Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[MarkMM]

Are they an improvement? The movie seems to play out the same way every year since the Gillis years.

It's a low bar, and I'm not even saying it's an acceptable bar, but nothing this management has done has been as damaging as the multitude of things that Benning did every offseason.

So the idea that this management is not an improvement is so provably wrong for the simple reason that even if they do nothing then they're already a huge improvement on Benning who actively crippled the team repeatedly with bad decisions.

I don't think management has done enough, but I also feel they aren't done, so will judge when we see more of their work within the timeframe of two years they transparently laid out.

But the only way to say that there is no difference between Rutherford and Alvin vs Benning is to completely ignore what Benning did. Until this management does deals like signing Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, Gudbranson, Poolman, Ferland, trading for OEL, trading Tyffoli and then runnnig out of time to get him back, etc, then no, there can be no straight-faced saying that these management teams are similar.

 

[credulous]

But the only way to say that there is no difference between Rutherford and Alvin vs Benning is to completely ignore what Benning did. Until this management does deals like signing Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, Gudbranson, Poolman, Ferland, trading for OEL, trading Tyffoli and then runnnig out of time to get him back, etc, then no, there can be no straight-faced saying that these management teams are similar.

well they just paid a 2nd to get out from a cap situation that was entirely of their own making. seems pretty benningesque to me

 

[Vector]

well they just paid a 2nd to get out from a cap situation that was entirely of their own making. seems pretty benningesque to me

Entirely…their…own…making….

“Entirely their own making”

Entirely…

That is an outright lie and you know it.

 

[credulous]

they had ~12 million in cap space early in june. dickinson had a bad contract that they can't be blamed for but they can be blamed for running so tight to the cap

 

[Ruthervin]

If Benning had played things a little differently after the 2020 Bubble, we could have had the following line-up today:

Kuzmenko-Pettersson-Podkolzin
Pearson-Miller-Boeser
Garland-Horvat-Mikheyev
Dickinson-Lazar-Hoglander [Joshua]

Hughes-Tanev
OEL-Myers
Dermott-Schenn [Rathbone]

Demko
Martin

 

[andora]

There now we can be flexible and be ready to pounce on the magical deals when they come up.

Solid move they did it early. We are still pick neutral

 

[Melvin]

well they just paid a 2nd to get out from a cap situation that was entirely of their own making. seems pretty benningesque to me

Huh?

 

[Vector]

Huh?

You heard the man. ENTIRELY of their own making.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I’m gonna take a guess and say the reason why Dorrie got fired was because she leaked the Dermott injury to the media?

 

[Vector]

I’m gonna take a guess and say the reason why Dorrie got fired was because she leaked the Dermott injury to the media?

Hmm? The media were at the practice and watched him get escorted out.

 

[Tomatoes11]

Honestly I’d rather have that 2nd than paying mikayev 4.75. I’d rather have that 2nd, and whatever assets we get in trading them, than any of Horvat, Boeser , and miller. Sure chances are it’s not going to be a rasmus Anderssen but we will never know until we keep these picks and draft them. If that 2nd became an Anderssen at 850k cap hit that would help us so so so much. We really should fix our farm and start hoarding picks asap instead of wasting 2nds and 3rds on dermott‘s and cap dumps Just to squeak into the “playoffs”.

 

[rypper]

Doesn't it seem obvious that a buyout wasn't an option? I think if they could have, they would have.

 

[credulous]

after the dickinson move the canucks can start the season with dermott on ltir and dries, rathbone, wolanin and poolman demoted. that gets them within 100k of the upper cap limit and they can then put ferland on ltir and bring poolman, dries and rathbone back up. that gives them a 22 man roster and 850k in cap space

pettersson
miller
horvat
garland
kuzmenko
podkolzin
pearson
hoglander
lazar
joshua
karlsson
aman
dries

*boeser (ir)
*mikheyev (ir)

hughes
oel
poolman
schenn
burroughs
stillman
rathbone

*myers (ir)

they can also call up dowling or wolanin or pick up someone off waivers

with dickinson instead of stillman on the roster they can demote dickinson, dries and rathbone (keeping poolman and wolanin up) and start with ferland on ltir and get closer to the upper cap limit (within 50k) and then call up one of rathbone or dries and run with a 21 man roster and 600-700k in cap space

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Not impressed with mgmt at all.

Net maverick in drafts picks since they started.

But hey, we need to keep ours picks to restock the prospect pool.

 

[pitseleh]

We absolutely did fill holes though and I think that is the biggest disconnect. No we didn't fix the defense which is absolutely the biggest hole on the team. But I am also glad we aren't forcing something which isn't there. Be patient. This is the Gillis type of approach I like. Be aggressive (sign both russians to fill now holes) but don't force bad moves, be patient and take advantage.

…

My biggest thing is people have been saying things that just isn't realistic. Like again what dman should we have picked up to fix our defense? It just hasn't been there.

This is where I struggle. I agree they should have been patient. But re-signing rather than trading Miller, and not making any moves to bring in future assets, means they have put themselves in a position where they can’t be patient. This is different than Gillis where the core of the team outside the Sedins was entering or before their prime when he came - and even then we only got a few good years before needing to rebuild. We may not even get a few good years here the way things are going.

If management didn’t have a plan to fix the team this offseason, then they should have pushed their window out a couple years. Instead they picked an approach that pushed their window forward but then didn’t show any execution on maximizing that window. My concern is that they picked a strategic direction that they can’t execute on.

Provorov, Marino, Klingberg, and Burns were all players that either moved or were rumoured to be available and have at least potentially improved the team’s defence (of course with some risk). Even Matheson probably would be the teams second or third best defenceman. If the team’s pro scouting wasn’t confident in those players, then they shouldn’t have picked a strategy that needed them to find such a player.

What premium assets does this team even have? Some future first and 2nd rounds picks, Lekkerimaki, Podkolzin, and Rathbone?

That's what gets me. They are just so limited in what they have. If a deal comes along where they need to clear space to accommodate a trade, I have no doubt that they can do it at the same time. There's no reason to spend any assets now if a different maker wasn't available.

I agree. The challenge I have is the mismatch between the strategy and the execution. They picked a difficult strategy to execute on then didn’t execute on it. They shouldn’t have moved money for the sake of moving money, but should have pushed the window out if they couldn’t fix the team’s problems this offseason.

 

[Vector]

I agree. The challenge I have is the mismatch between the strategy and the execution. They picked a difficult strategy to execute on then didn’t execute on it.

/Homer Simpson

Didn't execute on it YET.

/Home Simpson

As has been discussed here at length, I'm willing to wait out their own stated timeline to execute.

 

[pitseleh]

/Homer Simpson

Didn't execute on it YET.

/Home Simpson

As has been discussed here at length, I'm willing to wait out their own stated timeline to execute.

Yeah, that’s reasonable. I do think it is fair to say that their approach has put their eggs into the basket of the next ~3 seasons without extraordinary management. If they prove to be as such then fantastic, but if not then this will be seen as a wasted season.

I don’t have much confidence based on what we have seen so far that they have what it takes - they are fine and certainly miles better than Benning but executing on their strategy is going to require some real smarts

 

[Vector]

Yeah, that’s reasonable. I do think it is fair to say that their approach has put their eggs into the basket of the next ~3 seasons without extraordinary management. If they prove to be as such then fantastic, but if not then this will be seen as a wasted season.

I don’t have much confidence based on what we have seen so far that they have what it takes - they are fine and certainly miles better than Benning but executing on their strategy is going to require some real smarts

I feel like I've been trapped by a monkey's paw because at one point I said I'd be thrilled just to have competent management. And here we are.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I feel like I've been trapped by a monkey's paw because at one point I said I'd be thrilled just to have competent management. And here we are.

Ah yes. The whole “careful what you wish for” thing.

 

[racerjoe]

This is where I struggle. I agree they should have been patient. But re-signing rather than trading Miller, and not making any moves to bring in future assets, means they have put themselves in a position where they can’t be patient. This is different than Gillis where the core of the team outside the Sedins was entering or before their prime when he came - and even then we only got a few good years before needing to rebuild. We may not even get a few good years here the way things are going.

If management didn’t have a plan to fix the team this offseason, then they should have pushed their window out a couple years. Instead they picked an approach that pushed their window forward but then didn’t show any execution on maximizing that window. My concern is that they picked a strategic direction that they can’t execute on.

Provorov, Marino, Klingberg, and Burns were all players that either moved or were rumoured to be available and have at least potentially improved the team’s defence (of course with some risk). Even Matheson probably would be the teams second or third best defenceman. If the team’s pro scouting wasn’t confident in those players, then they shouldn’t have picked a strategy that needed them to find such a player.


I agree. The challenge I have is the mismatch between the strategy and the execution. They picked a difficult strategy to execute on then didn’t execute on it. They shouldn’t have moved money for the sake of moving money, but should have pushed the window out if they couldn’t fix the team’s problems this offseason.

On mobile so this will be quick but a lot of this is wrong. Luongo was older than the twins, so the 3 most important players were older according to your standards. That’s without looking deep, just the flat out 3 most important players.

Provov never moved, we could have signed Klingberg and chose not to which personally I think was smart. Mariano we literally didn’t have the assets to get. If you want Burns I guess I will give you that one.

My issue is it’s one thing to say no plan, another to say don’t force it wait for the right move to show up. This is actually what I think happened with Dick. They waited for the better deal. I agree with what MS was saying in the other thread.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Nobody is advocating to do things “just because”.

I’m advocating doing something that addresses the weakness and kicks open a window. Not passively waiting for contracts and non existent kids in the system.

Well, I asked you a couple of times earlier in the off season what specifically you'd do because you were being critical of management's inaction then and I got nothing but crickets from you.

It's kind of telling that Weegar suddenly springs forth as a potential move. I doubt he was on your radar at the time I had been asking those questions.

The moves that Benning had made were meant to address weaknesses on the team's roster or bolster it. Eriksson was signed to mesh with the Sedins, Sutter was meant to fill the void that Kesler left due to him being a "foundational player", OEL was meant to address issues with the defense.

But to make those moves, management made a number of egregious errors that kneecapped the team in the long run. Those players addressed things relating to the team, but they came with a whole host of issues.

That's what I mean about making moves "just because." If this current management team went whole hog on the first available player that came along, they'd be kneecapping the team much like how Benning's prior moves kneecapped the team.

Signing Miller, in a vacuum, there was nothing wrong with it. But it comes along with no real significant moves made to the roster and dumping available cap money further into the forwards without really addressing the more pressing roster issues and runs counter to the statements made re: cap flexibility or trying to "retool" the team.

They might be exploring options or looking to make an Ehrhoff type deal (I am not holding my breath on that one) and I can appreciate not rushing into the first available deal that 'fits'...but I'm also a little mystified with the other moves management is making.

Also,

You’re drawing conclusions on like 1% of the information.

You don’t think two 1sts and two 2nds and Hog could bring in a quality defensman?

There’s assets. Just ones you’re loathed to move.

A trade like that would have major ramifications for the organization. Unless you were trading for a Delorean and could bring an in-his-prime Lidstrom back, a move like that is insane.

I would be loathe to trade multiple firsts for immediate defensive help because the more pressing issue (having a solid prospect pipeline) is more important than maybe competing for the wild card spot for the next couple of years.

 

[4Twenty]

Well, I asked you a couple of times earlier in the off season what specifically you'd do because you were being critical of management's inaction then and I got nothing but crickets from you.

It's kind of telling that Weegar suddenly springs forth as a potential move. I doubt he was on your radar at the time I had been asking those questions.

The moves that Benning had made were meant to address weaknesses on the team's roster or bolster it. Eriksson was signed to mesh with the Sedins, Sutter was meant to fill the void that Kesler left due to him being a "foundational player", OEL was meant to address issues with the defense.

But to make those moves, management made a number of egregious errors that kneecapped the team in the long run. Those players addressed things relating to the team, but they came with a whole host of issues.

That's what I mean about making moves "just because." If this current management team went whole hog on the first available player that came along, they'd be kneecapping the team much like how Benning's prior moves kneecapped the team.

Signing Miller, in a vacuum, there was nothing wrong with it. But it comes along with no real significant moves made to the roster and dumping available cap money further into the forwards without really addressing the more pressing roster issues and runs counter to the statements made re: cap flexibility or trying to "retool" the team.

They might be exploring options or looking to make an Ehrhoff type deal (I am not holding my breath on that one) and I can appreciate not rushing into the first available deal that 'fits'...but I'm also a little mystified with the other moves management is making.

Crickets because I think asking a random fan with barely any of the information what specifics they would do is a waste of time.

I have referred to things I would have wanted to see done in general all summer.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile to me to list players. I’ve listed what I’d have liked to see in general.

I have offered specifics on taking Brock to arb, Trading Garland for mid picks and zero cap returns etc.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Crickets because I think asking a random fan with barely any of the information what specifics they would do is a waste of time.

Isn't it kind of silly to be making highly critical statements if you don't have any information?

And I wasn't asking for a complete breakdown with a Pierre McGuire-esque level of detail of every moving part in a hypothetical deal. I had just asked you what was it you wanted to see that management could've done so they weren't being passive/inactive.

But now, with the benefit of hindsight, we have a ton of great suggestions from you.

I have referred to things I would have wanted to see done in general all summer.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile to me to list players. I’ve listed what I’d have liked to see in general.

I have offered specifics on taking Brock to arb, Trading Garland for mid picks and zero cap returns etc.

To be honest, I've been severely in and out on here throughout the summer and can only go off of when I had responded to your posts. If you had talked about this elsewhere, cool, but I'm curious as to the timing of those sorts of ideas.

 

[TruGr1t]

On mobile so this will be quick but a lot of this is wrong. Luongo was older than the twins, so the 3 most important players were older according to your standards. That’s without looking deep, just the flat out 3 most important players.

Provov never moved, we could have signed Klingberg and chose not to which personally I think was smart. Mariano we literally didn’t have the assets to get. If you want Burns I guess I will give you that one.

My issue is it’s one thing to say no plan, another to say don’t force it wait for the right move to show up. This is actually what I think happened with Dick. They waited for the better deal. I agree with what MS was saying in the other thread.

If you’d wanted to offer a 2nd to move salary you probably could have done it at any time.

The only thing timing oriented about this move is they got into injury trouble early and effectively had no choice due to roster inefficiency.

Also people should not compare this core to the Sedin core, which was a way better team.

 

[4Twenty]

Isn't it kind of silly to be making highly critical statements if you don't have any information?

And I wasn't asking for a complete breakdown with a Pierre McGuire-esque level of detail of every moving part in a hypothetical deal. I had just asked you what was it you wanted to see that management could've done so they weren't being passive/inactive.

But now, with the benefit of hindsight, we have a ton of great suggestions from you.



To be honest, I've been severely in and out on here throughout the summer and can only go off of when I had responded to your posts. If you had talked about this elsewhere, cool, but I'm curious as to the timing of those sorts of ideas.

No I don’t think so.

My responses were to what they have done.

I speak in generalities because if I don’t and list a player it strays the discussion from my intended purpose.

I listed Weegar because I knew the poster I was responding to was only going to allow defensman who actually moved into the discussion but funnily enough he wasn’t permitted. Not that I care though. My intention wasn’t a discussion on specifics.