LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016 Draft) IX

[psycho_dad*]

I in fact see the situation in the way that we have a few pathetic Finns whom are butt kissing the North Americans as hard as they can. Probably wannabe Americans with the typical low Finnish self esteem. And envious of very well doing young Finnish country mates. These posters are in fact the minority in the Finnish hockey fans, but they think that they are somehow the majority. Thank God that is not the truth though. But I at least am ashamed of these kind of posters specifically.

This is a very real thing unfortunately. Happy that someone else recognized it too. The apologetic herd who get told their opinions by what they think is concensus. The "Laine will never be as good as X" who completely fail to understand that hockey like everything else is always evolving and that there will be better players than the greats of today and yesteryear.

There is no reason not to think that Laine ceiling is possibly up there with these greats. He is one of the best 18 year olds ever judging by his tools and his season, why do people need to downplay that and act like he's not on a path to become a special player?

Laine is a better player at 18 than for example Ovechkin was. It is a realistic projection that his ceiling could match or surpass Ovys prime.

Nobody should feel ashamed for stating facts in fear of some ignorant posters replying with ridicule. Just because they don't have proper context and knowledge (especially these fools with their NHL-e arguments read from some idiotic article )doesn't mean you have to side with them and pretend their opinion is valuable. It isn't, it's ignorance.

Some Finns have always shown this apologetic inferiority complex when it comes to their countrymen. It's like they are ashamed of where they are from and by default everything is bigger and better elsewhere despite how much the evidence is against that claim. Wannabes is a great term for these weak fools.

I am not ashamed of them, they are just a sad bunch who don't represent me in any way.

 

[Stephen]

Actually no, but yours is an example of people misunderstanding a completely unattached tangential notion to have something to do about the Laine debate.

Mine was an off-handed comment chastising the sadly common misconception that only NHL hockey is "real" hockey and everything else is a sideshow at best.

You don't need to chastise that "misconception" because when a North American fanbase is discussing players for the NHL draft, it really doesn't matter if you draft an international tournament winning beast if he can't translate to the NHL. In that sense, you're emphasizing accomplishments which aren't that important. I'm sure the Winnipeg Jets are happy with Laine's international track record, but their main interest is going to be what he can do in Winnipeg.

 

[Joe MacMillan]

I think Armia won't amount to much, personally. He will try for a couple of years and then maybe go play somewhere else. He is 23 and has done jack squat so far.

Color me surprised if Laine won't end up being better than Armia, but Laine becoming anything close to a Lemieux is practically impossible.

 

[Brock Radunske]

How many goals is Laine going to score next year?

 

[BB88]

This thread is embarassing, draft day can't come soon enough and maybe some will stop commenting at that point.

This is brutal, this was getting better before combine week and now here we are again.
Please let's wake up and start writing a bit better, stop the .... overhyping and some the hating.

Laine has a dream and he's not afraid to say it, it can't be the worst thing in the World.

 

[vaiski]

How many goals is Laine going to score next year?

8 according to NHLe.

 

[CashMash]

This is a very real thing unfortunately. Happy that someone else recognized it too. The apologetic herd who get told their opinions by what they think is concensus. The "Laine will never be as good as X" who completely fail to understand that hockey like everything else is always evolving and that there will be better players than the greats of today and yesteryear.

There is no reason not to think that Laine ceiling is possibly up there with these greats. He is one of the best 18 year olds ever judging by his tools and his season, why do people need to downplay that and act like he's not on a path to become a special player?

Laine is a better player at 18 than for example Ovechkin was. It is a realistic projection that his ceiling could match or surpass Ovys prime.

Nobody should feel ashamed for stating facts in fear of some ignorant posters replying with ridicule. Just because they don't have proper context and knowledge (especially these fools with their NHL-e arguments read from some idiotic article )doesn't mean you have to side with them and pretend their opinion is valuable. It isn't, it's ignorance.

Some Finns have always shown this apologetic inferiority complex when it comes to their countrymen. It's like they are ashamed of where they are from and by default everything is bigger and better elsewhere despite how much the evidence is against that claim. Wannabes is a great term for these weak fools.

He will be a special player and he is AMONG the best prospects currently around if he lives up to his potential, but one never knows. He has some holes to improve in his game, including his acceleration. Almost no one is saying he isn't going to be good.

However, there is such a thing as being objective, looking at things without bias. He isn't THE best prospect around. That is McDavid. Also, when comparing people to the greats, I think one should keep in mind that people can bust too. If Laine lives up to his potential, he COULD be a 40-50 goal scorer, but he can also be much worse.

Personally, I have him on the same tier like Matthews and Eichel, but I also realize that as of now, Matthews has a more complete game and looks more ready for the game on the small ice. After adapting, Laine may well surpass him.

Accusing me of being an apologist for not thinking that "Laine isn't as good as X" (with the X in this case being McDavid) makes no sense, since the only young player I would take above Barkov, for example, is McDavid. I think Barkov, with his defensive and offensive capabilities, along with his sky-high hockey IQ, will be better than Eichel and Matthews.

 

[Stephen]

This is a very real thing unfortunately. Happy that someone else recognized it too. The apologetic herd who get told their opinions by what they think is concensus. The "Laine will never be as good as X" who completely fail to understand that hockey like everything else is always evolving and that there will be better players than the greats of today and yesteryear.

There is no reason not to think that Laine ceiling is possibly up there with these greats. He is one of the best 18 year olds ever judging by his tools and his season, why do people need to downplay that and act like he's not on a path to become a special player?

Laine is a better player at 18 than for example Ovechkin was. It is a realistic projection that his ceiling could match or surpass Ovys prime.

Nobody should feel ashamed for stating facts in fear of some ignorant posters replying with ridicule. Just because they don't have proper context and knowledge (especially these fools with their NHL-e arguments read from some idiotic article )doesn't mean you have to side with them and pretend their opinion is valuable. It isn't, it's ignorance.

Some Finns have always shown this apologetic inferiority complex when it comes to their countrymen. It's like they are ashamed of where they are from and by default everything is bigger and better elsewhere despite how much the evidence is against that claim. Wannabes is a great term for these weak fools.

Let's clear up one thing first. Laine is NOT better than Ovechkin at 18, and there's no shame in that.

But the following is how you've managed to arrive at your conclusion:

Step one: isolate a small portion of Laine's game and make extremely loftly comparisons to names like Ovechkin and Kovalchuk.

Step two: over time, start ignoring the differences in their all around game, namely explosive skating, physicality and other tools that make Ovechkin unique.

Step three: selectively point at tournaments and playoff success and compare it to Ovechkin's track record. Take out all context like the Russian league was vastly superior to the Liiga and come to some conclusion that Laine may have had a better season.

Step four: confidently assert that Laine is superior to Ovechkin and has a very real ability to surpass him.

You basically isolated one aspect of Laine's game to get the foot in the door, multiplied it by some FEL run and 3 great games against Hungary, Belarus and France on the international stage and arrived at the fact that Laine is superior to an all-time great.

If Laine were truly superior to Ovechkin, who himself was called the best prospect since Lemieux in 2004, why on earth is Auston Matthews the first overall prospect? As much as I am a Matthews fan, I'm pretty sure he's not in the same league as Ovechkin was back in 2004.

 

[Joe MacMillan]

This is a very real thing unfortunately. Happy that someone else recognized it too. The apologetic herd who get told their opinions by what they think is concensus. The "Laine will never be as good as X" who completely fail to understand that hockey like everything else is always evolving and that there will be better players than the greats of today and yesteryear.

There is no reason not to think that Laine ceiling is possibly up there with these greats. He is one of the best 18 year olds ever judging by his tools and his season, why do people need to downplay that and act like he's not on a path to become a special player?

Laine is a better player at 18 than for example Ovechkin was. It is a realistic projection that his ceiling could match or surpass Ovys prime.

Nobody should feel ashamed for stating facts in fear of some ignorant posters replying with ridicule. Just because they don't have proper context and knowledge (especially these fools with their NHL-e arguments read from some idiotic article )doesn't mean you have to side with them and pretend their opinion is valuable. It isn't, it's ignorance.

Some Finns have always shown this apologetic inferiority complex when it comes to their countrymen. It's like they are ashamed of where they are from and by default everything is bigger and better elsewhere despite how much the evidence is against that claim. Wannabes is a great term for these weak fools.

I am not ashamed of them, they are just a sad bunch who don't represent me in any way.

I guess you guys are running out of arguments as the "jealousy" card is being pulled.

"Oh, they must have an inferiority complex and be jealous since they don't agree with us."

What a delusional bunch.

 

[CashMash]

Color me surprised if Laine won't end up being better than Armia, but Laine becoming anything close to a Lemieux is practically impossible.

Point and impact wise, I definitely agree. Stylistically, it isn't all that impossible. He has great hands and a natural scoring ability with a good glide. The only problem is that he lacks acceleration. In the worst case, I hope he adopts a Jagr-like game of using his big frame to compensate for his lack of impactful first steps. Jagr doesn't use his speed too much and has still managed to be great goalscorer.

 

[Marre]

I suppose it is possible and fair to compare Laine to Armia and expect similar career. They have things in common, they are same nationality, play hockey as wingers and have similar size. As well we can compare Auston Matthews to Austin Watson, both hail from same country, have played center and while Watson is little bigger, Matthews is not small either. Even their first names are close. And when we are at it, we can also compare Jesse Puljujärvi to other Finnish Jesses Niinimäki and Joensuu. They too have things in common.

On the other hand I'm not sure what good or sense these comparisons do and do people really expect Auston Matthews have a Austin Watson type of career just because both are Americans and play center and were/will be first round draft choices? If not, why we assume Armia and Laine will have similar career?

 

[BWDude]

Oh come on guys,

couple of Finns here might have lost the moped from their mittens in their projections of Laine future career, but i dont think that the rest of the hfboards posters are going to make ridiculous conclusions like "most Finns are delusional homers". At least they shouldn't.

I also think that it's a bit weird how some posters here seem to get so personally upset when a handfull of those overenthusiastic Finns compare Laine to Ovie or *glup* dare i say the Canadian heroes like Lemiuex. It is just natural to hype your countrymen or the players in your team. If it's a bit over the top, just let it be. Time will tell who was right.



This please, i't would provide great entertainment for years

See the problem with that- is that many other posters get so personally upset when Leafs fans hype up Mitch Marner to guys like Patrick Kane or even *gulp* McDavid, or Nylander to guys like Giroux or even *gulp* Forsberg, or even Rielly to a #1 D-man or even *gulp* Duncan Keith.

They've been endlessly **** on and criticized for overhyping, even when the numbers/awards technically warrant it, that Leafs fans wont stand for people simply saying that oh yeah Laine is the next Ovi or Lemieux when they've been told to tone it down with their guys.

That is the problem here, are we all allowed to hype our guys or is it better to temper expectations?

 

[Joe MacMillan]

Point and impact wise, I definitely agree. Stylistically, it isn't all that impossible. He has great hands and a natural scoring ability with a good glide. The only problem is that he lacks acceleration. In the worst case, I hope he adopts a Jagr-like game of using his big frame to compensate for his lack of impactful first steps. Jagr doesn't use his speed too much and has still managed to be great goalscorer.

Yeah stylistically I can definitely see where people are coming from with the Lemieux comparison.

 

[CashMash]

See the problem with that- is that many other posters get so personally upset when Leafs fans hype up Mitch Marner to guys like Patrick Kane or even *gulp* McDavid, or Nylander to guys like Giroux or even *gulp* Forsberg, or even Rielly to a #1 D-man or even *gulp* Duncan Keith.

They've been endlessly **** on and criticized for overhyping, even when the numbers/awards technically warrant it, that Leafs fans wont stand for people simply saying that oh yeah Laine is the next Ovi or Lemieux when they've been told to tone it down with their guys.

That is the problem here, are we all allowed to hype our guys or is it better to temper expectations?

Better to temper expectations. Prospect development isn't always linear.

 

[IamherefortheFinn]

To some degree yes, but also keep in mind that a lot of us think with our club teams in mind, so a Canadian who prefers an American as opposed to a Finn isn't thinking about nationalistic homerism, because honestly, if Laine played Matthews game, and Matthews was a big time scorer, you'd see Leafs fans prefer the Finn. Nor is there any real North American solidarity. Nor are Leafs fans going to be pumping the tires of every Canadian kid, just because they're Canadian. So in a lot of ways this crazy nationalism talk is more on the Finnish end.

Sure, that's why i added the "or the players in your team" part. I would think that for most Finns, our NT is the most important of all teams. And club hockey is more or less the side show.

Over the past couple of years i have seen here a lot of hype of the players of the fans own teams. For example a certain Nylander comes to my mind. I have to admit though that the Laine hypetrain has been way way stronger. But that's probably because it has been so long since there has been a Finnish player that is projected to be a truly elite goal scorer (IMHO of course) and never a player that has been so great so young in the WCH (which is basically the same here as Stanley Cup is in Canada).

 

[ijuka]

Step three: selectively point at tournaments and playoff success and compare it to Ovechkin's track record. Take out all context like the Russian league was vastly superior to the Liiga and come to some conclusion that Laine may have had a better season.

Is that so? I was looking some stuff up about the 2003-2004 season. At the time, I came across the player Tero Lehterä

In 2001-2002, at the age of 29 to start the season, his points in FEL were 6+13=19 in 50 games.

In 2002-2003, at the age of 30 to start the season, his points in FEL were 7+8=15 in 55 games.

In 2003-2004, at the age of 31 to start the season, his points in REL were 16+11=27 in 55 games.

Did he peak at 31, performing so much better in a tougher league, even?

 

[BWDude]

Better to temper expectations. Prospect development isn't always linear.

Exactly, because I'm fine with Laine being the next Ovi/Lemieux, if Marner can be the next Kane, Nylander the next Giroux, Rielly the next Keith and Matthews the next Sakic/Kopitar/Malkin/Teows.

But really? There are points to support each and every one of those comparisons/projections, but bottom line is that is a completely and utterly ridiculous statement.

You see the problem people have now with people saying that Laine is the next so and so?

Through the years, we as HF has FORCED tempered expectations to every single fanbase and people expect posters to just simply say yeah I'm fine with Laine being the next Lemieux/Ovi? It's simply not gonna happen.

 

[CashMash]

Exactly, because I'm fine with Laine being the next Ovi/Lemieux, if Marner can be the next Kane, Nylander the next Giroux, Rielly the next Keith and Matthews the next Sakic/Kopitar/Malkin/Teows.

But really? There are points to support each and every one of those comparisons/projections, but bottom line is that is a completely and utterly ridiculous statement.

You see the problem people have now with people saying that Laine is the next so and so?

Through the years, we as HF has FORCED tempered expectations to every single fanbase and people expect posters to just simply say yeah I'm fine with Laine being the next Lemieux/Ovi? It's simply not gonna happen.

I never argued the opposite, if you look at my post history.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Man this kid is going to get destroyed on HFBOARDS if he doesn't score 30 out of the gate...

 

[BWDude]

I never argued the opposite, if you look at my post history.

Yeah I agreed, and sorry didn't mean to direct it at you, more of in general:

"Do people see what the problem is in letting guys overhype Laine? It's simply not HFBoards if it isn't followed by ways to temper expectations."

 

[Lempo]

You don't need to chastise that "misconception" because when a North American fanbase is discussing players for the NHL draft, it really doesn't matter if you draft an international tournament winning beast if he can't translate to the NHL. In that sense, you're emphasizing accomplishments which aren't that important. I'm sure the Winnipeg Jets are happy with Laine's international track record, but their main interest is going to be what he can do in Winnipeg.

In that context you do have a point, but I made my post just in general sense in face of the common "NHLers don't care about international tourneys" stripe. Despite my flag I'm not here to make a case for Laine 1OA. Toronto's gonna take Matthews, and anyway I like Laine in Jets better. Besides I want the boy to stay hungry, the rookie season is coming up.

Though, as the draft goes I do believe Matthews showing up for and in the tourney did good to his stocks for the Draft, and likewise had he shown lack of interest at some point it would probably have effected negatively in the teams' eyes. He did well to do well.

Sharks also probably are kind of happy to have signed Donskoi after his beasting in last year's WHC.

Plus, the one thing common to all the players in NHL draft is that pretty much no one of them can claim to be NHL-proven. So having proven yourself in some other environment is probably a bonus.

 

[Halberdier]

How many goals is Laine going to score next year?

10-15 at least, maybe 20-25. If he is healthy during his first season and plays in PP. He is very, very young to play in NHL. Whopping 7 months younger than Matthews.

He might be one day that 50-goal monster, but he himself said that he needs 5 years to be at that (Ovechkin) level.

 

[ijuka]

Better to temper expectations. Prospect development isn't always linear.

It's always more interesting to talk about what could be in the best case scenario. His leg trick deke is the best I've ever seen, as an example! (Let's discuss this, attempt to look up better ones)

 

[IamherefortheFinn]

See the problem with that- is that many other posters get so personally upset when Leafs fans hype up Mitch Marner to guys like Patrick Kane or even *gulp* McDavid, or Nylander to guys like Giroux or even *gulp* Forsberg, or even Rielly to a #1 D-man or even *gulp* Duncan Keith.

They've been endlessly **** on and criticized for overhyping, even when the numbers/awards technically warrant it, that Leafs fans wont stand for people simply saying that oh yeah Laine is the next Ovi or Lemieux when they've been told to tone it down with their guys.

That is the problem here, are we all allowed to hype our guys or is it better to temper expectations?

Looks like some of the Leafs fans have a lot in common with some of the Finnish fans then

I dont know that much about Marner, Nylander or Rielly, and i think that it's unlikely that they will become as good as Patrick Kane, McDavid, Giroux, Forsberg or Keith. But if some Leafs fans think that, then good for them. I don't feel the need to go to their threads to tell how much worse they are in some aspects of their games.

 

[CashMash]

Man this kid is going to get destroyed on HFBOARDS if he doesn't score 30 out of the gate...

I am afraid of this too. He might have a solid rookie season of 20+ goals and something like 40+ points and people will still say he was underwhelming. He is young and hasn't played on the smaller ice before, so I wouldn't be too shocked if it takes him some time to adjust.