Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[MS]

I think people were pretty impatient for the on-ice changes to be made (or be obvious) and really underestimated the work that needed to be done structurally for the organization. Things that needed to be done in order to see what we are seeing. Most think the building of a team starts with the players on the ice and in many cases that is what can be done by a new GM. In this case Benning and Aquilini had also let the entire organization off the ice rot and that needed to be addressed first.

The damage Benning and friends did really illustrated how being a GM is far more than drafting and trades. Rutherford and Alvin had a monumental task (still do) but for the most part they have attacked it with competence and consistency since day 1.

Yeah, I said this a lot during the Benning era.

People think that 90% of being a GM is drafting and trades, when that's actually only 30 or 40% of it.

Succeeding as a GM is about providing leadership and direction, creating a culture of accountability, putting people in positions to succeed, hiring the right people, and so on. If you do all those things right, people will exceed expectations and even moves that seem average will turn out well.

If you run a disorganized mess with no direction, you can draft the right people and make the right moves ... but people will still underachieve and things won't work out.

Benning, of course, was the worst of all worlds.

You are giving Elmer too much credit here. There is no way he would write a tweet like that without making a few spelling and/or grammatical errors. Remember he posed for a photo with his white board despite multiple major cities being spelled wrong, like Pittsburg?

Goes to look for photo

'Pittsburg' and 'Philedelphia' as well as a host of player names.

It's one thing to not be able to spell Chattanooga or something, but when he'd been traveling to those two cities regularly for 35 years, it was ... something.

The guy was barely literate. Those word-for-word transcribed interviews that someone started doing toward the end of his tenure here were mindblowing.

 

[RobertKron]

All things considered, the Canucks rebuild has been fairly typical, and not that far off of what people around here consider a good rebuild - the Colorado Avalanche. (I am making the assumption we are out of the rebuild stage). Anyways, the Avs went 7 years where they made 1 play-off appearance. The Canucks have gone 8 years where they made 1 play-off appearance, so really not that huge a difference. And talent wise, imo we are not that far off of what the Avs have.

This long rebuild phase is something a lot of other teams have gone through, and what other teams will, or are going through. It is the reality of the cap era.

If you were to rank rebuilds, Vancouver is probly better than average, considering the talent this team has.

THE CANUCKS HAD HOCKEY STICKS TOO, SO IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING

Just laying this out there, Hughes originally was a forward and transitioned to defense when he was 13.

Izzy Goodenough or whoever it is who has that schtick unequivocally confirmed as member of Canucks org.

 

[sting101]

It was Fin 100% confirmed.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Yeah, I said this a lot during the Benning era.

People think that 90% of being a GM is drafting and trades, when that's actually only 30 or 40% of it.

Succeeding as a GM is about providing leadership and direction, creating a culture of accountability, putting people in positions to succeed, hiring the right people, and so on. If you do all those things right, people will exceed expectations and even moves that seem average will turn out well.

If you run a disorganized mess with no direction, you can draft the right people and make the right moves ... but people will still underachieve and things won't work out.

Benning, of course, was the worst of all worlds.






'Pittsburg' and 'Philedelphia' as well as a host of player names.

It's one thing to not be able to spell Chattanooga or something, but when he'd been traveling to those two cities regularly for 35 years, it was ... something.

The guy was barely literate. Those word-for-word transcribed interviews that someone started doing toward the end of his tenure here were mindblowing.

Yup. This isn't video games and being a good GM is just getting as many elite potential players as possible. This is one of my posts from earlier which sums up why the new management team had been successful, and the old one wasnt:

Honestly in a normal world I wouldn't even care about drafting Virtanen and Juolevi. Drafting out of all the parts of the GM job has the most luck. Nobody will get it right all the time. For the same reason why it is stupid to keep a GM if the only thing they can do is draft.

The Juolevi pick was just a symptom of that they had no clue how to run an organization, didn't know how to delegate, and Jim and John ran every department(poorly).

It's night and day. Everything the old regime did poorly, the old regime is excelling in other than maybe a few hiccups.
-Filling out the organization with competent people top to bottom.
-Prioritizing the coaching staff and player development.
-Building Abbotsford. Putting players like Hoglander and now Podkolzin in Abbotsford. Looks like they are going to let most prospects stew in Abbotsford.
-Not spending big assets and finding cheap role players. The one big trade they have made has been for 25 top 4 D that was starting to play at a first pairing level. Not panic trades to save jobs even if the Miller trade worked wonderfully for us(Oel trade though...)

Jim Benning was not a scout, he was the general manager

Sure teams fail rebuild because they don't draft well. They also fail because of incompetent management like we have seen from Buffalo forever and are seeing now with Ottawa. Where they pretty much do the opposite of everything above. This is a reason why Toronto was successfully able to rebuild, why a team like Florida was able to turn it around a few years ago and why we are succeeding now.

 

[logan5]

THE CANUCKS HAD HOCKEY STICKS TOO, SO IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING

Are the Canucks an elite team this year?

 

[MS]

Yup. This isn't video games and being a good GM is just getting as many elite potential players as possible. This is one of my posts from earlier which sums up why the new management team had been successful, and the old one wasnt:


Sure teams fail rebuild because they don't draft well. They also fail because of incompetent management like we have seen from Buffalo forever and are seeing now with Ottawa. Where they pretty much do the opposite of everything above. This is a reason why Toronto was successfully able to rebuild, why a team like Florida was able to turn it around a few years ago and why we are succeeding now.

And the other thing is that - as bad as the Virtanen and Juolevi picks were - those players probably turn out significantly better if they go to a better organization with a better plan and a better environment.

A guy like McCann was lucky to get out at age 20 and develop elsewhere whereas those guys were here until age 23-24 and basically ruined. Left on their own to destroy themselves.

 

[RobertKron]

Are the Canucks an elite team this year?

All things considered, I don't see how you can make a distinction between the Canucks and any other team this year. They all employ NHL hockey players, and all the teams travel long distances to go to various arenas and play hockey games. None of them are really too far off from each other, and I bet by the end of the regular season they'll probably all have played roughly 82 games just like what most people around here consider to be an NHL season.

 

[logan5]

All things considered, I don't see how you can make a distinction between the Canucks and any other team this year. They all employ NHL hockey players, and all the teams travel long distances to go to various arenas and play hockey games. None of them are really too far off from each other.

I ask that question because you were getting on me about my assertion that the Canucks are on the verge of becoming elite.

 

[RobertKron]

I ask that question because you were getting on me about my assertion that the Canucks are on the verge of becoming elite.

IIRC, I was on you about saying that you don't trust this management group immediately after saying how this is going to be an elite team.

Also, IIRC, I was pointing out that you'd been saying that for years, although I might be mixing that up with someone else.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

And the other thing is that - as bad as the Virtanen and Juolevi picks were - those players probably turn out significantly better if they go to a better organization with a better plan and a better environment.

A guy like McCann was lucky to get out at age 20 and develop elsewhere whereas those guys were here until age 23-24 and basically ruined. Left on their own to destroy themselves.

I actually think Virtanen is the only real case of a player being “developed” by the previous regime. Actually spent some time in Utica and became a 15-20 middle 6er. His off ice habits and IQ were what held him back, not development. Juolevi you’re probably right.

I feel infinitely more confident that an D-Petey like prospect will make it than I did before. Management has done excellent work building Abbotsford and the player development staff.

 

[logan5]

IIRC, I was on you about saying that you don't trust this management group immediately after saying how this is going to be an elite team.

Also, IIRC, I was pointing out that you'd been saying that for years, although I might be mixing that up with someone else.

At the beginning of the 21/22 season is when I first said the team has the right pieces or trending towards being elite. Given the talent they had, they should have progressed to being at least a wild card team, then evolved into being a top tier team that they are this season. Instead they took a huge jump from being 10 last in the league to top 2.

So you are correct in saying that I have been saying that for years, but contrast that to everybody who was saying the team was set back for 5 years, or even a full rebuild should be done, so not too bad of a take.

 

[tyhee]

I actually think Virtanen is the only real case of a player being “developed” by the previous regime. Actually spent some time in Utica and became a 15-20 middle 6er. His off ice habits and IQ were what held him back, not development. Juolevi you’re probably right.

I feel infinitely more confident that an D-Petey like prospect will make it than I did before. Management has done excellent work building Abbotsford and the player development staff.

Regarding Virtanen, I think he was largely ruined before Green did the reclamation job on him.

He should never have started 2015-2016 with the Canucks. He didn't earn the spot. Then he was kept with the team when he should have been returned to the minors before burning his elc AND waiver exemption years. Then he should have started the next season in Utica. After he was eventually sent down (and after coming back to Vancouver to get his stuff) he eventually started to take things seriously and reportedly spent some time with Green going over videos, though he never did look all that good that season.

Then the season after that, after showing some effort at learning but having an unimpressive time in the minors, then a so-so training camp, he was again immediately promoted to the NHL. If ever there was a way to convince a dumb entitled kid that he didn't have to do all that much to be in the NHL, the Canucks found it.

It shouldn't have been a great surprise when he didn't maintain his 2019-2020 form. After all, he could go party with the biebs and wow at least some of the girls with his baby face and status as an NHL player. There was no need to keep putting himself out working on his game.

 

[LordBacon]

If ever there was a way to convince a dumb entitled kid that he didn't have to do all that much to be in the NHL, the Canucks found it.

Perfect summary for Virtanens career and Canucks Development back then.

 

[VanJack]

And the other thing is that - as bad as the Virtanen and Juolevi picks were - those players probably turn out significantly better if they go to a better organization with a better plan and a better environment.

A guy like McCann was lucky to get out at age 20 and develop elsewhere whereas those guys were here until age 23-24 and basically ruined. Left on their own to destroy themselves.

Whatever Juolevi might have become, serious injuries almost from the time he was drafted completely derailed his development.

As for Virtanen, he simply wasn't willing to work hard enough to be a professional hockey player. The Canucks tried to work with him and motivate him. Travis Green spent half a season in Utica trying get him turned around. But it was to no avail.

The fact that he's nowhere close to being an NHL player anymore is proof of that.

 

[BimJenning]

I'm not even sure Virtanen had much upside; I don't know if I'm misremembering, but I swear he had a 20% or higher shooting percentage the year he was drafted? Completely unsustainable numbers.

 

[Raistlin]

wow... competent people in strategic positions in an organisation. I have to hand it to Rutherford. He is giving this long suffering fan base a real shot. Now its up to the hockey gods to give us health.

 

[mriswith]

You gotta wonder at the night and day difference of this groups first year on the job doing nothing versus their second year on the job making 50% of the trades on the NHL.

 

[Russian_fanatic]

It's 1230am... and I can't sleep.

This management group is top tier. Rutherford knows what he is doing, and Allvin has been a hidden gem. He has completely revamped the offense and defense... 50% of all NHL trades... wow.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You gotta wonder at the night and day difference of this groups first year on the job doing nothing versus their second year on the job making 50% of the trades on the NHL.

Night and day, agreed. Before this past offseason, you could have legitimately wanted them gone. Few would have batted an eye.

Speaking of eye(s), I wondered why Allvin looked so tired in the contract extension presser. Now we know.

 

[Peen]

I agree the development stunk under the clowns but I really don’t think JV/Juolevi have different outcomes in most simulations if we ran their careers over.

 

[Coffee]

I agree the development stunk under the clowns but I really don’t think JV/Juolevi have different outcomes in most simulations if we ran their careers over.

Why not Juolevi? Forgive me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he have a major injury that screwed his skating development?

 

[PG Canuck]

This is a huge deal for the management. Everyone is extended but now I want to see that good decisions will be consistent. Lindholm hitting here gives me absolute full confidence in this management for years to come.

 

[Peen]

Why not Juolevi? Forgive me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he have a major injury that screwed his skating development?

Im implying that in a “if he got to the pro-level and was met with the current development team” way

obviously if we simulated from draft day and if he never gets hurt, that’s different as well

but im strictly speaking about the pros rn

 

[tantalum]

You gotta wonder at the night and day difference of this groups first year on the job doing nothing versus their second year on the job making 50% of the trades on the NHL.

They didn't do nothing the first year. They repaired the organization in the first year...something that often seems to be missed. That complete mess of an organization needed to be cleaned up to form a solid foundation before truly addressing the mess on the ice. They also had to wrestle for autonomy from ownership during that time.

 

[andora]

They didn't do nothing the first year. They repaired the organization in the first year...something that often seems to be missed. That complete mess of an organization needed to be cleaned up to form a solid foundation before truly addressing the mess on the ice. They also had to wrestle for autonomy from ownership during that time.

You mean that stuff takes time?
Hell outta here