Malkin was leading scorer for a few days only before he went down with an injury
Malkin is the best Russian player ever
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Malkin was leading scorer for a few days only before he went down with an injury
Laineux
Registered User
- Aug 1, 2011
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McDavid was the leader or co-leader consecutively since November. I do remember that Malkin was right there though, but I don't think he ever actually was in lead?
KJoe88
Forever Lost.
many have, yet you call me "foolish"
it is not crazy or foolish to think Feds is better, but it is wrong
Those many are probably the ones who have rarely seen Fedorov play. I saw him play in his prime as a Wings fan.
I've also seen Malkin play. Obviously no where near as much as you Pens fans, but enough to make a tangible decision that Feds is a better player. He was a monster pure and simple.
Your posts ARE foolish and condescending. I never said Malkin sucks or anything resonating that. Your arguments are irrelevant due to the childish and one lane perspective you have.
It's not really debating with you.
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If you check scoring log for both players on hockey reference. They list all the points they got that season. As of Dec 31 they both had 43 points. But Malkin had more goals so since he had more goal he was leading scorer. But like I said it only lasted a few days
barkovcanfinnish
Stanley Cup Champs 2024
No, I'm saying people thought Jonathan Toews was the best player in the world after the Blackhawks won in 2015.
I'd like to avoid falling under a similar category until further notice.
He had one amazing OG/WJC tournament in his career. I would take many, many games/years of consistency over short tournaments. Martin Gerber was also godly in the Olympics once upon a time.
1x First Team All-Star
2x Rocket Richard Trophy
Both in the same season. And in that season, he wasn't even the best Russian player.
for apparently the best goal scorer and Russian ever? It's a joke. You'd think he'd have a bunch of hardware to back up the hype the fanboys give to him.
DudeWhereIsMakar
Bergevin sent me an offer sheet
Probably in the NHL when it comes to resumes, yes.
I would say Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Fedorov, Bure are also worth consideration.
I also think a poll should be started for best player from each country by position.
I would say Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Fedorov, Bure are also worth consideration.
I also think a poll should be started for best player from each country by position.
The answer is yes. Malkin still has to play well for a few more years but he is the best Russian to have played in the NHL. Only Russian to have won 2 scoring titles and has a better points per game average than any Russian in the history of the game. The only current player in the NHL that is averaging a higher career points per game is Crosby at 1.313 points per game which is 6th all time. Malkin is 14th all time with 1.178.
Let's take a look at some of Malkin's competition.
I saw someone make a case for Molginy who I did enjoy watching. The thing is Molginy was not even one of the top 10 players of his generation. Molginy never finished any season in the top 5 in scoring.
Fedorov has had many votes here and he was a great player but he also only finished in the top 5 in scoring one year of his career and only one other time even in the top 10 when he tied Molginy for 9th/10th. Fedorov and Molginy played in a much more high scoring era with Fedorov's first 6 years in the NHL when he was 21-26 was before the dead puck era. Malkin played his whole career in the dead puck era and still has a much higher points per game and actually was the league leader in scoring twice.
Ovi is also debated on here and I think Malkin is clearly the better player and I felt that even before Ovi's decline started. Ovi reminds me of Brett Hall who was a great goal scorer but lacked in other areas. Ovi's cherry picking style of play only playing half the ice hurts his value. One of the better goal scorers for sure but he did not make players around him better like Malkin. For example when the Pens won the Cup in 2009 Malkin played on a line with Fedotenko and Talbot and he still put up 36 points in 24 games. Ovi needs to play with other good players and he never carried a line. I have no doubt the Pens don't have the Cups if we had Ovi over Malkin. Malkin is the much better overall player and always has been. Malkin has the better points per game for his career and has the much better overall game. I also think his game will age better over the next 5+ years going forward compared to Ovi.
Alexander the Gr8
Registered User
None of the bolded is true. Ovechkin was putting up points and goals long before he played with Backstrom. Nobody here knows what would happen if we switched Ovechkin and Malkin regarding Stanley Cups. You're full of certainties but you don't justify anything you say.
I justified my points plenty. I gave examples of how Malkin plays a more complete game which is a fact that can't be disputed. I showed how Malkin playing with checking line players had 36 points in 2009 playoffs showing he makes people around him better. Ovi only plays half the ice and is a cherry picker and always has been. I pointed out the Malkin has the highest points per game of any Russian in history of the NHL and is currently 14th all time and the only active player higher is Crosby who is 6th. I pointed out that Malkin has the most scoring titles of any Russian in history.
You are right that nobody knows for sure what would of happened if Malkin and Ovi had been switched about the Cups but we do know surrounded by just as much talent Ovi could never get passed the 2nd round in Washington. Malkin has had the better career when you take in all factors. Just winning Cups does not make you a better player by itself but when you add the 3 Cups plus two scoring titles and the best points per game of any Russian in history that becomes a good case. As I said in my last post I also don't see Ovi's game aging well and Malkin's game will translate well into the future. I believe in another 5 years this won't even be a debate.
Alexander the Gr8
Registered User
More complete game can in fact be disputed. Malkin's a bit better defensively, but Ovechkin compensates with physicality. One thing we tend to forget is that Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby weren't any good defensively at their peak. They developed these characteristics later on in their careers.
Malkin gets second line matchups, and Ovechkin was ahead of him in playoff point production by the time the Capitals were eliminated in the second round in 2009. Ovechkin had 21 points in 14 games, and a staggering 14 points in 7 games vs the Penguins. That was Ovechkin playing with Viktor Kozlov and an aging Sergei Fedorov.
Ovechkin does not play only half the ice, nor does he cherry pick. Slamming one timers on the PP isn't cherry picking, it's what you're supposed to do. Malkin does the same thing from the outside of the right circle. Speaking of cherry picking...
Malkin's PPG is slightly higher, but there is a tremendous gap between the two in GPG. There is a bias against goalscorers on this website. Apparently you cannot make your teammates better if you're a goalscoring winger, only if you're a playmaking centre.
Furthermore, PPG is not a definitive stat. Both Ovechkin and Malkin will retire with a PPG lower than their current one. In fact, both players have seen their PPG drop substantially since 2012.
Finally, I don't see Malkin outliving Ovechkin. One player gets injured all the time while the other has missed less than 20 games in his career due to injuries. Sadly, Malkin's injuries will catch up to him. How well do you think a 35 year old Malkin will recover from injuries?
A case can be made for Malkin over Ovechkin, and a case can be made for Ovechkin over Malkin. They're that close.
GordieHowsUrBreath
Nostalgia... STOP DWELLING ON THE PAST
- Jun 16, 2016
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oh so feds is better because "he was a monster"
you totally convinced me now
all the evidence says malkin is better, you just have your biased opinion and insulting me makes you look petty
oh so feds is better because "he was a monster"
you totally convinced me now
all the evidence says malkin is better, you just have your biased opinion and insulting me makes you look petty
You have a fine argument here, but about waht? Fedorov was better than Malkin, slightly(your silly evidence based on stats and hypes doesn't change hat I saw with my own eyes), BUT they are both not in the discussion aout the best russian player ever.
Lets break it all down and analyze this from every angle
Like what you said Malkin better defensively. Ovechkin physical game. So that cancel each other out
Ovechkin plays against better competition. True however Malkin has proven that his ppg increase when Crosby is out the lineup. It is small sample size but Ovechkin plays with a top 10 center in Backstrom. Malkin most of his career doesn't play with top 10 winger. You will reply and say look at his first few seasons. His first few season 2005 and 2006 vs Backstrom first 3 season from 2008 to 2010 Ovechkin has 10 to 20 more even strength points. So Backstorm makes a hugh difference on Ovechkin production. So both of these arguments cancel each other
Playoffs
I dont think it's debatable that Malkin is a better playoff performer. Higher playoff ppg and led playoff in scoring twice. Malkin 36 points playing with Talbolt and Fentenko.
Regular season
Ovechkin 3 best years 112 points 110 points 109 points in 2008 to 2010 vs Malkin 3 best years 106 points 113 points 109 points. It is on par with Ovechkin. Maybe a slight edge to Ovechkin but Malkin never had horrible healthy year before like Ovechkin did when he had 65 points in 2012. Also this year Malkin outscored Ovechkin and missed 20 games. 2014 Malkin missed 22 games and Ovechkin only outscored him by 7 points. Malkin has the better ppg career as well. Sure Ovechkin gpg is higher but Malkin apg is higher. The gap between Ovechkin and Malkin goal scoring vs the gap between Malkin play making and Ovechkin playmaking there not too much of a difference
About the aging part. Ovechkin is showing sign of dealing already. He had his 2nd and 3rd worst point total the last 2 years. His goals way down this year and he gets half of the amount the assist the last 4 years compare to before.
With all the facts I came up With the regular season Malkin vs Ovechkin there not to much of a difference. Can you really say Ovechkin is better than Malkin if he has higher ppg? I dont think so. We will say Regular season is a tie
The difference is the playoffs. Thats why I think Malkin is better than Ovechkin.
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You are right that for first two seasons Ovechkin was playing with just Kozlov and Fedorov. But after that he had always top line talent around him (meaning on his line). Up until recently (Kessel) that wasn't the case for Malkin (surprisingly Malkin didn't play with Neal as much as you would expect, blame injuries: they had a nice routine to get injured once the other one got healthy). In fact I would say that Malkins increase in PPG once he was the top line center (aka Crosby injured) could be almost exclusively attributed to better linemates and more icetime.
Did you mean you cherry picked a situation to conceal a context (you know right before that Malkin was hammered by huge hit that left him disoriented for a while, right)?
There is a difference when your PPG drops from 1.234 to 1.093 (Malkin) and when your PPG drops from 1.228 to 0.967 (Ovechkin). Truth is that Ovechkin career is tale two Ovechkins: Ovechkin before summer 2010 and Ovechkin after. I will give you that before 2010 AO was dominant, probably most dominant player during that period Crosby included. He was definitely NOT one dimensional then. But it seems something happened after that (and I would really like to know what it was). AO after 2010 is 'just' an elite forward. Still being best goalscorer but quite one dimensional. With Malkin there was not such a drop off (his drop off in PPG is similar to Crosby or other elite players), only his injuries. You could pretty much track his good and bad seasons to him being healthy or playing through injuries.
Agreed, those injuries are a concern for Malkin going forward.
I do not feel they are that close but I understand it's a matter of how you value different types of accomplishments.
You are right that for first two seasons Ovechkin was playing with just Kozlov and Fedorov. But after that he had always top line talent around him (meaning on his line). Up until recently (Kessel) that wasn't the case for Malkin (surprisingly Malkin didn't play with Neal as much as you would expect, blame injuries: they had a nice routine to get injured once the other one got healthy). In fact I would say that Malkins increase in PPG once he was the top line center (aka Crosby injured) could be almost exclusively attributed to better linemates and more icetime.
Did you mean you cherry picked a situation to conceal a context (you know right before that Malkin was hammered by huge hit that left him disoriented for a while, right)?
There is a difference when your PPG drops from 1.234 to 1.093 (Malkin) and when your PPG drops from 1.228 to 0.967 (Ovechkin). Truth is that Ovechkin career is tale two Ovechkins: Ovechkin before summer 2010 and Ovechkin after. I will give you that before 2010 AO was dominant, probably most dominant player during that period Crosby included. He was definitely NOT one dimensional then. But it seems something happened after that (and I would really like to know what it was). AO after 2010 is 'just' an elite forward. Still being best goalscorer but quite one dimensional. With Malkin there was not such a drop off (his drop off in PPG is similar to Crosby or other elite players), only his injuries. You could pretty much track his good and bad seasons to him being healthy or playing through injuries.
Agreed, those injuries are a concern for Malkin going forward.
I do not feel they are that close but I understand it's a matter of how you value different types of accomplishments.
You are 100% correct. Up until summer of 2010 AO was the best player in the world.
3 things happened that year and as somebody who watched his entire career i can tell you 100000% he was never the same as player after 2010. A shadow of his former self, even during the latter 50 goal season he was half the player he used to be. So the 3 things that happened are:
2010 Olympics. That loss to Canada crushed his spirit.
Suspension for hit on Bryan Campbell. It was a questionable suspension because majority of the injury was caused by Cambell skate getting stuck in crack of the ice right before impact. Prior to this hit there was already voices all over saying Ovi plays reckless etc.... So when he got suspended the league told him that if he keeps playing the way he does he will always get suspended. That neutered him. His style was always balls to the wall and now he had to tone it down. He also got energy from big hit and so did the rest of the team and now he had to think twice before making contact.
Loss to Montreal in the first round. This was like being kicked in the face when your already down. This is when the choker label started being brought up. This is when the voices started saying he plays wrong, he will never win, Caps will never win with their style etc... This is when they decided to change the system completely and this is when the dark ages started after BB was let go.
On a side note i would like to add that the run and gun system was more than working for them and had the GM put together at least a half way decent team i think they would have won a cup by now. They panicked after the MTL series and things progressed from bad to worse. They should have stuck to their high flying offense, solidified defense where Mike Green was not your #1 dman and they would have had a chance.
- Aug 12, 2008
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cant argue much against this as Malkin has been a beast in the playoffs. The only thing that can be said is Ovi never had the best player in the world on the other line picking it up for him when he has an off night. Fair or not that is a huge advantage to Malkin. As pointed out in other threads with pens fans arguing against neutral fans saying Malkin deserved the Smythe 1 of the last 2 years, it was brought up often that Malkin scores in bunches and has games where he disappears. When Ovi does that he doesnt have Crosby there to make up for it. Just the way it goes. If Ovi had a crosby type player in 09 it probably goes much differently.
kmart
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2008
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malkin will never be the best russian or player overall just as crosby will never be the best canadian... they are both hofmers on one team, padding each other careers, yes they are great, but if u want to be the best go and carry a team by urself just as other stars do... pull a kyrie irving or something... if u want to play second fiddle then u will be rated just as one.
PhilJets
Winnipeg is Good
B. LITTLE is an elite 2c
Good 1c
Then you have Mark Scheifele, top5 C last 2 years.
Don't know where to rank them but they should be between 3 - 8
Good 1c
Then you have Mark Scheifele, top5 C last 2 years.
Don't know where to rank them but they should be between 3 - 8
Which hockey player carried a team all by himself and won a cup? Never happened. Maybe with the exception of a goalie getting incredible hot. Not even gretzky or lemieux could do it.
Alexander the Gr8
Registered User
I'd just like to correct a few things. In Ovechkin's 65 goal season, he wasn't playing with Backstrom at ES. He finished first with 112 points, 43 points ahead of second place Backstrom. Ovechkin was a one man show until 2010, he mostly played with Viktor Kozlov, Michael Nylander and Sergei Fedorov. Even then, Backstrom back then wasn't as good as he is now. His 100 point season is mostly a product of Ovechkin, Semin and Green scoring a combined 110 goals.
Malkin's been better in the playoffs, that's for sure.
Then, another argument is Ovechkin's goalscoring. Like it or not, goals are more important than assists, and Ovechkin is by far the best of his generation at that. He's top 5 goalscorer of all time, among the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy and Brett Hull. Malkin isn't the best at anything, he's not even the best player on his own team.
Again, there is an argument for Malkin being better than Ovechkin but there is also an argument for Ovechkin being better than Malkin. Your argument is fair, I respect that.
One final note on Ovechkin, him having a bad season last year doesn't imply anything for the future. He followed up the worst season of his career with 4 straight Rocket Richards, 1 Hart trophy and 3 consecutive 50 goal seasons. Don't count him out just yet.
I think the Caps transitioned from being a run and gun team to being a defensive team at the wrong time. The Caps didn't have the personnel to play that type of game until Barry Trotz came along. The Caps had by far the best shot at the Cup these past two years and they blew it twice. Pittsburgh was better in the 2016 series but the Caps really should've won the 2017 series against a depleted Penguins team.
Except Crosby and Malkin don't play on the same line, so how are they padding each other's stats besides on the PP?
I checked the 2008 season Ovechkin spent 60% Of the time with Kozlov and 59% with Backstrom 5 on 5. So more than half of the time Backstrom was on the ice. Ovechkin even strength point in 2006 and 2007 was 52 and 55. Points. He average 71 even strength points from 2008 to 2010. An 18 point increase I think Backstrom gets some credit for that. That 2008 Ovechkin had a lot more points than Backstorm but doesn't mean Backstorm wasn't a factor on a lot of his points.
Very hard for you confince me that Backstrom has nothing to do with Ovechkin points. So tell me if Backstrom wasn't around. Would Ovechkin still get the same amount even strength points?
Backstorm is a product of Ovechkin Green Semin of course those players get some credit. But to say his.100 point was product of those players is ridiculous. When you have time go YouTube watch some of his passes he makes.
To have any evidences that's goal are more valuable that assist or is that just your opinion? When debating I like it When some evidences is provided.
So all the active players Ovechkin is ranked 1st in gpg and 17th in apg and 3rd in ppg? Malkin 4th in gpg and 3rd in apg and 2nd in ppg. So how does that make Ovechkin better than Malkin? If you value goal scoring so much. I am surprised Bure is not in this conversation. Bure does have a higher goal per a game than Ovechkin. I dont see you or anyone else that is saying Bure is the best Russian player.
I admit Ovechkin is a much a better goal scoring. I am not debating that. But doesnt mean he is better player because of thst skillset.
Yes Ovechkin bad season doesn't have impact on the future. I brought that up because comparing a lot of Malkin vs Ovechkin seasons. Ovechkin best season was a nose hair better than malkin. Ovechkin worst season was worst than Malkin
You did agree Malkin is better in the playoffs than Ovechkin. You also wrote there are argument that Ovechkin is better than Malkin and argument Malkin is better than Ovechkin. I am assuming you are talking about regular season because playoffs you said Malkin is better.
So therefore shouldn't you think Malkin be better than Ovechkin? Reg season There are arguments both ways and playoff there is no strong argument from you since you admit that Malkin is better in the playoffs.
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