Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[geebaan]

Doesn't seem like anybody is, although that depends on your perception of what defending Benning is.

While most of the haters of the last regime were saying we need to rebuild or we've been set back years, a few others like myself were saying that there are some really good pieces to build a team around, and that is turning out to be very true. In the Benning hater eyes, that is considered defending Benning.

I think the anti Benning crowd is pissed because something good came out of the last management group that consisted of Bracket, Linden, Benning, and the rest of the crew.

The fact of the matter is, the Canucks rebuild hasn't been much different than a lot of teams in the cap era.

But you keep saying good like they did it on purpose. They literally were so bad they were gifted top draft picks over and over. That’s f***ing bad and in no way should be celebrated.

They were bad TRYING to be good. No GM of the years awards.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Doesn't seem like anybody is, although that depends on your perception of what defending Benning is.

While most of the haters of the last regime were saying we need to rebuild or we've been set back years, a few others like myself were saying that there are some really good pieces to build a team around, and that is turning out to be very true. In the Benning hater eyes, that is considered defending Benning.

I think the anti Benning crowd is pissed because something good came out of the last management group that consisted of Bracket, Linden, Benning, and the rest of the crew.

The fact of the matter is, the Canucks rebuild hasn't been much different than a lot of teams in the cap era.

This team and organization would never be where it’s at now under Benning. Everyone here seems pretty excited and happy that the team is doing well. Seeing you try to pivot your incredibly stupid positions on management as another “gotcha” is depressing, Logan. Perhaps a banana would help.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Did Benning /Linden and their staff draft/trade and assemble core players Demko,Boeser,Pettersson,Hughes, Miller. ?.......Yes.

Could Benning have assembled a cohesive team around our core players, or anything near to a contender like the current management has ?.........No.

Did Benning leave a bad legacy....Yes.

 

[LordBacon]

I think what Logan really means is that while Jimbo is a failure of a gm, that management group did in fact draft a good core for the team despite Jimbo's best efforts to transform the team into a contender.
(So basically he was being rewarded for being a shit gm lol.)

 

[logan5]

I think what Logan really means is that while Jimbo is a failure of a gm, that management group did in fact draft a good core for the team despite Jimbo's best efforts to transform the team into a contender.
(So basically he was being rewarded for being a shit gm lol.)

Fair enough.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Even if there weren't a lot of on-ice changes there was a ton of off-ice changes, investing in scouting, development, management depth and diverse perspectives.

Not unreasonable to give credit for those early investments being what led to disproportionately good outcomes we're now seeing, it takes time to get a good scouting system in place, aligned coaching and talent development to make the most of what we have.

I find it easier to believe that instead of suddenly everything going right these past few months, what is more likely is that Rutherford and Allvin invested in the foundation that once it got in place led to a system that produces good decisions and maximizing the potential of the players they get, which is why we're now seeing the change in outcomes.

I'm all for process (Gillis fan here), but you have to execute. You can and are expected to do both as an NHL GM.

Granted, they had a bad cap situation here. Benning was an unmitigated disaster. Rutherford had to deal with bad cap from day one. Did he deal with it in an efficient way? To me, no. He kept playing right into it with Boeser/Mikheyev/Beauvillier etc.. We find out later that it's because he wants to retool, fair enough. But it's this plan, the cycling and the tinkering, that delays the major surgery he realized he had to do. Which then goes online with the OEL buyout.

 

[F A N]

They didn't do nothing the first year. They repaired the organization in the first year...something that often seems to be missed. That complete mess of an organization needed to be cleaned up to form a solid foundation before truly addressing the mess on the ice. They also had to wrestle for autonomy from ownership during that time.

You mean JR had to wrestle for autonomy from the guy who flew to his home to beg him to take over the team? Like he couldn't even bring in his own head coach?

It wasn't just a coaching change. Jim and friends had destroyed the entire organization which I think was a bit unique to most GMs coming to new team. It wasn't just bad on ice decisions but going to a bare bones organization to save $$$. That had to be rebuilt first in order for the on ice stuff to be successful (it was every level of the organization from AGM and below)

I'm kind of curious what you are thinking here. I mean ownership didn't hire a POHO to replace Linden but otherwise how did the Canucks go barebones?

Not to take anything away from the work JR and his management staff has done but just spitballing here... JR got rid of the AGMs from the prior regime and hired his own. I would think that's pretty standard (interestingly when Linden/Benning did that he got criticized for firing AGMs from the previous regime).

Ryan Johnson was further promoted and the player development staff was further expanded (especially with moving the Sedins over). Otherwise, Higgins is still around. So is Ian Clark.

There were some changes to the amateur scouting staff which occurred under Benning and Gillis but so far JR/Allvin has kept the same Directors of Amateur and Pro Scouting. I believe the current scouting staff is smaller than the one Benning left behind which was in turn smaller than the one Gillis left behind.

There was significant overhaul to the human performance/rehab staff. Not sure if there were any increases in expenditures though.

There also sees to be a lot more "coaching" that goes on the ice but I'm not sure if that is a management thing as much as it is a coaching thing. If Tocchet didn't want the Sedins on the ice I'm not sure that they would be there?

 

[tantalum]

You mean JR had to wrestle for autonomy from the guy who flew to his home to beg him to take over the team? Like he couldn't even bring in his own head coach?



I'm kind of curious what you are thinking here. I mean ownership didn't hire a POHO to replace Linden but otherwise how did the Canucks go barebones?

Not to take anything away from the work JR and his management staff has done but just spitballing here... JR got rid of the AGMs from the prior regime and hired his own. I would think that's pretty standard (interestingly when Linden/Benning did that he got criticized for firing AGMs from the previous regime).

Ryan Johnson was further promoted and the player development staff was further expanded (especially with moving the Sedins over). Otherwise, Higgins is still around. So is Ian Clark.

There were some changes to the amateur scouting staff which occurred under Benning and Gillis but so far JR/Allvin has kept the same Directors of Amateur and Pro Scouting. I believe the current scouting staff is smaller than the one Benning left behind which was in turn smaller than the one Gillis left behind.

There was significant overhaul to the human performance/rehab staff. Not sure if there were any increases in expenditures though.

There also sees to be a lot more "coaching" that goes on the ice but I'm not sure if that is a management thing as much as it is a coaching thing. If Tocchet didn't want the Sedins on the ice I'm not sure that they would be there?

First one...it was clear that they were not allowed to get rid of Boudreau when they wanted to. Rutherford wanted to turn that page before he was able to. The press conference "misstep" and treatment of Boudreau seems to me to be something Rutherford felt he had to do to finally being allowed to pull that trigger.

Second one...It was reported that during the pandemic the organization made numerous cost cutting measures it hit every part of the organization. Gear himself has said he was spread far too thin with the responsibilities he had. I don't understand how you are seemingly dismissing "bringing in his own people" that's the entire thing I'm talking about? So yes some people were kept but that is part of the whole evaluation of things when you come into a mess as big as he did. Who can stay and who needs to go. Rutherford hired an entire front office and properly divided up responsibilities across multiple AGMs. He invested in the farm team (you say yourself that the staff was expanded!) and player development. They replaced Cull with Colliton. They added everywhere. These are all foundational changes that needed to be completed to kickstart the on ice changes.

I'm certainly not saying coaching hasn't been a big factor in the resurgence. Of course it is. However, you need to fill out your upper levels before addressing the lower levels (that is if you are willing to consult the experts you are hiring for management positions and not simply being content with an echo chamber). All these things had to happen FIRST to set the environment for what we are seeing.

It was a lot of hiring and organizational management - complete front office, coaching staff changes at both levels when allowed to after assessments were made. These are things that take considerable time.

 

[MS]

Yeah, it's absolutely crystal clear that they weren't allowed to remove Boudreau when they wanted to in the summer of 2022. And that basically set everything back a year and totally wasted the 22-23 season.

 

[Ernie]

Chances might be slim but I truly hope this teaches Aquilini a lesson here, regardless of how the rest of this season plays out.

I doubt he learned any kind of lesson. His hand was forced in bringing in someone who has independent credibility; if he'd brought in another Benning type the market would have gone bananas.

 

[F A N]

First one...it was clear that they were not allowed to get rid of Boudreau when they wanted to. Rutherford wanted to turn that page before he was able to. The press conference "misstep" and treatment of Boudreau seems to me to be something Rutherford felt he had to do to finally being allowed to pull that trigger.

You are free to believe what you will but I just have a hard time believing this. With all the people on here who have proudly say that they will walk away (as a department head or whatever) if they didn't have autonomy, I have a hard time believing that JR with his experience and in his position wasn't allowed to fire Boudreau and bring in his own coach. I get that Covid might have had an impact but ownership allowed Linden to fire Torts with years left on his contract. Now did ownership push for Boudreau to stay? Sure. I mean after the previous year's success and Boudreau's popularity. I think that more likely JR didn't want to risk firing Boudreau and getting off to a bad start.

As for JR's treatment of Boudreau, if that was done to finally allow him to pull the trigger as you are suggesting here, I think that would be terrible and unprofessional. I'm going to give JR the benefit of the doubt here.

Second one...It was reported that during the pandemic the organization made numerous cost cutting measures it hit every part of the organization. Gear himself has said he was spread far too thin with the responsibilities he had.

Do you have any other examples? If Gear was serving as AGM and as the team's corporate counsel they ya Gear would be "spread far too thin." But as an AGM, my understanding is that he was primarily responsible for contract negotiations. I don't see how he would be spread far too thin in terms of hockey operations responsibilities.

I don't understand how you are seemingly dismissing "bringing in his own people" that's the entire thing I'm talking about?

I am not dismissing that. You said that the Canucks had to be rebuilt from a barebones state but bringing in your own management team while getting rid of the old is standard procedure.

So yes some people were kept but that is part of the whole evaluation of things when you come into a mess as big as he did. Who can stay and who needs to go. Rutherford hired an entire front office and properly divided up responsibilities across multiple AGMs. He invested in the farm team (you say yourself that the staff was expanded!) and player development. They replaced Cull with Colliton. They added everywhere. These are all foundational changes that needed to be completed to kickstart the on ice changes.

I said the player development team was further expanded. But that doesn't mean the Canucks ran a barebones operation. The Canucks hired a skating coach and skills coach under Benning. Current management got rid of the skating coach.

Again, replacing Cull with Colliton that's great. But how is that going from barebones to rebuilding the AHL coaching staff?

I'm certainly not saying coaching hasn't been a big factor in the resurgence. Of course it is. However, you need to fill out your upper levels before addressing the lower levels (that is if you are willing to consult the experts you are hiring for management positions and not simply being content with an echo chamber). All these things had to happen FIRST to set the environment for what we are seeing.

It was a lot of hiring and organizational management - complete front office, coaching staff changes at both levels when allowed to after assessments were made. These are things that take considerable time.

Again, I don't see how that is rebuilding a barebones operation. It's standard practice to bring in your own team whether it happens right away or you take a year or so to do it. The Linden regime came in, hired a new GM, a new coaching staff, then the next year replaced the Director of Amateur and Pro scouting and replaced the AGMs. Gillis came in and kept Tambellini and the head coach, but he also brought in Gilman and Henning and later hand picked assistant coaches.

Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from JR who I think built a competent management team and has brought in some good people. But putting the right people in place should be the credit given not making changes that any new manager would typically change (like bringing in their own guys).

 

[God]

It is pretty obvious that JR wasn't allowed to fire Boudreau. You don't take public shots at your coach without an underlying reason.

Jim Rutherford has criticism for Canucks coaches, excuses for management

650’s Satiar Shah asked directly if the right coaching staff was in place behind the bench to put in place the structure and accountability he was talking about, Rutherford equivocated.

“I do believe that the style that the team played that had success in the second half of last season was a loose style and it was more on the offensive side and our goaltender played great in the second half and really helped win a lot of those games or bailed us out in wide open games,” said Rutherford. “I don’t believe that that’s the style of play that you can sustain over a long period of time if you want to contend for a playoff spot.”

If that doesn’t sound like a vote of confidence for Boudreau, that’s because it isn’t.


Let’s keep in mind — Boudreau is not Rutherford’s coach. Boudreau was hired directly by Canucks ownership prior to hiring Rutherford as the president of hockey operations and Rutherford was not even aware when he was hired that Boudreau had a two-year contract.

“It was my understanding that he was going to get a contract for just last year,” said Rutherford on CBC’s After Hours. “He got a contract really for two years, and so he’s still got his contract. It wasn’t that we extended him one year, it was that we just lived by the contract he had.”

Typically, a new management team likes to bring in their own head coach, one that coaches the style and system that the management team wants to see. Rutherford and general manager Patrik Allvin didn’t get that opportunity and it’s entirely possible that it’s out of their hands. With Travis Green still on the books after he was fired last season, it seems unlikely that Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini is eager to be paying three head coaches at the same time.

Thus, the Canucks are left in an awkward situation — a lame duck coach with no contract beyond this season and a president of hockey operations that keeps lobbing grenades into the public sphere.

 

[timw33]

Yeah, it's absolutely crystal clear that they weren't allowed to remove Boudreau when they wanted to in the summer of 2022. And that basically set everything back a year and totally wasted the 22-23 season.

And I think a big part of that was the absolutely slap-dash reactionary structure Aquillini put in place once he clued in that Jim Benning needed to be fired. Hiring and naming a new head coach without bringing in a new GM to run a process, and then tacking the option year onto Boudreau's contract was a total disaster.

All he had to do was name an interim coach to not completely sewer whoever they were going to hire (Rutherford three days later, Allvin, 6 weeks later).

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

And I think a big part of that was the absolutely slap-dash reactionary structure Aquillini put in place once he clued in that Jim Benning needed to be fired. Hiring and naming a new head coach without bringing in a new GM to run a process, and then tacking the option year onto Boudreau's contract was a total disaster.

All he had to do was name an interim coach to not completely sewer whoever they were going to hire (Rutherford three days later, Allvin, 6 weeks later).

I actually think Boudreau was the right hire at the time of the firings. Say what you want about Boudreau but he gets the most out of his best offensive players. We had a lot of our best players struggling and moping. Most noticeably Pettersson. Pettersson turned his game around into a 100 point player, and Horvat upped his value. I don’t think you get that with an interim coach.

You are absolutely that it was reactionary though. If I remember right Aqua asked Rutherford about Boudreau and he okayed it. Although JR thought it was only 1 year. Agree with MS about the 22-23 season was wasted because management weren’t able to bring in the coach they wanted because Aqua liked to join in the Bruce there it is chants

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I actually think Boudreau was the right hire at the time of the firings. Say what you want about Boudreau but he gets the most out of his best offensive players. We had a lot of our best players struggling and moping. Most noticeably Pettersson. Pettersson turned his game around into a 100 point player, and Horvat upped his value. I don’t think you get that with an interim coach.

You are absolutely that it was reactionary though. If I remember right Aqua asked Rutherford about Boudreau and he okayed it. Although JR thought it was only 1 year. Agree with MS about the 22-23 season was wasted because management weren’t able to bring in the coach they wanted because Aqua liked to join in the Bruce there it is chants

I dont understand this whole they wouldnt bring in another coach because Aqua liked the' Bruce there its ' chants...?.(sounds a bit juvenile)..Boudreau had just had a solid 32-15-10 record, and was 5 points shy of a wild card spot...You cant just fire a guy who just literally turned the team around..?

I do agree that this wasnt the coach that JR/PA wanted, and when the team got off to a shit start, it gave the management a window to finally get their guy.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I dont understand this whole they wouldnt bring in another coach because Aqua liked the' Bruce there its ' chants...?...Boudreau had just had a solid 32-15-10 record, and was 5 points shy of a wild card spot...You cant just fire a guy who just literally turned the team around..?

I do agree that this wasnt the coach that JR/PA wanted, and when the team got off to a shit start, it gave the management a window to finally get their guy.

That's fair. I actually like Bruce as a coach. You don't win 600 games by fluke. He's a good coach. He was needed to turn our star players around but not the coach we needed long term. Yes it's a bad look firing Bruce in the summer, but JR ras raked over the coals by the media for having Bruce as a lame duck coach. It was a no win situation.

In hindsight, struggling last year was a blessing. We got the coach in place, it forced management to be aggressive in making changes, and we got a great prospect in Willander.

 

[Ernie]

And I think a big part of that was the absolutely slap-dash reactionary structure Aquillini put in place once he clued in that Jim Benning needed to be fired. Hiring and naming a new head coach without bringing in a new GM to run a process, and then tacking the option year onto Boudreau's contract was a total disaster.

All he had to do was name an interim coach to not completely sewer whoever they were going to hire (Rutherford three days later, Allvin, 6 weeks later).

They didn't really even need to fire Green at that point, could have just fired Benning and let the new GM take it from there. Season was done anyhow.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Im am so extremely impressed with what they have accomplished since this summer.

Blueger, Suter, Cole, Soucey (when healthy)...

Able to move the whole Kuz contract and bring back a superb 2 way piece.

Zadorov trade looks just brilliant now.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Not to take anything away from the work JR and his management staff has done but just spitballing here... JR got rid of the AGMs from the prior regime and hired his own. I would think that's pretty standard (interestingly when Linden/Benning did that he got criticized for firing AGMs from the previous regime).

Who did Benning replace them with?

How many procedural gaffes, tampering fines, etc. have occurred under the regimes before and prior to Benning?

The issue wasn't with Benning cleaning house. It was removing capable, competent front office staff, not replacing them, and then running afoul and having the League office help his dumb ass out. That's Dale Tallon in Chicago levels of incompetency (although, thankfully, 100% less sexual assault. So that's a point in Benning's favor. He's not enabling pederasts.)

The arrogant lump of dog shit thought he was the smartest guy in the room and made a complete mess of the organization. That's why he was criticized.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah, it's absolutely crystal clear that they weren't allowed to remove Boudreau when they wanted to in the summer of 2022. And that basically set everything back a year and totally wasted the 22-23 season.

someday i hope there will be an oral history of that power struggle from the four different perspectives

management, we know

bruce, my guess is he knew he was a lame duck and decided if that’s how it was going to be, he was going to burn the season by wasting training camp and not having a system even when the game started. a dick move, but hey these are highly competitive people with a lot of pride. don’t like it but i get it.

the ownership side we’ll never know, but a guy can dream. did frankie try to fire JR/PA and install himself as GM? did frankie get slapped by one of the other brothers or his dad?

and the players, carrying so much negativity from the losing, wasting prime years of possibly hall of fame talents, the tanev/toffoli/marky offseason, sutter, pearson, the covid debacle, real or perceived jtm/oetey/horvat feuds, were they really that bad with no demko and no system, or were they also trying to send a message? and if so to whom?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

someday i hope there will be an oral history of that power struggle from the four different perspectives

management, we know

bruce, my guess is he knew he was a lame duck and decided if that’s how it was going to be, he was going to burn the season by wasting training camp and not having a system even when the game started. a dick move, but hey these are highly competitive people with a lot of pride. don’t like it but i get it.

Doubt it.

We all know how much he loves hockey and how much he loves to coach.

the ownership side we’ll never know, but a guy can dream. did frankie try to fire JR/PA and install himself as GM? did frankie get slapped by one of the other brothers or his dad?

and the players, carrying so much negativity from the losing, wasting prime years of possibly hall of fame talents, the tanev/toffoli/marky offseason, sutter, pearson, the covid debacle, real or perceived jtm/oetey/horvat feuds, were they really that bad with no demko and no system, or were they also trying to send a message? and if so to whom?

 

[Petey O]

Im am so extremely impressed with what they have accomplished since this summer.

Blueger, Suter, Cole, Soucey (when healthy)...

Able to move the whole Kuz contract and bring back a superb 2 way piece.

Zadorov trade looks just brilliant now.

He's starting to believe..

 

[VanJack]

Im am so extremely impressed with what they have accomplished since this summer.

Blueger, Suter, Cole, Soucey (when healthy)...

Able to move the whole Kuz contract and bring back a superb 2 way piece.

Zadorov trade looks just brilliant now.

It actually started earlier than that.....Signing Miller to a long term deal; and dealing Horvat instead for a first rounder, enabled them to snag Hronek. Almost impossible to find a young, puck-moving right shot d-men who's a lock to put up 40-55 points. And that Hughes-Hronek pairing is the best in the league. And they still have a useful prospect in Raty.

And flying below the radar screen is the acquisition of Casey DeSmith, whilst unloading Pearson's contract. And shedding Beauvillier's contract with no retention, freeing up the money to take on Zadorov's contract.

The drafting hasn't been too shabby either. Lekerimakki, Wilander and D-Petey all played prominent roles on Sweden's WJHC team. While drafting Brzustewicz was a piece to pry Lindholm out of Calgary. And kids like Bains, Sasson and McWard acquired for basically nothing but an ELC.

It's like every piece of the roster jig-saw puzzle fits together, and Allvin and Rutherford are always two or three steps ahead in their roster construction. As a Canuck fan for decades, it's all pretty stunning.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Doubt it.

We all know how much he loves hockey and how much he loves to coach.

i guess it’s hard for me to believe that a guy with that much coaching experience could be that unprepared

 

[PuckMunchkin]

i guess it’s hard for me to believe that a guy with that much coaching experience could be that unprepared

I mean... He lost his assistant coaches and didn't get to replace them.

I think he was in the middle of a weird power struggle.