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Malkin is the best Russian player ever

pensfan7477 said:
Defensemen and goalies are now better than ever I don't buy that.
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What defensemen are left these days that aren't offensive minded above all else? Very few, indeed. The shutdown defenseman in today's game, is almost non-existent to say the least.

Case in point, Fedorov, Bure, & Mogilny appeared on the scene in the late 80's/early 90's, here are some of the defensemen they had to go up against at that time who were either in or around their prime, or fairly newer in the league.

Chelios
Bourque
Lidstrom
MaCinnis
Leech
Stevens
Zubov
Blake
Ozolinsh
Niedermayer
Murphy
Pronger
Konstantinov (the what if)

Now...do you honestly expect d-men in today's game are anywhere near that small list from a defensive standpoint?

How bout a few goalies:

Roy
Hasek
Brodeur
Vernon
Richter
Potvin
McLean
Belfour
Joseph
Barrasso
Vanbiesbrouk

Again, not many goalies in the league today could match up to the level of competition those goalies had to face, daily, in my opinion.

Granted, no offense, I'm not sure if you recall or were around during that era to watch it unfold, but to me compared to today's game, it's a night and day difference in favor of the former.
 
Kharlamov is untouchable as the best Russian player ever because he was clearly the best player on the best national teams they they have ever iced, and his legend is cemented by the horrible tragedy that killed him in his prime.

Malkin has Ovechkin and Datsyuk (kind of) to compete with for best of his era. Those guys are more akin to the Mikhaelov, Maltsev, Petrov tier that were battling for 2nd place behind Kharlamov.

If you're just looking at raw skills, Ovechkin is the most talented Russian player ever. Malkin only really comes in ahead if you place a heavy bias on team NHL achievements and recency. Let's not forget that Malkin has never reached Ovechkin's peak from a few years ago, and I'm not even sure Crosby has either.
 
Datsyukian Deke said:
What defensemen are left these days that aren't offensive minded above all else? Very few, indeed. The shutdown defenseman in today's game, is almost non-existent to say the least.

Case in point, Fedorov, Bure, & Mogilny appeared on the scene in the late 80's/early 90's, here are some of the defensemen they had to go up against at that time who were either in or around their prime, or fairly newer in the league.

Chelios
Bourque
Lidstrom
MaCinnis
Leech
Stevens
Zubov
Blake
Ozolinsh
Niedermayer
Murphy
Pronger
Konstantinov (the what if)

Now...do you honestly expect d-men in today's game are anywhere near that small list from a defensive standpoint?

How bout a few goalies:

Roy
Hasek
Brodeur
Vernon
Richter
Potvin
McLean
Belfour
Joseph
Barrasso
Vanbiesbrouk

Again, not many goalies in the league today could match up to the level of competition those goalies had to face, daily, in my opinion.

Granted, no offense, I'm not sure if you recall or were around during that era to watch it unfold, but to me compared to today's game, it's a night and day difference in favor of the former.
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You're just looking at the names on the jerseys, not the actual performance on ice. Legends of their time, but the current goalies on average are better. The position has evolved.
 
I don't agree.

First of all, half of your defensemen are offense-first.

Second, comparing NHL then and now is like apples and oranges, different league. It's deeper now.

All those physical, "stay-at-home" defesemen of yesteryear were just big, slow goons that spent half of their careers in the box. Sure, they could deliver a big hit, but that was just eye candy for the fans. There is a reason why NHL teams no longer want them. Skilled players were skating circles around them, hence far better offensive numbers. They are being replaced by faster, smarter defense-men. Players that get the puck out of the zone without giving it away half the time.

And don't even get me started on goal-tending. Modern goalies are so patient and technically-sound. Goalies of yesteryear would flop around like fish out of water. Gretzky's fake shot was famous for a reason. It would always work. Breakaways were nearly automatic goals.

How about definition of top-6, bottom-6? Those lines are becoming more blurred. Teams are now looking for speed and skill, not for 6'-4" 220 goon that can barely stand up on skates.

Top players are still just as talented as they were then, the difference is that their opposition is faster and smarter.
 
hairylikebear said:
Kharlamov is untouchable as the best Russian player ever because he was clearly the best player on the best national teams they they have ever iced, and his legend is cemented by the horrible tragedy that killed him in his prime.

Malkin has Ovechkin and Datsyuk (kind of) to compete with for best of his era. Those guys are more akin to the Mikhaelov, Maltsev, Petrov tier that were battling for 2nd place behind Kharlamov.

If you're just looking at raw skills, Ovechkin is the most talented Russian player ever. Malkin only really comes in ahead if you place a heavy bias on team NHL achievements and recency. Let's not forget that Malkin has never reached Ovechkin's peak from a few years ago, and I'm not even sure Crosby has either.
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It honestly makes me giggle a bit when people declare Kharlamov the undisuputed greatest russian ever. Also Malkin is arguably more skilled than Ovechkin. He has better hands, better hockey IQ and playmaking abilities, and is better at possession and defensive play. Malkin is the best Russian player ever, and I truly think he makes it a no brainer in the next several seasons.

MaxV said:
I don't agree.

First of all, half of your defensemen are offense-first.

Second, comparing NHL then and now is like apples and oranges, different league. It's deeper now.

All those physical, "stay-at-home" defesemen of yesteryear were just big, slow goons that spent half of their careers in the box. Sure, they could deliver a big hit, but that was just eye candy for the fans. There is a reason why NHL teams no longer want them. Skilled players were skating circles around them, hence far better offensive numbers. They are being replaced by faster, smarter defense-men. Players that get the puck out of the zone without giving it away half the time.

And don't even get me started on goal-tending. Modern goalies are so patient and technically-sound. Goalies of yesteryear would flop around like fish out of water. Gretzky's fake shot was famous for a reason. It would always work. Breakaways were nearly automatic goals.

How about definition of top-6, bottom-6? Those lines are becoming more blurred. Teams are now looking for speed and skill, not for 6'-4" 220 goon that can barely stand up on skates.

Top players are still just as talented as they were then, the difference is that their opposition is faster and smarter.
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Bingo.
 
Laineux said:
Hilarious that you bash Malkin for his defensive play and then claim that Ovechkin is much better :laugh:
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Never said ovi was better defensively. As a winger he is not as defensively responsible as a center. He does actually back check though if you were to watch him play. Not as many wingers do that.
 
authentic said:
It honestly makes me giggle a bit when people declare Kharlamov the undisuputed greatest russian ever. Also Malkin is arguably more skilled than Ovechkin. He has better hands, better hockey IQ and playmaking abilities, and is better at possession and defensive play. Malkin is the best Russian player ever, and I truly think he makes it a no brainer in the next several seasons.



Bingo.
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You're just describing attributes that make an elite center. Yeah I agree that Malkin is a better center than Ovechkin.

Ovy is faster both in top speed and acceleration, stronger, and has an advantage in every shot category except backhand. He just contributes more to goals being scored because he's the one that's directly scoring them.

A winger's responsibility is not to control possession but to convert that possession into a dangerous scoring chance. On defense if they're not part of the offensive play they need to be the one back to pick up the third forward on the counterattack. Ovechkin is almost always part of the offensive play which is why he gets the reputation of being lazy defensively. In reality I don't think the pickpocket takeaways Malkin gets really puts him that far ahead of Ovechkin in defensive ability. They are both average at best at their respective defensive responsibilities.

To each their own though. I don't think it's wrong to say that Malkin is the better player if you place high value on a center's contribution or on possession skills. I'm sticking with Ovechkin because when they're all on the same ice on the international stage, Ovechkin is the one that stands out as the most dangerous, just like Kharlamov back in the day.
 
Yes Malkin with his 3 elite seasons is the best ever.

3-1 hart (2 won basically unanimously against Malkin)

3-1 lindsay (same as hart)

1-2 Ross (09 was OV's but for 2 missed games)

6-0 rocket
1-1 calder
0-1 smythe

14-6. Any non pens homer can see the difference between 14-6. If it was like 14-11 (OV vs Crosby trophies) then sure Malkin's cups would swing it in his favour. But 14-6? Don't be delusional, that's more than double.

8-3 top 10 pts
7-3 top 10 hart voting
7-3 1st AST
10-3 1st+2nd AST

Again, Ovechkin has a decade of awards (more than doubled Malkin) and being elite. Malkin has 3 seasons. A couple big playoff runs sheltered behind Crosby doesn't make up for the difference of a decade vs 3 seasons.

Before someone cries about PPG, both have 8 top 10 PPG finishes. Difference is that Ovechkin's are all over full seasons, while only 3 of Malkin's are over 70 games.

Ovechkin is better.
 
For my money, Malkin is the best Russian NHLer ever, although the title will go to Ovechkin.

In terms of Russian (Soviet) player - no. Tretiak, Fetisov, Kharlamov, Makarov, etc.
 
hairylikebear said:
To each their own though. I don't think it's wrong to say that Malkin is the better player if you place high value on a center's contribution or on possession skills. I'm sticking with Ovechkin because when they're all on the same ice on the international stage, Ovechkin is the one that stands out as the most dangerous, just like Kharlamov back in the day.
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You can't be serious. As a fan of Finland, I'm always glad if Ovechkin is playing on Russia. He hurts their team...
 
if i had to pick between malkin & federov i guess i'd pick federov. now lets hope the wild prospect kirill kaprizov will be the best russian born player of all time!
 
hairylikebear said:
I'm sticking with Ovechkin because when they're all on the same ice on the international stage, Ovechkin is the one that stands out as the most dangerous, just like Kharlamov back in the day.
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Ovechkin in
- World championships: 56 GP, 46 Pts
- Olympics: 17 GP, 11 Pts

Malkin in
- World championships: 40 GP, 49 Pts
- Olympics: 16 GP, 15 Pts

Not sure what are your criteria for being dangerous.
 
KoozNetsOff 92 said:
Yes Malkin with his 3 elite seasons is the best ever.
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I agree, that statement is ridiculous.

KoozNetsOff 92 said:
Again, Ovechkin has a decade of awards (more than doubled Malkin) and being elite. Malkin has 3 seasons. A couple big playoff runs sheltered behind Crosby doesn't make up for the difference of a decade vs 3 seasons.
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Yup, that's exactly how those playoff runs went ;).

Also I like how you argue that Ovechkin has a decade of being better than Malkin in RS. In fact it's other way around. Malkin has a decade of being one of the top 3 players (though injury prone) and Ovechkin has 3 seasons (and I will readily admit he was the best player during that stretch). This is their comparison after those 3 seasons:
- Ovechkin: 506 Pts in 525 GP (RS), 50 Pts in 69 GP (PO)
- Malkin: 451 Pts in 397 GP (RS), 84 Pts in 87 GP (PO)
 
rintinw said:
I agree, that statement is ridiculous.



Yup, that's exactly how those playoff runs went ;).

Also I like how you argue that Ovechkin has a decade of being better than Malkin in RS. In fact it's other way around. Malkin has a decade of being one of the top 3 players (though injury prone) and Ovechkin has 3 seasons (and I will readily admit he was the best player during that stretch). This is their comparison after those 3 seasons:
- Ovechkin: 506 Pts in 525 GP (RS), 50 Pts in 69 GP (PO)
- Malkin: 451 Pts in 397 GP (RS), 84 Pts in 87 GP (PO)
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So Ovechkin, who has been a hart finalist 5x and 8x top 10 in pts and a 7x 1st AST, only has 3 elite seasons? But Malkin, who has 3 hart nominations and 3x top 10 in pts has been elite for a decade? Makes sense.
 
Aside from Malkin rookie season. Malkin only had 3 healthy seasons. Each of those came up with 100 points. 106 113 and 109 points. Out of those healthy seasons he has 2 Ross Lindsey Smythe Hart. 3 first team all stars.

Malkin is the best Russian players of all time. If he was healthy there wouldn't be much of an argument.
 
It's impossible to say, EVER, with Malkin or any Russian for that fact. To much is clouded by the existence of the USSR and their Iron Curtain towards the world. Yes we got to see that USSR team versus North American talent, but we have no idea what type of prohockey careers they could have had.

If you want to say he is the most accomplished Russian player since 90-91 post the time in which it took the USSR to dissolve. Then yes, I'll buy off on that. 100%. But unfortunately due to so many players living under the thumb and rules of the USSR that were exceptional players it will always cloud the best Russian EVER debate.

And I say this as a massive Malkin fan.
 
KoozNetsOff 92 said:
So Ovechkin, who has been a hart finalist 5x and 8x top 10 in pts and a 7x 1st AST, only has 3 elite seasons? But Malkin, who has 3 hart nominations and 3x top 10 in pts has been elite for a decade? Makes sense.
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Tell me a season when Malkin was not elite plz, he is always good, just not getting enough games to end up in any trophy consideration. Malkin biggest weakness is his health, if it wasn't for that it would no longer be a discussion between him and Ovechkin tbh, Ovie has that elite peak for 5 years but outside of that Malkin is clearly a better player.
 
ChiefWiggum said:
If we put him above Bure as the greatest Russian NHLer of all time, we are doing so based on accomplishments. Bure had more speed and probably just as much skill

But I would take Makarov and Kharlamov (and maybe even Krutov or Bure) over Malkin.
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Taking Bure over Malkin is foolish
 
As far as Russians in the NHL, I think an argument could be made for any one of Fedorov, Ovechkin, or Malkin. Personally, I'd take prime Fedorov over the other two, but doubt both won't surpass him when all is said and done.
 
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