Malkin is the best Russian player ever

[KoozNetsOff 92]

To have any nhl awards and ast. Most cases you need to be healthy and play at least almost the full season

Malkin has only 3 healthy season not counting his rookie season. 2008 2009 2012. Each season he got an nhl award or an ast

In those 3 seasons 5 nhl awards and 3 first team ast. All 3 of the season 100 plus points.

You are right cup don't make the argument but you are ignoring his performance in those playoffs. It's not debatable that Malkin better playoff performer than Ovechkin. Also Malkin plays center. More competition for the ast.

You are right about ppg it shouldn't me Malkin favor but playoff ppg in a lot higher than Ovechkin. We can use that. For me Malkin is better but its really close.

So we should penalize OV for actually being healthy and performing well enough to win awards? And pump Malkin for missing games every season? Literally makes zero sense and hockey is the only sport where fans entertain this ridiculous idea. OV has a decade of excellence but it shouldn't count because Malkin couldn't stay healthy so it's not a fair comparison? That's a joke.

Yes 3 healthy seasons. And in 2 of those OV ran away with the hart/lindsay and beat Malkin in PPG (which seems to be his biggest argument for some reason).

Malkin is a better playoff performer, I agree. But let's not pretend that being the secondary focus of teams is the same as having the target on your back like OV does. Your more AST competition argument holds zero weight because Malkin never plays enough games anyway.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

In JRs book he said today we talk about Malkin and Ovy ,went on to say they couldn't skate with Mogilney Bure and Fedorov.I would trust the word of a player that played with both over yours.

but then people disagree with gretzky when he has a different opinion than their own

fedorov over malkin and ovi, i don't agree but it isn't completely crazy

bure over malkin and ovi, please

mogilny over malkin and ovi, good god you would be the worst GM ever

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Alright, I'll bite.

Bure played on a lot of garbage teams as well as into the dead puck era. Doesn't help that his knees blew out early. You'll probably raise the injury prone is no excuse argument, which is funny in a Malkin thread.

His regular season career was >1.1 points per game, 1.09 in the playoffs. Was huge in the 1994 playoff run. If you watched him play, you'd recall that he was an exciting player that always caused breakaways due to his crazy speed.

It's pretty easy to understand why him and Fedorov (and even Datsyuk) are in the discussion, if you view defensive play more. They were both very versatile, skilled, and had plenty of hardware.

I lived in Vancouver during Bure's best years, I saw every game of his. He doesn't belong in this discussion. That's not a slight on him, he was great. OV and Malkin are just better. As for Fedorov and Datsyuk.. A combined 1x 1st AST doesn't do it for me.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

WRONG! Fedorov was miles better than Malkin, in both skill and compete level. Fedorov didn't always bring it either, but at playoff time, he always brought his best game.

how many conn smythe trophies when he "brought it"?

 

[StargateSG1]

Malkin? Really?
Have you ever seen Fedorov play?
Have you ever seen Bure play?

 

[Sam Spade]

Those Cups really skew peoples opinions. Well that and the ever popular PPG.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Those Cups really skew peoples opinions. Well that and the ever popular PPG.

Yeah, even though OV led the NHL in PPG 3x to Malkin's 1x and his 8X top 10 PPG finishes are all over full seasons compared to Malkin's only 3/8 top 10 PPG finishes being over 70+ games. People are actually using Malkin's injuries and OV's health as an excuse. Like yeah, let's penalize a guy for actually staying healthy and performing every season and winning awards. Lol.

 

[Son Goku]

Malkin? Really?
Have you ever seen Fedorov play?
Have you ever seen Bure play?

Why is always the stupid argument. Yes the majority of us have been hockey fans for more than 2 years so we know how players played.

 

[Fantomas]

Sergei Fedorov:
Regular season - 1248gp, 483g, 696a, 1179pts
Playoffs: 183gp, 52g, 124a, 176pts
3x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Hart Trophy Winner
2x Frank J. Selke Trophy Winner

Evgeni Malkin:
Regular season - 706gp, 328g, 504a, 839pts
Playoffs: 149gp, 58g, 99a, 157pts
3x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Hart Trophy Winner
1x Conn Smythe Winner
2x Art Ross Trophy Winner
1x Calder Trophy Winner
1x Ted Lindsay Winner

I said I wasn't convinced Malkin was better, and I'm still not. He certainly can convince me by the time his career is over.

Good day, Pierre.

You have to adjust for league-wide scoring. Once you do, it becomes clear that Malkin is a much more offensively productive player than Fedorov.

Malkin is also a much better player than Larionov to address something a couple of other people said. The comparison to Gretzky by the Western media was mostly hype, and partly based on some stylistic similarities.

Larionov was a wonderful complementary player and an interesting personality. But not truly a star.

 

[Fantomas]

Lol Malkin doesn't bring it in the playoffs?

Career Playoffs
Malkin PPG 1.05 + Conn Smythe
Federov PPG .96

Dont let facts get in the way.

And Fedorov put up those points in a higher scoring environment.

To be fair to Fedorov, I would take his peak over Malkin's. He was much more versatile and was terrific in his Hart Trophy season (especially the first half). Very good defensively.

But he could not maintain that level. And I think his playoff performances were more consistently good as opposed to great.

 

[Canucks1096]

So we should penalize OV for actually being healthy and performing well enough to win awards? And pump Malkin for missing games every season? Literally makes zero sense and hockey is the only sport where fans entertain this ridiculous idea. OV has a decade of excellence but it shouldn't count because Malkin couldn't stay healthy so it's not a fair comparison? That's a joke.


Yes 3 healthy seasons. And in 2 of those OV ran away with the hart/lindsay and beat Malkin in PPG (which seems to be his biggest argument for some reason).

Malkin is a better playoff performer, I agree. But let's not pretend that being the secondary focus of teams is the same as having the target on your back like OV does. Your more AST competition argument holds zero weight because Malkin never plays enough games anyway.

I am not penalizing Ovechkin for being healthy. All I am saying if Malkin was healthy he has the ability to be around the same level as Ovechkin which is true. I mean the argument is who is better player and not who accomplished more in hockey.

Ovechkin has more ast. So let me ask you this so if any center that doesn't get an ast that season so automatically Ovechkin is better than them that season? That is the argument you are using

So you think Ovechkin better that Malkin because of awards and ast. But Ovechkin has more than Crosby as well. So is Ovechkin better than Crosby? I am pretty sure your answer is No. If your Is answer is No. Your whole argument about awards and ast team argument is pointless.

Yes Malkin lost the hart in 2008 and 2009 but there season was about the same. Can you honestly tell me that Ovechkin had a way better season than Malkin and they weren't around the same level those 2 years? I did tell you before that with Crosby on the team as well. A lot of votes will not go to Malkin. In 2012 Crosby had to play 22 games in order for Malkin to get hart votes.

Before you were telling me I was looking at raw total about points. It seem like you are looking raw totals for awards to determine who is better. You are not looking at it with much context.


It is proven Malkin plays some of his best hockey without Crosby. 2008 Crosby missed 29 games. Malkim had 52 points in those games. You even said 2012 was Malkin best season and that season Crosby played 22. This year playoffs when Crosby missed the game and a few periods Malkin has 3 or 4 points. So your argument about Malkin about secondary doesn't make sense because he plays just as well or better with better competition.

Also lets not ignore Ovechkin plays with a top 10 center for most of his career. Malkin most of his career Malkin plays with second or third line players.

Healthy Malkin he can go to head to head with Ovechkin in the regular season which is proven. Playoffs Ovechkin can't go head to head with Malkin. Thst is the main reason why I think Malkin is better than Ovechkin

When I am comparing players. I look at there actual performance first. Then awards and then cup and then cup usually. I think you are too focus on awards and that's why you think Crosby 2014 season was better than Malkin 2009 season

 

[Canucks1096]

I lived in Vancouver during Bure's best years, I saw every game of his. He doesn't belong in this discussion. That's not a slight on him, he was great. OV and Malkin are just better. As for Fedorov and Datsyuk.. A combined 1x 1st AST doesn't do it for me.

Agree Mallkin and Ovechkin are better than Bure. This is coming from a hugh Bure fan as well. There is a reason why I have 1096 in my user name. Two of Bure's numbers

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I am not penalizing Ovechkin for being healthy. All I am saying if Malkin was healthy he has the ability to be around the same level as Ovechkin which is true. I mean the argument is who is better player and not who accomplished more in hockey.

Ovechkin has more ast. So let me ask you this so if any center that doesn't get an ast that season so automatically Ovechkin is better than them that season? That is the argument you are using

So you think Ovechkin better that Malkin because of awards and ast. But Ovechkin has more than Crosby as well. So is Ovechkin better than Crosby? I am pretty sure your answer is No. If your Is answer is No. Your whole argument about awards and ast team argument is pointless.

Yes Malkin lost the hart in 2008 and 2009 but there season was about the same. Can you honestly tell me that Ovechkin had a way better season than Malkin and they weren't around the same level those 2 years? I did tell you before that with Crosby on the team as well. A lot of votes will not go to Malkin. In 2012 Crosby had to play 22 games in order for Malkin to get hart votes.

Before you were telling me I was looking at raw total about points. It seem like you are looking raw totals for awards to determine who is better. You are not looking at it with much context.


It is proven Malkin plays some of his best hockey without Crosby. 2008 Crosby missed 29 games. Malkim had 52 points in those games. You even said 2012 was Malkin best season and that season Crosby played 22. This year playoffs when Crosby missed the game and a few periods Malkin has 3 or 4 points. So your argument about Malkin about secondary doesn't make sense because he plays just as well or better with better competition.

Also lets not ignore Ovechkin plays with a top 10 center for most of his career. Malkin most of his career Malkin plays with second or third line players.

Healthy Malkin he can go to head to head with Ovechkin which is proven. Playoffs Ovechkin can't go head to head with Malkin. Thst is the main reason why I think Malkin is better than Ovechkin

When I am comparing players. I look at there actual performance first. Then awards and then cup and then cup usually. I think you are too focus on awards and that's why you think Crosby 2014 season was better than Malkin 2009 season

If Malkin was healthy. He wasn't though so too bad. 2/3 seasons Malkin was healthy OV was better. So there's your answer who the better player is.

Ovechkin vs Crosby is totally different than Ovechkin vs Malkin. 14-11 and 11-7 vs 14-6 and 11-3. When one guy has MORE THAN DOUBLE the awards it's not "pointless". But it is in this situation because Malkin has no argument.

Check the Hart voting to see if the season was about the same. Ovechkin was better, that was my point and every stat proves it. I don't care if it was close or not, OV was better.

My argument makes perfect sense. Playing every season every game as the main guy is different than playing 50 games like Malkin did in 11/12.

Check Ovechkin's stats before Backstrom showed up. Malkin plays with 2nd liners but he gets cupcake matchups. More than balances out.

Healthy Malkin was worse than Ovechkin but ok. Playoffs OV can't go head to head with Malkin yet OV was the best player in the caps-pens series in 09 and was better than Malkin in 16 (again with Crosby getting the tougher matchups). So I don't get this point.

If you look at actual performance then you should value OV's decade of dominance over 3 seasons from Malkin. And you should look at OV being better than Malkin in 2/3 of Malkin's healthy seasons.

Crosby's 14 season was better than Malkin 09, I'm sure the vast majority would agree if you made a poll.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Limiting this to just Russian/Soviet players who spent the prime years of their career in the NHL Malkin is obviously in the discussion along with Ovechkin, Fedorov and Artyukhin... OK, probably not Artyukhin.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Malkin? Really?
Have you ever seen Fedorov play?
Have you ever seen Bure play?

yep

both inferior to malkin

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Those Cups really skew peoples opinions. Well that and the ever popular PPG.

along with hart trophies and art ross trophies

the only argument for fedorov and bure is "DAMMIT I GREW UP IDOLIZING THOSE GUYS HOW DARE YOU THINK MY CHILDHOOD HERO ISN'T AS GOOD AS I THINK HE IS"

 

[bleedgreen]

Well I watched Fedorov in his prime and I've watched Malkin in his. I think the young assume the old want their heroes to be that forever, but that's not really true. I keep watching hockey because I want to see younger players reach new heights. I don't care at all if they pass other generations. I'm not a Detroit or Pittsburgh fan. I've watched all of Malkin's career and despite him being very fun to watch and having reached heights that make these conversations happen if I had to choose one of them for one game it would Fedorov. It's not revisionist history. I'm not blinded by nostalgia. In fact that argument gets old, listening to posters dismiss anything anyone older ever says about the topic. The games aren't that hard to find. Fedorov was a better skater, better puck handler, better passer and I find them both to be comparable goal scorers. I think Malkin gets the edge with dangles, Fedorov just didn't try that as much.

He was also clutch in the playoffs, there's no way Malkin gets a nod there. He played some of his best hockey against the Av's when that rivalry was at its height.

One game? It's an easy choice of Fedorov.

Burke vs Ovechkin is an interesting debate too. They're too different for me to have a hard stance. I'm just lucky to have seen them both play a lot.

 

[KJoe88]

along with hart trophies and art ross trophies

the only argument for fedorov and bure is "DAMMIT I GREW UP IDOLIZING THOSE GUYS HOW DARE YOU THINK MY CHILDHOOD HERO ISN'T AS GOOD AS I THINK HE IS"

The more you post the more foolish you look.

 

[Regal]

So we should penalize OV for actually being healthy and performing well enough to win awards? And pump Malkin for missing games every season? Literally makes zero sense and hockey is the only sport where fans entertain this ridiculous idea. OV has a decade of excellence but it shouldn't count because Malkin couldn't stay healthy so it's not a fair comparison? That's a joke.

Yes 3 healthy seasons. And in 2 of those OV ran away with the hart/lindsay and beat Malkin in PPG (which seems to be his biggest argument for some reason).

Malkin is a better playoff performer, I agree. But let's not pretend that being the secondary focus of teams is the same as having the target on your back like OV does. Your more AST competition argument holds zero weight because Malkin never plays enough games anyway.

I always see the durability pushers say this but there's no truth to it. Averaging stats are a much bigger part of other sports

 

[Oddbob]

how many conn smythe trophies when he "brought it"?

You don't have to win the Conn Smythe, to be a great playoff performer. Maybe don't listen to Pierre McGuire so much!

 

[Oddbob]

along with hart trophies and art ross trophies

the only argument for fedorov and bure is "DAMMIT I GREW UP IDOLIZING THOSE GUYS HOW DARE YOU THINK MY CHILDHOOD HERO ISN'T AS GOOD AS I THINK HE IS"

What is better about Malkin? Winning a Conn Smythe doesn't prove anything, anymore than someone winning the Hart. Conn Smythe is like all the other vote able trophies, it comes down to favourites in the media, more than who should actually win, many times. Like 15-16, Crosby (Media Darling) was less impressive than Kessel, who had a career breakout playoff performance.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I always see the durability pushers say this but there's no truth to it. Averaging stats are a much bigger part of other sports

They might be, but you don't see anyone in the NBA say player X who has a 30ppg but played 60 games had a better season than player Y who has a 25ppg but played 80 games. If Griffin retired today he'd have a better PPG than Tmac, Ewing, Robinson.. Does that make him better? Anyone with half a brain knows he's nowhere close to them. But in hockey you always see the "wow look at Crosby's PPG 5th all time, so he's automatically top 5 offensively".

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I lived in Vancouver during Bure's best years, I saw every game of his. He doesn't belong in this discussion. That's not a slight on him, he was great. OV and Malkin are just better. As for Fedorov and Datsyuk.. A combined 1x 1st AST doesn't do it for me.

If Bure played with players of the same calibre as Crosby, Hossa (powerplay), Neal, Kessel, Hornqvist, Letang, Gonchar, etc., his point totals might be better than playing with AHL scrubs. And he still hit 60 goals...

 

[Canucks1096]

If Malkin was healthy. He wasn't though so too bad. 2/3 seasons Malkin was healthy OV was better. So there's your answer who the better player is.

Ovechkin vs Crosby is totally different than Ovechkin vs Malkin. 14-11 and 11-7 vs 14-6 and 11-3. When one guy has MORE THAN DOUBLE the awards it's not "pointless". But it is in this situation because Malkin has no argument.

Check the Hart voting to see if the season was about the same. Ovechkin was better, that was my point and every stat proves it. I don't care if it was close or not, OV was better.

My argument makes perfect sense. Playing every season every game as the main guy is different than playing 50 games like Malkin did in 11/12.

Check Ovechkin's stats before Backstrom showed up. Malkin plays with 2nd liners but he gets cupcake matchups. More than balances out.

Healthy Malkin was worse than Ovechkin but ok. Playoffs OV can't go head to head with Malkin yet OV was the best player in the caps-pens series in 09 and was better than Malkin in 16 (again with Crosby getting the tougher matchups). So I don't get this point.

If you look at actual performance then you should value OV's decade of dominance over 3 seasons from Malkin. And you should look at OV being better than Malkin in 2/3 of Malkin's healthy seasons.

Crosby's 14 season was better than Malkin 09, I'm sure the vast majority would agree if you made a poll.

The stats shows when Backstrom arrived Ovechkin increase his even strength points quite a bit.

No Backstrom. Ovechkin even strength points

2006 54
2007 47


With Backstrom
2008 74
2009 64
2010 73

So 10 to 20 more even strength points with Backstrom. Not a coincidence that Ovechkin even strength production improve so much with Backstrom. 2006 and 2007 had bunch of pps so the stats were really misleading. Without all tbose pp im those 2 years Ovechkin points would of been a lot lower. Once again you just looking raw number and not looking at It with much context. I proved to you that Ovechkin production increase a lot with Backstrom.

This year Crosby had second all star team Richard and Smythe. Ovechkin had nothing. So pretend we are still in 2016 that means Ovechkin had 25 awards/ast vs Crosby 15 awards/ast. 10 more is pretty significant as well don't you think so in 2016 was Ovechkin better than Crosby? Do you see now the awards and ast is not the correct way to measure who is better and is misleading?

In 2008 and 2009 what do you mean every stat proves Ovechkin is better. 2009 Malkin had more points than Ovechkin. Those 2 season combined Ovechkin had 3 more points. A 3 point difference and his season was a lot of better because of the hart voting? Doesn't make sense. Like what I said you are too focus on the awards and not the actual production. Also you are ignoring my point about pits has Crosby as well. That's hugh factor in hart voting going to Ovechkin. So pretend I will give you the 2009 year and pretend that your right. But 2012 Malkin had 54 more points than Ovechkin. Sure Ovechkin was little bit better in 2008 and 2009 but 2012 was lot better. Does that make it equal? If you put all those seasons together? Add all those 3 season Malkin has way more points.

Okay sure Ovechkin was the main guy all the time and Malkim was for about 80 game. But Ovechkin has Backstrom so that 2 points cancel each other ouy

It's not really decade of domainance by Ovechkin. More like 4 or 5 seasons. But we need look at unhealthy Malkim was better than healthy Ovechkin in 2014 2016 and 2017 as well.

Sorry I wasn't clear on the head to head. I meant to say if you look at all og Ovechkin playoffs and all of Malkin playoffs. There is no argument Malkin playoff is better.

Bit there hugh argument on Malkin is around the same as Ovechkin in the regular season. Even some of unhealthy season are better than ovechkin healthy season.

 

[Canucks1096]

If Malkin was healthy. He wasn't though so too bad. 2/3 seasons Malkin was healthy OV was better. So there's your answer who the better player is.

Ovechkin vs Crosby is totally different than Ovechkin vs Malkin. 14-11 and 11-7 vs 14-6 and 11-3. When one guy has MORE THAN DOUBLE the awards it's not "pointless". But it is in this situation because Malkin has no argument.

Check the Hart voting to see if the season was about the same. Ovechkin was better, that was my point and every stat proves it. I don't care if it was close or not, OV was better.

My argument makes perfect sense. Playing every season every game as the main guy is different than playing 50 games like Malkin did in 11/12.

Check Ovechkin's stats before Backstrom showed up. Malkin plays with 2nd liners but he gets cupcake matchups. More than balances out.

Healthy Malkin was worse than Ovechkin but ok. Playoffs OV can't go head to head with Malkin yet OV was the best player in the caps-pens series in 09 and was better than Malkin in 16 (again with Crosby getting the tougher matchups). So I don't get this point.

If you look at actual performance then you should value OV's decade of dominance over 3 seasons from Malkin. And you should look at OV being better than Malkin in 2/3 of Malkin's healthy seasons.

Crosby's 14 season was better than Malkin 09, I'm sure the vast majority would agree if you made a poll.

Let's compare season by season. Playoff you admit to me that Malkin is better so we don't talk need to talk about that. 2011 we wont count because Malkin only played 40 games and



2007 Ovechkin
2008 Ovechkin
2009 tie
2010 Ovechkin
2012 Malkin
2013 Ovechkin
2014 Malkin
2015 Ovechkin
2016 Malkin
2017 Malkin

2012 Malkin was better. I don't need to explain 2017 more points in less games. 2016 1 less points in 12 less games. 2014 Malkin 7 less points only in 20 less games but Ovechkin was -35. 2009 its too close he did win the ross but Ovechkin played 3 less games.

So 5 Ovechkin 4 Malkin 1 tie. So regular season is about the same if yoj compare them each season argument. Playoffs Malkin is a lot better. I think it's fair I give a slight edge to Malkin