

IIRC, Nonis and Crawford also didn't always seem on the same page when it came to goaltending. They brought in Noronen because Auld was being run into the ground after Cloutier got hurt, but Crawford just kept riding Auld.

I had to look this up because I was a wee kid, but we did in fact sign Brent Johnson for one hot minute before we waived him to Washington.

Which doesn’t seem like a big deal, but to a kid who all he heard was how much Cloutier sucked he seemed like an improvement. At least he could’ve split time with Auld if Crow was so inclined.

 

[RobertKron]

Lombardi obviously didn't see it that way. He immediately signed him to an extension because Clouts was entering the final year of his deal.

Yes. He f***ed up. The Kings also urged Cloutier to keep playing through a hip injury, which like, why would you do that with a goalie?

 

[RobertKron]

I had to look this up because I was a wee kid, but we did in fact sign Brent Johnson for one hot minute before we waived him to Washington.

Which doesn’t seem like a big deal, but to a kid who all he heard was how much Cloutier sucked he seemed like an improvement. At least he could’ve split time with Auld if Crow was so inclined.

Yeah, they waived him to send him to the AHL out of camp IIRC, but then they just like didn't develop a contingency plan even though Cloutier was their goalie and he was always hurt. They had to trade a 5th for Ouellet, who had played a whopping one AHL game so far that season by the time they acquired him in December, and then had to trade a second for Noronen when that shockingly didn't work out - but Crawford basically just kept riding Auld.

Edit: Auld appeared in something like 56 of the 61 remaining games after Cloutier got shut down.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Ian Cole has been a solid addition

 

[rypper]

Peak Cloutier was him tuning up Tommy Salo and then skating over and challenging the entire islanders bench.