Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[Frankie Blueberries]

You’re telling me a last ditch effort to save the season by playing musical chairs with bottom pairing defense and bottom pairing forwards while not creating cap space and blending assets didn’t work.


I’m shocked
Truly shocked

I’ve provided you multiple examples on the differences between the two management groups that you have conveniently ignored. Why bother?

 

[racerjoe]

Also I would say if they sign Bear, as it seems they want to it isn't a this season only move.

 

[VanJack]

Is there a team in the league where the fan-base is more disgusted with its team owner than in Vancouver? I can't think of single place.

Heck a lot of fan-bases around the league probably don't even know who the team owner is. But in VanCity, the Aquilini's just seem to encapsulate everything that's gone awry with this franchise.

I see the chant at the end of the last game from the stands was "sell the team". At least fans are finally pointing the finger of blame where it belongs. But sell the team? Not likely.

 

[BimJenning]

Is there a team in the league where the fan-base is more disgusted with its team owner than in Vancouver? I can't think of single place.

Heck a lot of fan-bases around the league probably don't even know who the team owner is. But in VanCity, the Aquilini's just seem to encapsulate everything that's gone awry with this franchise.

I see the chant at the end of the last game from the stands was "sell the team". At least fans are finally pointing the finger of blame where it belongs. But sell the team? Not likely.

Maybe it would have for Melnyk or Dolan, though the latter I think is rightfully just hated in NY as a whole, lol

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Is there a team in the league where the fan-base is more disgusted with its team owner than in Vancouver? I can't think of single place.

Heck a lot of fan-bases around the league probably don't even know who the team owner is. But in VanCity, the Aquilini's just seem to encapsulate everything that's gone awry with this franchise.

I see the chant at the end of the last game from the stands was "sell the team". At least fans are finally pointing the finger of blame where it belongs. But sell the team? Not likely.

Best we can do is empty out the arena.

I find it hilarious that FAQ has 3 sports franchises in his name (Canucks, Warriors and Titans) and each and every one is dysfunctional as f*** right now.

This comes as no surprise. A scummy person will breed a shit culture.

 

[valkynax]

Also I would say if they sign Bear, as it seems they want to it isn't a this season only move.

I wonder if it's part of the plan to bring in some of these players like Schenn and Bear, let them play well then trade off the profit. That would be pretty standard positive asset management.

 

[4Twenty]

I agree. I only disagree with your mischaracterization of the trade and how you keep moving the goalposts on your opinion it. As I said, it was clearly a last ditch effort to try to salvage the season that backfired. It’s pretty asinine to insinuate that the team’s cap issues this season are management’s fault, when the Miller extension hasn’t even kicked in. It’s just totally missing the point

Boeser extension and 3 years term (very Benning) on top of Mikheyev capped themselves out.

It’s asinine to be passing the blame anywhere else for this year’s capped out rendition.

Trading a 2nd to get marginally more space than waiving Dickinson, to put lipstick on the pig is not something that deserves praise.

 

[racerjoe]

I wonder if it's part of the plan to bring in some of these players like Schenn and Bear, let them play well then trade off the profit. That would be pretty standard positive asset management.

I think with some players it is. Others they wanted to keep. I don't know about Bear for sure, I am just going from what we have heard, but I do take all of that with a grain of salt as the insiders don't seem to know too much.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Boeser extension and 3 years term (very Benning) on top of Mikheyev capped themselves out.

It’s asinine to be passing the blame anywhere else for this year’s capped out rendition.

Trading a 2nd to get marginally more space than waiving Dickinson, to put lipstick on the pig is not something that deserves praise.

I agree. I think having spent tens of millions on replacement level players in OEL, Myers, Pearson, etc. would be a bigger detriment to the cap structure than Boeser and Mikheyev, but I’m happy to agree to disagree here.

 

[4Twenty]

I’ve provided you multiple examples on the differences between the two management groups that you have conveniently ignored. Why bother?

The problem with this take is there’s barely one season of transactions you’re comparing to 8 seasons.

Fact of that matter is this is very much the same core group as previous. It very much feels like an extension of the previous regime.

The Miller extension (what does it matter if it’s kicked yet) and 3 years to Brock are the biggest moves they’ve made.

Doubling down on Benning’s core is the major parallel. Others like to blame ownership for this…but managers need to manage…up and down.

 

[Nucker101]

I agree. I think having spent tens of millions on replacement level players in OEL, Myers, Pearson, etc. would be a bigger detriment to the cap structure than Boeser and Mikheyev, but I’m happy to agree to disagree here.

That's a low bar though, this team needs to do better than the Boeser contract if they want to turn this team around. We need to get over the "at least it's not Benning level" mindset

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The problem with this take is there’s barely one season of transactions you’re comparing to 8 seasons.

Fact of that matter is this is very much the same core group as previous. It very much feels like an extension of the previous regime.

The Miller extension (what does it matter if it’s kicked yet) and 3 years to Brock are the biggest moves they’ve made.

Doubling down on Benning’s core is the major parallel. Others like to blame ownership for this…but managers need to manage…up and down.

Your first paragraph is just incorrect. I am not comparing 8 years of transactions. OEL was acquired in the last few months of Benning’s time here. Pearson was extended recently. Myers signing was a few years back but not 8 years.

I agree with your points, just not how you’re phrasing them. We were originally discussing this season, so the Miller extension is not applicable. That’s not to dismiss your point, just that it’s not relevant to the initial discussion that I was engaged in.

I agree with most of your post. I took issue with the other poster saying both management groups are basically the same, when there are clearly differences in their approaches.

 

[4Twenty]

I agree. I think having spent tens of millions on replacement level players in OEL, Myers, Pearson, etc. would be a bigger detriment to the cap structure than Boeser and Mikheyev, but I’m happy to agree to disagree here.

It’s not even an agree to disagree. This seasons roster was capped out based on their execution.

They knew the replacement level players were on the roster.

Those deals effected the immediate season. To “agree to disagree” after one comment by me is a weird stance but sure…..agree to disagree

 

[4Twenty]

Your first paragraph is just incorrect. I am not comparing 8 years of transactions. OEL was acquired in the last few months of Benning’s time here. Pearson was extended recently. Myers signing was a few years back but not 8 years.

I agree with your points, just not how you’re phrasing them. We were originally discussing this season, so the Miller extension is not applicable. That’s not to dismiss your point, just that it’s not relevant to the initial discussion that I was engaged in.

I agree with most of your post. I took issue with the other poster saying both management groups are basically the same, when there are clearly differences in their approaches.

This wasn’t you below mentioning moves made in the first 3 months of Benning, weird…..

Their “approaches” lead to similar results. I go by what I see.

Pouliot, Vey, Baertschi certainly doesn’t seem miles different than Bear, Dermott, and Stillman.


Loose with picks chasing a retool on the fly is very similar.

While I haven’t been a big fan of current management so far, this doesn’t seem fair or accurate.

Previous management had no problem losing assets to free agency while they were outside playoff contention (Hamhuis, Miller, etc.). Current management already proved they will deal UFAs with the Motte trade.

Previous management had no problems giving out $12 million contracts to bottom 6 forwards (Beagle, Roussel, etc.). Current management has been fairly frugal (Lazar, Joshua, etc.).

Previous management had no problem trading fairly high draft picks for reclamation projects (Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, etc.). Current management has gone for much lower risk transactions (Studnicka is probably the closest comparable).

Previous management appears to have rejected analytics and often overpaid for players based on their draft pedigree and outdated reputations (Gudbranson, OEL) while current management appear to be less trigger happy and not offering valuable assets for shitty overpaid players.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

That's a low bar though, this team needs to do better than the Boeser contract if they want to turn this team around. We need to get over the "at least it's not Benning level" mindset

I agree. I think it’s misguided and an over simplification to say both management groups are the same, which is where this disagreement arose.

This wasn’t you below mentioning moves made in the first 3 months of Benning, weird…..

Their “approaches” lead to similar results. I go by what I see.

Pouliot, Vey, Baertschi certainly doesn’t seem miles different than Bear, Dermott, and Stillman.


Loose with picks chasing a retool on the fly is very similar.

You’re conflating two separate arguments into one. First we were discussing this season’s cap structure, now we’re going back to differences between management philosophies. The former was what you disagreed with originally in terms of this season’s cap structure; the latter was in response to another poster saying both management groups are the same.

 

[Hodgy]

It’s not even an agree to disagree. This seasons roster was capped out based on their execution.

They knew the replacement level players were on the roster.

Those deals effected the immediate season. To “agree to disagree” after one comment by me is a weird stance but sure…..agree to disagree

I do agree that it is frustrating that they signed Boeser and Mikheyev and didn't leave themselves any cap space, and as a result, needed to trade a 2nd to dump Dickinson...only to then spend the cap savings on a pretty marginal player in Ethan Bear. Overall, its not very impressive. Mikheyev in isolation looks like a good signing, and while I never liked the Boeser signing and would have traded him I understand how they ended up where they did.

Overall though I think its pretty obvious that this team's major weakness is defense. Don't get me wrong, I still don't think they are very good otherwise, but with a better defense I think they could be in a playoff spot. But I think there is an incorrect narrative that their management of the cap led them to being unable to acquire a defensemen. I don't think this is the case. JR has stated that they were in on all the defensemen this year, and based on when Mikheyev was signed, it would appear to me that he was signed only after they felt they had exhausted their options on defense. And to be fair, once you get into the season, there are not too many "non-rental" defensemen that are available so I can see why they would spend the money on Mikheyev,

 

[4Twenty]

I agree. I think it’s misguided and an over simplification to say both management groups are the same, which is where this disagreement arose.



You’re conflating two separate arguments into one. First we were discussing this season’s cap structure, now we’re going back to differences between management philosophies. The former was what you disagreed with originally in terms of this season’s cap structure; the latter was in response to another poster saying both management groups are the same.

Feels like you’re moving the goalposts while accusing others of the same. Agree to disagree. Cheers.

I do agree that it is frustrating that they signed Boeser and Mikheyev and didn't leave themselves any cap space, and as a result, needed to trade a 2nd to dump Dickinson...only to then spend the cap savings on a pretty marginal player in Ethan Bear. Overall, its not very impressive. Mikheyev in isolation looks like a good signing, and while I never liked the Boeser signing and would have traded him I understand how they ended up where they did.

Overall though I think its pretty obvious that this team's major weakness is defense. Don't get me wrong, I still don't think they are very good otherwise, but with a better defense I think they could be in a playoff spot. But I think there is an incorrect narrative that their management of the cap led them to being unable to acquire a defensemen. I don't think this is the case. JR has stated that they were in on all the defensemen this year, and based on when Mikheyev was signed, it would appear to me that he was signed only after they felt they had exhausted their options on defense. And to be fair, once you get into the season, there are not too many "non-rental" defensemen that are available so I can see why they would spend the money on Mikheyev,

JR said they couldn’t do Bear without the Dickinson dump ie their spending created it.

The fact they spent even more money on not kids forwards but wingers when their D sucks is the gripe for me.

 

[Hodgy]

This wasn’t you below mentioning moves made in the first 3 months of Benning, weird…..

Their “approaches” lead to similar results. I go by what I see.

Pouliot, Vey, Baertschi certainly doesn’t seem miles different than Bear, Dermott, and Stillman.


Loose with picks chasing a retool on the fly is very similar.

Actually, those players do seem "miles" different to me.

First off, Stillman was more or less a throw in. We all know the second round pick was traded to dump Dickinson. this is consistent with the market rate for cap space. Accordingly, it is disingenuous comparing him to players Benning paid high picks for while not getting any cap space.

Pouliot, Vey and Baertshi were all not NHL players at the time they were acquired. Vey had played 18 NHL games, Beertshi had played 66 and Pouliot had played 67, but the latter two played these games over 2-4 seasons so were never NHL regulars. Bear when acquired had played 190 games and Dermott had played 251. Both had been NHL regulars although admittedly Bear was struggling to get into Carolina's lineup. Overall, I don't think these players are very similar targets.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Feels like you’re moving the goalposts while accusing others of the same. Agree to disagree. Cheers.

JR said they couldn’t do Bear without the Dickinson dump ie their spending created it.

The fact they spent even more money on not kids forwards but wingers when their D sucks is the gripe for me.

I’m really not moving the goalposts. I’ll try to break it down a bit so maybe we have some clarity.

I originally provided differences between management because I disagreed with the poster Breakers on the two management groups being the same, as there are clear differences. You then chimed in about how this group mismanaged the cap this season (which they did, I agree, just that there were clearly worse contracts already weighing down the roster from past management). You then referenced my points concerning a different disagreement, which weren’t applicable to what we were discussing (cap structure of this season). I’m not sure if it’s a reading comprehension issue or purposefully mischaracterizing an argument as a “gotcha”, but I hope you can at least now appreciate the difference.

 

[Hodgy]

JR said they couldn’t do Bear without the Dickinson dump ie their spending created it.

The fact they spent even more money on not kids forwards but wingers when their D sucks is the gripe for me.

I agree on Bear. But that was a mid season trade for a marginal player. I didn't like it. But it also doesn't really change my point in that I don't think there are non-rental defensemen readily available during the season so even if they had cap space I don't think they could be acquiring a top four defenesmen at this point. At the deadline? Sure, but at that point it would likely be too late for this sorry lot. So again, I don't think being "capped out" at this point has really precluded them form getting a top four defensement.

And again, you can gripe about them spending money on wingers when their D sucks, but again, you are missing the point as your gripe implies they signed Mikheyev instead of acquiring a top four defensemen. This implication doesn't add up for the reasons I stated above (i.e., the evidence suggests they signed Mikheyev after exhausting defense options). Of course you can argue that we should have traded a 2023 first for a top four defensemen but that's a different topic all together.

 

[valkynax]

I think with some players it is. Others they wanted to keep. I don't know about Bear for sure, I am just going from what we have heard, but I do take all of that with a grain of salt as the insiders don't seem to know too much.

Yeah it would be a great change for us to see positive asset management again.

 

[Delocatedfan]

I don’t think we see change in coaching until the season is over. If this management accepts we are in free fall to the bottom (and a top five pick) why would they change coaches and risk a bump that improves their league standing and hurts their draft spot?

Yeah Boudreau is here for the full season I meant Yeo/Cull replacing Shaw/Walker

 

[Green Blank Stare]

A smart management team would turn over a chunk of this roster before the deadline. Sit Pettersson down and explain they're punting on this season, potentially next as well, but he is the centerpiece they're building everything around.

Horvat, Garland and Boeser should not be on this team post-deadline. If someone will bite on Miller, ship him as well. OEL's probably impossible to move so that's a sunk cost but Myers and Pearson should be somewhat feasible.

Pettersson, Kuzmenko (have to re-sign him because of his chemistry with Petey), Mikheyev and Hughes are the only guys I care about going forward.

 

[Green Blank Stare]

 

[Canucker]

Damned toxic media and their fancy stats!