Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[F A N]

Who did Benning replace them with?

At the time Gillis left, he was POHO/GM and had two AGMs. Gilman and Henning being fired left them with Linden, Benning, and Weisbrod. Linden also had his buddy TC Carling advising him. The point is that bringing in your own guys is pretty standard procedure. Nobody should expect the AGMs from the previous regime to be kept unless it was an AGM promoted to the GM role. People get let go or move on regardless of competency. A top manager often would have someone following as part of a package deal. Heck, Gillis told Gilman he would hire him if he ever became a GM and that's what he did. It's just how things work.

 

[RobertKron]

At the time Gillis left, he was POHO/GM and had two AGMs. Gilman and Henning being fired left them with Linden, Benning, and Weisbrod. Linden also had his buddy TC Carling advising him. The point is that bringing in your own guys is pretty standard procedure. Nobody should expect the AGMs from the previous regime to be kept unless it was an AGM promoted to the GM role. People get let go or move on regardless of competency. A top manager often would have someone following as part of a package deal. Heck, Gillis told Gilman he would hire him if he ever became a GM and that's what he did. It's just how things work.

Worth noting that Henning had already been with the team for some time when Gillis came in.

The odd thing about Benning dumping those guys is that he kept them on for a season rather than coming in and having a clean slate and putting his own guys in place.

Also that, IIRC, he didn't really replace them with anyone until a few years later when Gear was made an AGM, but I could be misremembering that. My memory is, though, that he didn't really ever have his "own guys" - it was just him and Weisbrod just kind of running around dipping their hands in all the cookie jars. Gear had also been with the team for some time when Benning was hired, and kind of felt like he was shoehorned into Hockey Ops from within the organization to be the cap guy because he has a legal background and they needed a grownup in the room or whatever.

But yes, there would have been nothing strange about Benning coming in, clearing house, and establishing his own team like the current management group did.

 

[F A N]

Worth noting that Henning had already been with the team for some time when Gillis came in.

That's a good point. It should also be noted that Henning was the Director of Player Personnel when Gillis came in. Also Gillis likely would have kept Tambellini if Tambellini didn't go to Edmonton. Gillis also came to trust Crawford more who was already here.

The odd thing about Benning dumping those guys is that he kept them on for a season rather than coming in and having a clean slate and putting his own guys in place.

Maybe it was a contractual thing. I suppose that given Gillis kept Henning and Tambellini it isn't so odd either. Benning did bring in Weisbrod in immediately and Linden brought in TC Carling.

Also that, IIRC, he didn't really replace them with anyone until a few years later when Gear was made an AGM, but I could be misremembering that. My memory is, though, that he didn't really ever have his "own guys" - it was just him and Weisbrod just kind of running around dipping their hands in all the cookie jars. Gear had also been with the team for some time when Benning was hired, and kind of felt like he was shoehorned into Hockey Ops from within the organization to be the cap guy because he has a legal background and they needed a grownup in the room or whatever.

But yes, there would have been nothing strange about Benning coming in, clearing house, and establishing his own team like the current management group did.

Not exactly. It was right after Gilman and Henning were let go that Weisbrod became AGM, Wall was promoted, and Gear was brought into hockey ops to help with contracts and CBA. The two basically divided up Gilman's duties. There were other changes such as Brackett and Celebrinini being brought in.

I've said this before, to me there are a list of duties to perform and someone has to do them. There are duties that are typically filled by the POHO if you have one and the GM if you don't have one. A lot of teams have one of their AGMs run their farm team. The Canucks instead have Ryan Johnson running player development and as Abbotsford's GM without holding the AGM title. At the time of Benning's departure, Wall was head of the analytics department and was clearly in the inner circle when it came to hockey operations. Gear became AGM mainly because he was negotiating contracts for the team.

Regardless, there is no evidence to suggest that the Canucks were running a barebones operation at the time Benning left. Obviously the front office has been rebuilt and I think Rutherford did want a bigger front office. But at least right now there was an initial expansion but there were people who moved on that weren't officially replaced. For example, Clancey left as AGM and haven't been replaced. Officially, the Sedins and Smyl were advisors too but Smyl retired and Sedins were moved to player development. Tallon replaced Jarvis as Senior Advisor. Scott Young is a new addition, Fox takes over Wall's role, Doerrie was added to the analytics team, but she left and hasn't been replaced. The scouting staff isn't notably bigger or smaller either.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

At the time Gillis left, he was POHO/GM and had two AGMs. Gilman and Henning being fired left them with Linden, Benning, and Weisbrod. Linden also had his buddy TC Carling advising him. The point is that bringing in your own guys is pretty standard procedure. Nobody should expect the AGMs from the previous regime to be kept unless it was an AGM promoted to the GM role. People get let go or move on regardless of competency. A top manager often would have someone following as part of a package deal. Heck, Gillis told Gilman he would hire him if he ever became a GM and that's what he did. It's just how things work.

Okay, but that didn't answer my question.

Regardless, there is no evidence to suggest that the Canucks were running a barebones operation at the time Benning left.

And no one said this.

 

[Vector]

It was reported by numerous local and national media sources that the Canucks ran one of the smallest hockey operation departments.

 

[MS]

It was reported by numerous local and national media sources that the Canucks ran one of the smallest hockey operation departments.

Yeah, I’m not sure how anyone is disputing this. It was bare bones as hell and looked like a setup from the 1970s.

It was basically the Benning/Weisbrod show with a little bit of Chris Gear.

So many people were let go and not replaced.

 

[F A N]

Okay, but that didn't answer my question.

I feel I did.

And no one said this.

You know when you quote a post from a poster that in turn quoted someone and was responding to it, it is usually expected that you read what the other poster was responding to:

It wasn't just bad on ice decisions but going to a bare bones organization to save $$$.

 

[F A N]

It was reported by numerous local and national media sources that the Canucks ran one of the smallest hockey operation departments.

Yeah, I’m not sure how anyone is disputing this. It was bare bones as hell and looked like a setup from the 1970s.

It was basically the Benning/Weisbrod show with a little bit of Chris Gear.

So many people were let go and not replaced.

Please point out what I'm missing here.

Did the team have a GM and two AGMs at the time Benning left? Yes. Isn't that pretty standard when a team doesn't have a POHO?

They had Ryan Johnson running the AHL farm team instead of an AGM. He also ran Player Development. Wall was Director of Hockey Operations and oversaw the analytics department. We had a Director of Goaltending. Doug Jarvis and Smyl were Senior Advisors. The Sedins were Special Advisors to GM at the time Benning left as well.

Did we have a bigger hockey operations department at the time Gillis left?

What positions in hockey operatiosn were notably unfilled except the position of POHO?

 

[MS]

Please point out what I'm missing here.

Did the team have a GM and two AGMs at the time Benning left? Yes. Isn't that pretty standard when a team doesn't have a POHO?

They had Ryan Johnson running the AHL farm team instead of an AGM. He also ran Player Development. Wall was Director of Hockey Operations and oversaw the analytics department. We had a Director of Goaltending. Doug Jarvis and Smyl were Senior Advisors. The Sedins were Special Advisors to GM at the time Benning left as well.

Did we have a bigger hockey operations department at the time Gillis left?

What positions in hockey operatiosn were notably unfilled except the position of POHO?

Most teams have President -> GM -> 3-4 people with AGM/Director of Player Personnel titles. Plus a couple people with 'senior advisor/special advisor' type titles.

We had a GM and 2 AGMs.

It was a small, small front office. They basically fired all the dissenting voices, minimized other roles around Benning/Weisbrod (ie. Todd Harvey had less autonomy/voice than Judd Brackett) and those two guys were running amok.

 

[F A N]

Most teams have President -> GM -> 3-4 people with AGM/Director of Player Personnel titles. Plus a couple people with 'senior advisor/special advisor' type titles.

We had a GM and 2 AGMs.

It was a small, small front office. They basically fired all the dissenting voices, minimized other roles around Benning/Weisbrod (ie. Todd Harvey had less autonomy/voice than Judd Brackett) and those two guys were running amok.

Did you not read my post? The Canucks had a GM, 2 AGMs, a Director of Hockey Operations, plus Johnson, plus (with the Sedins) three "senior advisor/special advisor" type titles. How is that different from what you say "most teams have" besides not having a POHO?

 

[MS]

Did you not read my post? The Canucks had a GM, 2 AGMs, a Director of Hockey Operations, plus Johnson, plus (with the Sedins) three "senior advisor/special advisor" type titles. How is that different from what you say "most teams have" besides not having a POHO?

They had 3 people at the AGM level or higher when most organizations were at 4-6 and some have as many as 7 or 8 (see Toronto). This is pretty elementary.

Every team has an AHL GM like Ryan Johnson was.

 

[F A N]

They had 3 people at the AGM level or higher when most organizations were at 4-6 and some have as many as 7 or 8 (see Toronto). This is pretty elementary.

What do you consider to be AGM level or higher besides POHO, GM, and AGMs? Are you including Senior Advisors/Special Advisors?

Every team has an AHL GM like Ryan Johnson was.

Like I said, most teams have an AGM running their farm team. I think the Canucks having a non-AGM running the farm team is rather unusual.

 

[logan5]

Who did Benning replace them with?

How many procedural gaffes, tampering fines, etc. have occurred under the regimes before and prior to Benning?

The issue wasn't with Benning cleaning house. It was removing capable, competent front office staff, not replacing them, and then running afoul and having the League office help his dumb ass out. That's Dale Tallon in Chicago levels of incompetency (although, thankfully, 100% less sexual assault. So that's a point in Benning's favor. He's not enabling pederasts.)

The arrogant lump of dog shit thought he was the smartest guy in the room and made a complete mess of the organization. That's why he was criticized.

Well thankfully that lump of shit is gone and this new management team can begin the rebuilding process. Could take 5 years or so, given that Benning and crew set this organization back years, as you have so astutely mentioned a number of times.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Well thankfully that lump of shit is gone and this new management team can begin the rebuilding process. Could take 5 years or so, given that Benning and crew set this organization back years, as you have so astutely mentioned a number of times.

Set the organization back years..Nonsense..JR said it would take 2 years to unravel the cap mess we were in ,and he was dead on the money .

We’re in 1st place ,and verging on a SC contender.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Well thankfully that lump of shit is gone and this new management team can begin the rebuilding process. Could take 5 years or so, given that Benning and crew set this organization back years, as you have so astutely mentioned a number of times.

You're aware I was responding to someone who had brought up Benning and the discussion was about front office moves, yes?

If so, what is your point?

Like I said, most teams have an AGM running their farm team. I think the Canucks having a non-AGM running the farm team is rather unusual.

18 teams have an AGM running their farm team. Not really the overwhelming majority you were implying.

 

[Wisp]

"Jim Rutherford cleaned up Benning's mess effectively and decisively so maybe Benning didn't do a bad job," is a helluva an argument.

Using Rutherford's work is impressive because he was left a disaster. Jimbo fans trying to claim vctory on the back of his work is disgusting.

 

[logan5]

"Jim Rutherford cleaned up Benning's mess effectively and decisively so maybe Benning didn't do a bad job," is a helluva an argument.

Using Rutherford's work is impressive because he was left a disaster. Jimbo fans trying to claim vctory on the back of his work is disgusting.

Bracket and Linden lefta Vezina level goalie, a probable Norris winner a d s 100 point Selke candidate, along with another 100 point player. That's not a disaster by a long shot.

 

[F A N]

You're aware I was responding to someone who had brought up Benning and the discussion was about front office moves, yes?

If so, what is your point?

You are aware that you were responding to someone who was responding to someone who brought up Benning right?

18 teams have an AGM running their farm team. Not really the overwhelming majority you were implying.

Since you did the work and making this statement which teams have non-AGMs running their farm team? And among those teams, which of those teams own their farm team?

 

[Wisp]

Bracket and Linden lefta Vezina level goalie, a probable Norris winner a d s 100 point Selke candidate, along with another 100 point player. That's not a disaster by a long shot.

Rutherford took the job because he wanted a challenge. He said so. He saw a disaster and it was.

The sheer volume of terrible contracts they had to move out over 3 seasons is astounding. The enoumous resources that had to be applied to make OEL's contract partially go away was massive. The balls it took to trade their Captain.

But they made it look easy so your ilk go on pretending it was a great situation he walked into. I can't understate my contempt for this way of thinking enough. Any Benning bro today should be thoroughly humiliated.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Rutherford took the job because he wanted a challenge. He said so. He saw a disaster and it was.

The sheer volume of terrible contracts they had to move out over 3 seasons is astounding. The enoumous resources that had to be applied to make OEL's contract partially go away was massive. The balls it took to trade their Captain.

But they made it look easy so your ilk go on pretending it was a great situation he walked into. I can't understate my contempt for this way of thinking enough. Any Benning bro today should be thoroughly humiliated.

Nonsense...He didnt see a disaster, thats your narrative..He saw a team that had completed a rebuild, had elite talent entering their prime years..and he felt with a good retool with the right supporting cast ..he could turn it around. (and he most certainly did)..I highly doubt he would have taken the job if the team was gutted and embarking on a rebuild,

“We're certainly not starting from scratch. There's a lot of good players there.”..
“We’ve got a group of guys here that are impact players. We’ve got a world-class goalie. We’ve got a defence that is certainly adequate if it’s healthy,”..JR

-Nobody is saying he 'walked into a great situation'...He didnt.
-Nobody is saying Benning maybe didnt do a bad job...He did a bad job, thats why he's gone.

Maybe ease off on the strawmannirg a bit.

 

[Wisp]

Nonsense...He didnt see a disaster, thats your narrative..He saw a team that had completed a rebuild, had elite talent entering their prime years..and he felt with a good retool with the right supporting cast ..he could turn it around. (and he most certainly did)..I highly doubt he would have taken the job if the team was embarking on a rebuild,

“We're certainly not starting from scratch. There's a lot of good players there.”..JR

-Nobody is saying he 'walked into a great situation'...He didnt.
-Nobody is saying Benning maybe didnt do a bad job...He did a bad job, thats why he's gone.

Maybe ease off on the strawmannirg a bit.

he was being polite. it was absolutely a disaster.

you're the muppet making the argument that he didn't set the team back years. he did. a lot of them were Benning's own seasons he set back on himself.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

he was being polite. it was absolutely a disaster.

you're the muppet making the argument that he didn't set the team back years. he did. a lot of them were Benning's own seasons he set back on himself.

Our current core was only completed in the 2019-20 season.(Hughes,Boeser, EP, Miller, Demko,Horvat)..Nothing was ever going to happen before then...Things looked very promising after the 2020 playoffs..Benning effed it up the following year and a half after that...Again, you're ill informed.

The team (he inherited) had 92 points in JR's first year..Maybe not playoff worthy, but miles away from a 'disaster.'

JR said it would take two years to untangle the cap mess, fix the farm, build up the some prospects...and two years later, here we are.

JR is not polite..he’s all business.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Don’t take the bait from people who spent years defending every stupid move Jim Benning made and considered him an ‘average’ GM. These people have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

You are aware that you were responding to someone who was responding to someone who brought up Benning right?

Yeah, I have no idea what logan's post was about.

Since you did the work and making this statement which teams have non-AGMs running their farm team?

You were the one who made the original assertion. Shouldn't you be the one showing your work since you were the one who claimed "most teams have an AGM running their farm team"? Since we all know you won't:

1) NYI - Chris Lamoriello (director of player personnel)

2) Panthers - Vacant/Derek Wilkinson (unsure), previous to that was Greg Campbell prior to being promoted to an AGM.

3) Capitals - Bryan Helmer

4) St. Louis - Kevin Maxwell

5) Pittsburgh - Elite Prospects says it's Erik Heasley, and the Penguins site says he's "Director of Minor League and Amateur Scouting Operations"

6) Columbus - Chris Clark (director of player personnel)

7) Minnesota - Michael Murray (director of hockey operations)

8) Nashville - Scott Nichol (director of player development)

9) Chicago - Mark Bernard (VP hockey ops)

10) Vancouver - Do you need me to hold your hand on this one?

11) Seattle - Troy Bodie (director, hockey/business operations)

12) Vegas - Tim Speltz

13) LA - Richard Seeley

I had Dallas in there as director of player personnel but he is an AGM, so my bad on missing that.

And among those teams, which of those teams own their farm team?

You were the one who said "most teams have an AGM running their farm team." No qualifiers.

 

[logan5]

Rutherford took the job because he wanted a challenge. He said so. He saw a disaster and it was.

The sheer volume of terrible contracts they had to move out over 3 seasons is astounding. The enoumous resources that had to be applied to make OEL's contract partially go away was massive. The balls it took to trade their Captain.

But they made it look easy so your ilk go on pretending it was a great situation he walked into. I can't understate my contempt for this way of thinking enough. Any Benning bro today should be thoroughly humiliated.

are you another one who couldn't recognize what Brackett left for the next management group? despite the bad moves I said all along the next management group is set up quite nicely. There were a small minority of us who could see that the seeds were planted for an elite team. thank God we didn't follow the likes of those who thought we should rebuild

Rutherford saw that talent and saw an opportunity.