Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Some creativity and forward thinking around the league.

Meanwhile in van its the same old paying 2nds for replacement level goons and minimal gains compared to just waiving players..

(Yeah yeah i know already wait and see if theres follow up moves, and if not wait and see wome more, save ur energy)

The players I wanted to see signed this year in UFA were Phil Kessel and Nic Deslauriers. I would not have a wanted Deslauriers at the term Philly gave. The group is burned. Have some fun.

 

[joelCAMEL]

i'm not sure what you're looking at for toronto, probably a bunch of players that capfriendly simply has on the pro roster.. but basically it came out today that when they send down Robertson, they will be compliant by $4 .. yes.. 4. they will then play opening night 1 man short assuming tavares is not ready (likely) - then qualify for emergency recall - then recall robertson.

I mentioned Toronto because credulous said Toronto did it correctly, and I could not see where Toronto drops $7.8 mill ... your example of Robertson @ $800k and Tavares @ $11 mill exceeds $7.8 mill

Is there a link to where Toronto is compliant by $4, then maybe I can begin to understand it better. If not, then I accept the info that you guys have provided and am happy to learn something new.

 

[andora]

I mentioned Toronto because credulous said Toronto did it correctly, and I could not see where Toronto drops $7.8 ... your example of Robertson @ $800k and Tavares @ $11 mill exceeds $7.8

Is there a link to where Toronto is compliant by $4, then maybe I can begin to understand it better. If not, then I accept the info that you guys have provided and am happy to learn something new.

This was a little earlier.. havent played with it myself

 

[joelCAMEL]

This was a little earlier.. havent played with it myself

the leafs did something really smart i wish the canucks had also had the foresight to do:



basically by waiting until the last minute to sign ZAR the leafs are able to get right up to the cap before using LTIR and maximize their space for the year. the canucks could have done this with dekeyser (or some other camp invitee) and then buried him in the AHL or maybe even have talked lazar or joshua into doing this

Additional information posted after this shows Toronto still needed to send Robertson to the AHL to become compliant by $4. Vancouver would have to use Ferland and Demott to become compliant by $21,666.

Does Toronto gain any significant advantage by being closer to the cap?

 

[credulous]

How are you giving them extra money after training camp?

the same way florida and tampa bay did it. you sign them to a pto instead of a regular contract and finalize the contract when you know what roster you want to submit and you know how much it needs to be for

the canucks could have done this with dekeyser and then immediately buried him. all it would cost is money

 

[Bubbles]

Some creativity and forward thinking around the league.

Meanwhile in van its the same old paying 2nds for replacement level goons and minimal gains compared to just waiving players..

(Yeah yeah i know already wait and see if theres follow up moves, and if not wait and see wome more, save ur energy)

The Leafs have Brandon Pridham as AGM, who helped write the CBA. And he can always call the help of the other AGM, fellow cap wizard Laurence Gilman.

Still amazed we sent down Cory Schneider, Jeff Tambellini, and Alexandre Bolduc to the Moose and called up Lee Sweatt to get under the cap.

 

[tantalum]

Reading posts the last few days I guess I’m still confused that after a GM spent 7 years destroying nearly every aspect of the franchise, people honestly believe the new management group should have fixed nearly everything in under a year. If only that were possible.

Not saying I’ve been pleased with everything or that they haven’t made mistakes. I’m not and they have. But opening day of the 22/23 season is far, far, FAR too early to be judging the job they’ve done. The earliest really is the start of 23/24 and even then no one should be expecting a contender.

 

[andora]

Additional information posted after this shows Toronto still needed to send Robertson to the AHL to become compliant by $4. Vancouver would have to use Ferland and Demott to become compliant by $21,666.

Does Toronto gain any significant advantage by being closer to the cap?

Yes that was with robertson being sent down and the leafs having to play one man dhort in game 1

 

[andora]

the same way florida and tampa bay did it. you sign them to a pto instead of a regular contract and finalize the contract when you know what roster you want to submit and you know how much it needs to be for

the canucks could have done this with dekeyser and then immediately buried him. all it would cost is money

So which do we want.. room by the end to fit the elc bonuses or to max another few hundred thousand

 

[4Twenty]

Reading posts the last few days I guess I’m still confused that after a GM spent 7 years destroying nearly every aspect of the franchise, people honestly believe the new management group should have fixed nearly everything in under a year. If only that were possible.

Not saying I’ve been pleased with everything or that they haven’t made mistakes. I’m not and they have. But opening day of the 22/23 season is far, far, FAR too early to be judging the job they’ve done. The earliest really is the start of 23/24 and even then no one should be expecting a contender.

It appears to me they’re being taken to task for overspending on the wing, coming back with the same blueline, and essentially going for it.

Given they’re going for it, I don’t think it’s fair that what they’ve done can’t be analyzed and critiqued. Nor do I think writing off the next two seasons from evaluation makes any sense in any line of work.

This management has chosen this path.


Just the same as the last one decided their own path.


That folks don’t want analysis or critique until next November is silly. Moves like Bonino, R.Miller, and Dorsett explained a lot about the last crew. I don’t get why people can’t make judgements on Mikheyev, and the bloated spending at wing.

Surely nobody is saying they should be removed. So I don’t get the complaints.


Just because average or whatever you folks are calling it is better than Benning, doesn’t mean good. The org needs better than average.

 

[Hodgy]

It appears to me they’re being taken to task for overspending on the wing, coming back with the same blueline, and essentially going for it.

Given they’re going for it, I don’t think it’s fair that what they’ve done can’t be analyzed and critiqued. Nor do I think writing off the next two seasons from evaluation makes any sense in any line of work.

This management has chosen this path.


Just the same as the last one decided their own path.


That folks don’t want analysis or critique until next November is silly. Moves like Bonino, R.Miller, and Dorsett explained a lot about the last crew. I don’t get why people can’t make judgements on Mikheyev, and the bloated spending at wing.

Surely nobody is saying they should be removed. So I don’t get the complaints.


Just because average or whatever you folks are calling it is better than Benning, doesn’t mean good. The org needs better than average.

Generally speaking, no one is saying that management shouldn’t be critiqued at all. So when those on here disagree with you they are not doing so because they think no one should criticize management. To think this is a straw man that doesn’t advance discussion.

Most on here disagree with you because they think you are: 1) drawing unfair comparisons to the last management; 2) not appropriately recognizing the reality of the current situation for this management; and/or 3) not being patient enough.

I realize you think that you are not being overly critical, but even in the Stillman trade thread where you thought your response was “positive”, you also thought the cost of getting rid of Dickinson was “high” which I think is patently false when you look at recent cap dump transactions (which posters had discussed in that thread). So, simultaneously, you are both criticizing this management for not being aggressive enough but then when they are aggressive you are unfairly criticizing them for the way in which they are aggressive.

 

[rypper]

We haven't even had a chance to see Mikheyev play yet, how can we judge that move?

 

[Vector]

We haven't even had a chance to see Mikheyev play yet, how can we judge that move?

I saw him skate for a bit, didn’t immediately gel with Pettersson, then blew his knee out. I have now completely concluded that he’s a bust.

 

[4Twenty]

Generally speaking, no one is saying that management shouldn’t be critiqued at all. So when those on here disagree with you they are not doing so because they think no one should criticize management. To think this is a straw man that doesn’t advance discussion.

Most on here disagree with you because they think you are: 1) drawing unfair comparisons to the last management; 2) not appropriately recognizing the reality of the current situation for this management; and/or 3) not being patient enough.

I realize you think that you are not being overly critical, but even in the Stillman trade thread where you thought your response was “positive”, you also thought the cost of getting rid of Dickinson was “high” which I think is patently false when you look at recent cap dump transactions (which posters had discussed in that thread). So, simultaneously, you are both criticizing this management for not being aggressive enough but then when they are aggressive you are unfairly criticizing them for the way in which they are aggressive.

Uh the post I just responded to said they can’t be judged.

Secondly that I can say “I loved getting rid of a winger” and not be considered positive is a you problem.

It seems high to only be clearing $1.35m in cap based on the face value of the transaction. It’s not a lot more than they would’ve got by burying him. But again I like the idea of the deal and hope it’s stitched into another larger more impactful deal. On its own it doesn’t come across as aggressive.

I don’t care to re-hash why you disagree with me. I was addressing someone else.

 

[4Twenty]

He makes $4.75m.

If you can’t question the importance and value of adding a high priced middle lineup winger coming off a double his career shooting % season on a team with tons of cap spent on the wing, what can be questioned.

Even if he’s Jannik Hansen, that’s still rich in a position of depth on the roster (that was also just devalued heavily).

But I get it guys it’s a new era. Let’s be positive.

 

[mathonwy]

He makes $4.75m.

If you can’t question the importance and value of adding a high priced middle lineup winger coming off a double his career shooting % season on a team with tons of cap spent on the wing, what can be questioned.

Even if he’s Jannik Hansen, that’s still rich in a position of depth on the roster (that was also just devalued heavily).

But I get it guys it’s a new era. Let’s be positive.

We can't all be positive because that would be pretty boring.

 

[credulous]

i just don't see mikheyev as a top 6 forward. he needs to be the greatest pker of all time to come close to being worth that deal imo. pearson is a more useful player and makes 2/3rds what mikheyev does and he's like the poster boy for 'overpaid' and 'unnecessary' around here

 

[MarkMM]

well they just paid a 2nd to get out from a cap situation that was entirely of their own making. seems pretty benningesque to me

Agree that they put themselves in this cap situation and then had to pay to get out of it, but again this is nothing close to the damage that Benning did with his Eriksson, OEL, Gudbranson, Beagle, Roussel, Sutter, etc, blunders.

4Twenty keep pushing the agenda that this management is "no different" than Benning is what we're taking issue with, not that anyone thinks this management has thus far been spectacular.

It appears to me they’re being taken to task for overspending on the wing, coming back with the same blueline, and essentially going for it.

Given they’re going for it, I don’t think it’s fair that what they’ve done can’t be analyzed and critiqued. Nor do I think writing off the next two seasons from evaluation makes any sense in any line of work.

This management has chosen this path.


Just the same as the last one decided their own path.


That folks don’t want analysis or critique until next November is silly. Moves like Bonino, R.Miller, and Dorsett explained a lot about the last crew. I don’t get why people can’t make judgements on Mikheyev, and the bloated spending at wing.

Surely nobody is saying they should be removed. So I don’t get the complaints.


Just because average or whatever you folks are calling it is better than Benning, doesn’t mean good. The org needs better than average.

Agree with all those criticisms, I do think we're wing heavy, I wouldn't have signed Miller over Horvat or if that was going to be the plan then I wouldn't haev signed Boeser, and if we did go with Boeser then I wouldn't have signed Mikheyev, at least not until dealing with the cap some other way (trading Garland, for example).

Then we wouldn't have needed to lose a 2nd for Dickinson.

All that is agreed.

But you unnecsesarily and illogically overreach when you keep pushing the "this is no better than Benning days" which rightly triggers you being called out for hysterical exaggeration.

I think it'll take a couple years to get things back on track, and both the prices seen on the market and the lack of movement lead me to accept that it'll be a slow start to make these moves. That's why I'll reserve full judgement because I do think their timeline makes sense. I like some of their moves (investing in player development, Kuzmenko, some of their free agent prospect gets) and I don't like others (management of the cap).

It's a fair point to debate whether we should be building for the future or going for it with the windown that Demko and Miller's contracts have for us.

But the hyperbole and hysteria by nonsensically pushing the Benning comparisons is just silly.

 

[credulous]

the benning comparisons are tired; agreed. i don't get why people are giving this group so much rope though. they've done nothing to inspire confidence so far

their best moves were all gimmes. they didn't scout or discover kuzmenko. they get credit for convincing him to sign in vancouver over edmonton or whatever for sure. same with lazar, joshua, aman, etc. those are salesmanship successes not scouting or player development successes. i like what they did with the bottom end of the roster but that's table stakes for a winning team. if you can't find cheap and effective depth then you have no business managing a roster

the contracts with term they've given out (miller, boeser, mikheyev) all come with a fair amount of risk and none look to be bargains. they've gone back and forth on first miller and now horvat which while pragmatic doesn't really speak to their long term planning ability. they're facing a cap crunch next summer with 8 roster slots to sign for ~12ish million and no clear path to freeing up any space without sacrificing a piece like garland (a player who while not great may be their best winger). they were unable to clear space to cover bonuses last season which makes it harder to clear space to cover bonuses this season and could face another ~2 mil in bonus overages being pushed into next season. they were arguably forced into a situation where they had to pay a 2nd to clear cap just to set their opening day roster. good cap management is basically free. you just need to invest time in understanding the cba and then execute

maybe worst of all they're going into a season where they plan to compete with schenn, poolman, myers and burroughs as their right side defense. you can't say they don't know this isn't a problem as they identified it themselves from day one. i respect that they can't force a move that isn't there but if it's literally impossible to put together a credible defense then this was a year to sit back and prepare for next year. they've done exactly the opposite

i'm not calling them 'the worst management group ever' or anything hyperbolic. i do have high expectations for them though. i'm going to be critical until they do something to live up to those expectations

 

[TruGr1t]

i just don't see mikheyev as a top 6 forward. he needs to be the greatest pker of all time to come close to being worth that deal imo. pearson is a more useful player and makes 2/3rds what mikheyev does and he's like the poster boy for 'overpaid' and 'unnecessary' around here

That's because he's not a top-six forward, or hasn't been. As Drance is fond of citing, he negatively impacted scoring whenever Toronto moved him into the top six and tried to increase his offensive usage. I can't remember the exact stat, but Nylander and Tavares produced at a better rate with, I think, Galchenyuk and Kerfoot than Mikheyev on their line.

 

[Tomatoes11]

All this strong down the middle talk is nice and all but while Miller is strong at face offs, at least stronger than EP, he cheats on the offensive side over his Center duties way too much. For that reason, I consider him more of a winger. I know some people don’t see EP as a center because of the face offs but he does all the other center duties quite well so I do consider him one.

Where it really falls apart though is Calgary is actually also quite strong down the middle with lindholm, kadri, and backlund but their D is also way WAY WAY better than ours.

We can’t just be strong down the middle and have tire fire D because there are other teams also strong down the middle but with much less holes. And that’s if EP and Miller are even considered in the middle. Right now the best description for us is that we have a lot of good forwards but terrible D. So the people that actual argue that we should keep all our forwards are crazy imo. Lol

As far as new management goes. There only bad moves were 3rd for a dermott, 2nd to cap dump Dickinson, re signing Boeser and miller, and maybe the Mikayev signing(at least the timing is bad if it lead to the 2nd as a cap dump move). However, literally every single move that dim made was bad so its going to take a lot more for them to be in the same conversation as dim. Mistakes happen so I can give them a little more rope. I prefer their doing nothing approach over dims going nuts approach at the very least. Patience is a virtue. I have always been a if you are not sure, don’t do it type of approach person and I agree that’s how the Canucks management should be too but they need to keep ALL of their picks for this to work. Because if you don’t make any moves, at least you have picks and the farm to replenish the team when necessary. If you trade all your picks, have no cap, have no farm, AND don’t do anything or make it worse by trading picks just for a little bit of cap, then you are in trouble. Let’s hope new management just stops now.

 

[andora]

the benning comparisons are tired; agreed. i don't get why people are giving this group so much rope though. they've done nothing to inspire confidence so far

their best moves were all gimmes. they didn't scout or discover kuzmenko. they get credit for convincing him to sign in vancouver over edmonton or whatever for sure. same with lazar, joshua, aman, etc. those are salesmanship successes not scouting or player development successes. i like what they did with the bottom end of the roster but that's table stakes for a winning team. if you can't find cheap and effective depth then you have no business managing a roster

the contracts with term they've given out (miller, boeser, mikheyev) all come with a fair amount of risk and none look to be bargains. they've gone back and forth on first miller and now horvat which while pragmatic doesn't really speak to their long term planning ability. they're facing a cap crunch next summer with 8 roster slots to sign for ~12ish million and no clear path to freeing up any space without sacrificing a piece like garland (a player who while not great may be their best winger). they were unable to clear space to cover bonuses last season which makes it harder to clear space to cover bonuses this season and could face another ~2 mil in bonus overages being pushed into next season. they were arguably forced into a situation where they had to pay a 2nd to clear cap just to set their opening day roster. good cap management is basically free. you just need to invest time in understanding the cba and then execute

maybe worst of all they're going into a season where they plan to compete with schenn, poolman, myers and burroughs as their right side defense. you can't say they don't know this isn't a problem as they identified it themselves from day one. i respect that they can't force a move that isn't there but if it's literally impossible to put together a credible defense then this was a year to sit back and prepare for next year. they've done exactly the opposite

i'm not calling them 'the worst management group ever' or anything hyperbolic. i do have high expectations for them though. i'm going to be critical until they do something to live up to those expectations

With dickinson now gone .. next off seasons outlook is a lot better than it was. To simply have a 20 man roster they only have an expected 2 open spots provided the following

- stillman is on next years roster
- aman and joshua hold as competant 4th line players

With this they have about 12.5 to use.. with horvat, hoglander and kuzmenko being the only prominent 'names'. Stillman off gives it about 13.5. I believe horvat is traded so 13.5 for kuzmenko and hoglander.. maybe 7 at most combined?. 6.5 left over for defence and depth.. not counting other potential flex trades.

I believed one of the goals this season was to move off one of the 4 problem contracts.. and it happened early thanks to injuries - now the goal becomes focusing on one of poolman pearson or myers...

Then even throw in a potential value trade in garland or boeser..

I am optimistic with the details in these first steps - i will be interested in seeing:

- what players if any are added this year without term to help this year only
- what they do to keep 2 million open by the end of the year to fit the bonuses

And how these two things battle eachother

 

[krutovsdonut]

a lot of but benning going on this morning.

mikhaeyev does have a feel of a benning era pro scouting disaster. too much money and term for a guy who is only worth that much if you project better performance than he has ever achieved. that's the blueprint..

but i think the real problem is playing in the non-replacement level ufa market at all. it's like criticizing someone for losing at roulette instead of for playing roulette. the odds are against you. that's the game.

so why does our strategy still include it? because i believe if we are going to keep doing it we will be in cap hell forever because of the inevitable misses and resulting deadweight.

you look at a successful team like colorado and all they do in the ufa market is bottom feed.

i would love for someone to do a comparison of $2m aav plus ufa spending among nhl teams over the years and see where we sit.

 

[4Twenty]

Agree that they put themselves in this cap situation and then had to pay to get out of it, but again this is nothing close to the damage that Benning did with his Eriksson, OEL, Gudbranson, Beagle, Roussel, Sutter, etc, blunders.

4Twenty keep pushing the agenda that this management is "no different" than Benning is what we're taking issue with, not that anyone thinks this management has thus far been spectacular.



Agree with all those criticisms, I do think we're wing heavy, I wouldn't have signed Miller over Horvat or if that was going to be the plan then I wouldn't haev signed Boeser, and if we did go with Boeser then I wouldn't have signed Mikheyev, at least not until dealing with the cap some other way (trading Garland, for example).

Then we wouldn't have needed to lose a 2nd for Dickinson.

All that is agreed.

But you unnecsesarily and illogically overreach when you keep pushing the "this is no better than Benning days" which rightly triggers you being called out for hysterical exaggeration.

I think it'll take a couple years to get things back on track, and both the prices seen on the market and the lack of movement lead me to accept that it'll be a slow start to make these moves. That's why I'll reserve full judgement because I do think their timeline makes sense. I like some of their moves (investing in player development, Kuzmenko, some of their free agent prospect gets) and I don't like others (management of the cap).

It's a fair point to debate whether we should be building for the future or going for it with the windown that Demko and Miller's contracts have for us.

But the hyperbole and hysteria by nonsensically pushing the Benning comparisons is just silly.

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration let alone an extreme one.

I understand why that’s triggering because it was so devastating for it to go on for 8 seasons, but I’ve made my points about it. Not sure why you want to keep discussing them.

Look at all the stuff we agree on.

 

[tantalum]

It appears to me they’re being taken to task for overspending on the wing, coming back with the same blueline, and essentially going for it.

Given they’re going for it, I don’t think it’s fair that what they’ve done can’t be analyzed and critiqued. Nor do I think writing off the next two seasons from evaluation makes any sense in any line of work.

This management has chosen this path.


Just the same as the last one decided their own path.


That folks don’t want analysis or critique until next November is silly. Moves like Bonino, R.Miller, and Dorsett explained a lot about the last crew. I don’t get why people can’t make judgements on Mikheyev, and the bloated spending at wing.

Surely nobody is saying they should be removed. So I don’t get the complaints.


Just because average or whatever you folks are calling it is better than Benning, doesn’t mean good. The org needs better than average.

I don’t believe “they are going for it”.

I believe they had a plan A that didn’t come to fruition due to a misreading of the market. Something they were not alone in doing btw. Teams and agents alike got caught.

I believe they recognized they were going to have to wait out some contracts or let things develop to a more favorable market position but stil desired to improve the depth of the team in some respect. That ended up being up front as there was very little blueline wise to pursue. I don’t see much that could have been done with the blueline at this point.

I don’t believe they are going all in simply because if they were then they would have been moving heaven and earth to get out from under those contracts. They didn’t and haven’t yet done that. They are balancing trying to make tangible improvements while also trying to restock organizational depth. The depth up front for the origination is improved. It will help despite the blueline still being a major concern.

The blueline through the organization is a sticking point for sure. It needs to be addressed. While I dislike the pick going out the window I do like that they (1) got out from one of the contacts. Perhaps the easiest one and (2) some blueline depth came back at the same time.

It’s not pretty. It’s not neat but I fail to see “going for it at this time”. I see they have taken the opportunity to build some depth up front which maybe can be used moving forward to rebalance the team. But there is no selling the future to go for it. Far from it, they’ve been pretty diligent thus far trying to get things in place to improve the farm system and stocking of the farm system.