LW Lawson Crouse - Kingston Frontenacs, OHL (2015 Draft)

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Was the team much better when Bennett scored 91 points and got picked 4th overall?

Much, much, MUCH more offensively gifted. The Fronts scored 300+ goals last season. They're on pace for around 180 goals this year.

Deeper and more talented blueline, too, which contributed to getting the puck up to the forwards. This year's blueline is an offensive black hole.
 
Was the team much better when Bennett scored 91 points and got picked 4th overall?

Actually it was a better team, a lot deeper up front, they scored a lot as a team as well. This year Kingston hasn't scored very much at all and they have a first year coach in the OHL, they score by committee.
 
My player comparison I've used for him is Andrew Ladd. I think he's got a better release on his shot, so I'd predict a better goal scoring version of Ladd as his current ceiling, based on what he's done to this point.

I can kinda see where you're coming from, so I'll say that's a fair enough ceiling, but I think Ladd got(/gets, obviously) around the ice a lot better than Crouse. Wasn't necessarily better positionally because of it, but without that edge in that aspect in particular, I don't think he jumps to the NHL so quickly during his first year in the A. So if Crouse can improve his stock in that comparison, I'd probably put his ceiling at Ladd level, period. And I suppose I consider Ladd to have been a bit more physically assertive back in the day, and that continues to be an aspect that gets him space and opportunity at the top level. I've seen Crouse lean on people and such, but I certainly wouldn't describe him as a "banger". Grinder/"mucker", sure - with a pretty good shot, mind you. And he just showed a pretty good ability to hold down the role. I think that's another important consideration when projecting not just scoring ability but opportunity at the NHL level.
 
I can kinda see where you're coming from, so I'll say that's a fair enough ceiling, but I think Ladd got(/gets, obviously) around the ice a lot better than Crouse. Wasn't necessarily better positionally because of it, but without that edge in that aspect in particular, I don't think he jumps to the NHL so quickly during his first year in the A. So if Crouse can improve his stock in that comparison, I'd probably put his ceiling at Ladd level, period. And I suppose I consider Ladd to have been a bit more physically assertive back in the day, and that continues to be an aspect that gets him space and opportunity at the top level. I've seen Crouse lean on people and such, but I certainly wouldn't describe him as a "banger". Grinder/"mucker", sure - with a pretty good shot, mind you. And he just showed a pretty good ability to hold down the role. I think that's another important consideration when projecting not just scoring ability but opportunity at the NHL level.

With regards to the bolded, I'd disagree. If anything, I'd say Crouse is more physical than Ladd was at the same age.

I don't know how many OHL games you've seen him play, but he's a lot more abrasive in the OHL than he was at the WJC. I think he was being a bit conservative because he didn't want to get called for penalties and cost his team with how the international referees call games (Ritchie took a couple of penalties for hits that in the OHL would simply be considered good, hard hits). He throws a lot more big hits in the OHL, and has a much more "nasty" game than what he showed for Team Canada.

I also don't agree that Ladd's any better a skater than Crouse. Crouse moves around the ice very well for a 6'4 guy. He's not Pavel Bure out there, of course. But I'd say he's above average for a guy that big.
 
This line of thinking would have resulted in people scoffing at the idea Ryan Getzlaf had the tools to be a potential 90-point star center in the NHL because he only scored 68 points in his draft year.

"What? How the heck is Getzlaf going to score 90 points in the NHL?! He didn't even score 70 points in his draft year! 68 points are paltry numbers for a supposed future NHL superstar"

That's essentially what a lot of people are doing with Crouse. Ignoring the factors behind why his production is lower than expected, and ignore his actual toolset that scouts look at when trying to project a player at the NHL level.

Getzlaf was picked 19th, and he was quite the gamble. It worked out well, but if you pick someone with Getzlaf's draft-year junior numbers (ignoring hindsight) in the top 5, you should be fired. Also, Getzlaf was more skilled at his age than Crouse.

Again, it obviously was a good gamble that time, but that wont happen most of the time.
 
That's probably because the Leafs have plenty of high skilled forwards already and a guy like Crouse would definitely compliment them nicely.

Most teams picking in that range usually don't have those type of players in place and need more of a building block player than Crouse appears to be.

I'm high on Crouse for the Avs for this reason. Their talented centers need talented PF to create space and he wouldn't be counted on to be the key piece of the offense. They need more of a physical presence too. Contrary to popular belief, I find it still more likely they take a forward over defense. There is a lot more in the prospect pipeline at defense than forward and won't be in a position to take Hanifin. I'd be comfortable taking Crouse after the top 5 picks.
 
I've actually answered the question about why his production in the OHL may not be that high is numerous times. People just seem to ignore it.

So at the risk of being a broken record...

He's on pace for 34 goals. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his goal scoring production when you compare him to other recent high picks. Ritchie (39 goals), Bennett (36 goals), MDC (39 goals), and Perlini (34 goals) were all top rated players from Last year's draft, and no one seemed to have an issue with their goal scoring production.

Where his production seems low is his assist totals. Kingston has a dreadful time scoring goals, period. And he's generally been playing on a line with two guys who were struggling to score goals early on (Kujawinski and McGlynn). Kind of hard to have big assist totals when the guys on your line aren't burying the puck.

This is where I don't think people are fully aware of the situation in Kingston enough to understand why his totals are low. Kingston is the THIRD LOWEST SCORING TEAM in the entire OHL. They're not even on pace for 200 goals this year. Add to that, they've been hit by a rash of injuries to their select few guys who actually can score goals, and it's no wonder Crouse's production isn't high.

This post will probably be ignored again, and we'll have people asking "why isn't he producing" every single time his name is brought up. But there it is. He plays on a team that struggles to score, and usually on a line with no goal scorers (the only "pure" scorer Kingston has is Spencer Watson, and he's not been Crouse's linemate all year).

I did some statistical investigation based on the hypothesis that Crouse's low production isn't his fault.

I (pain-stakingly, I might add) counted shot totals in games with Crouse in and with Crouse gone. I determined that the Fronts average 35.6 shots per game with Crouse, and 29.7 shots per game without Crouse. That seems significant. However, I also calculated the team shooting percentages with Crouse and without Crouse: 8.89% with Crouse, 5.69% without Crouse (so for what it's worth, Kingston isn't an exceptionally bad offensive team, but rather has had utterly horrible shooting luck during the duration of Crouse's absense). So my hypothesis that Crouse was just getting ****** shooting luck is much less likely than I thought. However, the ~16% decrease in shots seems significant and suggests that Crouse's offensive impact is not negligible (and possibly significant).

I also did the same for shots against. I found that the Fronts had 30.0 shots against per game with Crouse, and 31.8 shots against per game without Crouse. This 5.7% increase in shots against is much smaller, but still notable I guess. I just did it because the data seemed incomplete without at least knowing it.

For reference I did the same tracking for Connor McDavid to see how Erie was affected by his loss during the injury and the WJC. I found that Erie experienced a 5% decrease in shots for without McDavid and a 12% increase in shots against.

This (very crude) data would suggest one of three things: Crouse's offensive impact on Kingston is three times greater than McDavid's is on Erie; Kingston has absolutely no replacement for Crouse's role for when he's gone, while Strome is a suitable replacement for McDavid; this data is absolutely meaningless since it is all situations and doesn't take into account score effects or other possible injuries or absences on these teams. The third option seems the most likely, but all three options have merit in my opinion.


And yet, there are still a ton of questions unanswered. Firstly, even if you only look at the games in which Crouse did play, he was only in on 21% of his team's goals (16 points on 76 goals). Compared to this, Strome is at 41%, Marner is at 50%, Barzal is at 49%, and even Travis Konecny, whose offensive production has been a much-maligned topic this draft season, has points on 27 percent of his team's goals.

Another thing would be ice time. One thing about bad CHL teams is that they tend to play their best players a TON. Players like DeAngelo, Domi, and Fabbri all play like half of their team's minutes. Per http://chlstats.pythonanywhere.com/players/OHL/2014/, Marner plays about 27.5 minutes a game, Crouse about 26.7 minutes a game, McDavid 26.3, Strome 24.6, Konecny 22.3, Zacha 17.8, etc. The disparity in ice time between Konecny and Zacha particularly would help to explain their slightly underwhelming stats. But Crouse plays a ****-ton of minutes, so he doesn't have that explanation to work with. Crouse's points per ice time is truly pitiful.

As for Kingston being poor offensively, Crouse is 5th on his team in PPG. Considering that he plays as much or more than any other Kingston forward, I find that suspect. For example, take Pavel Zacha. He is hovering right below a PPG, which needless to say is less than anticipated. However, he's 3rd on his team in PPG (behind only DeAngelo, an established star-level offensive D in the CHL, and Nikita Korostelev, another potential 1st rounder this year). And then if you look at estimated ice time, you see that DeAngelo plays almost twice as many minutes as Zacha, and also that Korostelev plays about 1.5 minutes more per game as well (and his PPG is not a ton higher than Zacha's). This a very telling discrepancy between Crouse, and another player whose offensive stats have been in question.

One thing going for Crouse is that of his 16 points, 12 are at even strength (3 PPG's and 1 ENG).
 
I did some statistical investigation based on the hypothesis that Crouse's low production isn't his fault.

I (pain-stakingly, I might add) counted shot totals in games with Crouse in and with Crouse gone. I determined that the Fronts average 35.6 shots per game with Crouse, and 29.7 shots per game without Crouse. That seems significant. However, I also calculated the team shooting percentages with Crouse and without Crouse: 8.89% with Crouse, 5.69% without Crouse (so for what it's worth, Kingston isn't an exceptionally bad offensive team, but rather has had utterly horrible shooting luck during the duration of Crouse's absense). So my hypothesis that Crouse was just getting ****** shooting luck is much less likely than I thought. However, the ~16% decrease in shots seems significant and suggests that Crouse's offensive impact is not negligible (and possibly significant).

I also did the same for shots against. I found that the Fronts had 30.0 shots against per game with Crouse, and 31.8 shots against per game without Crouse. This 5.7% increase in shots against is much smaller, but still notable I guess. I just did it because the data seemed incomplete without at least knowing it.

For reference I did the same tracking for Connor McDavid to see how Erie was affected by his loss during the injury and the WJC. I found that Erie experienced a 5% decrease in shots for without McDavid and a 12% increase in shots against.

This (very crude) data would suggest one of three things: Crouse's offensive impact on Kingston is three times greater than McDavid's is on Erie; Kingston has absolutely no replacement for Crouse's role for when he's gone, while Strome is a suitable replacement for McDavid; this data is absolutely meaningless since it is all situations and doesn't take into account score effects or other possible injuries or absences on these teams. The third option seems the most likely, but all three options have merit in my opinion.


And yet, there are still a ton of questions unanswered. Firstly, even if you only look at the games in which Crouse did play, he was only in on 21% of his team's goals (16 points on 76 goals). Compared to this, Strome is at 41%, Marner is at 50%, Barzal is at 49%, and even Travis Konecny, whose offensive production has been a much-maligned topic this draft season, has points on 27 percent of his team's goals.

Another thing would be ice time. One thing about bad CHL teams is that they tend to play their best players a TON. Players like DeAngelo, Domi, and Fabbri all play like half of their team's minutes. Per http://chlstats.pythonanywhere.com/players/OHL/2014/, Marner plays about 27.5 minutes a game, Crouse about 26.7 minutes a game, McDavid 26.3, Strome 24.6, Konecny 22.3, Zacha 17.8, etc. The disparity in ice time between Konecny and Zacha particularly would help to explain their slightly underwhelming stats. But Crouse plays a ****-ton of minutes, so he doesn't have that explanation to work with. Crouse's points per ice time is truly pitiful.

As for Kingston being poor offensively, Crouse is 5th on his team in PPG. Considering that he plays as much or more than any other Kingston forward, I find that suspect. For example, take Pavel Zacha. He is hovering right below a PPG, which needless to say is less than anticipated. However, he's 3rd on his team in PPG (behind only DeAngelo, an established star-level offensive D in the CHL, and Nikita Korostelev, another potential 1st rounder this year). And then if you look at estimated ice time, you see that DeAngelo plays almost twice as many minutes as Zacha, and also that Korostelev plays about 1.5 minutes more per game as well (and his PPG is not a ton higher than Zacha's). This a very telling discrepancy between Crouse, and another player whose offensive stats have been in question.

One thing going for Crouse is that of his 16 points, 12 are at even strength (3 PPG's and 1 ENG).

At the same time Crouse left, Kingston lost Watson, Kujawinski and Lammikko to injury.
 
With regards to the bolded, I'd disagree. If anything, I'd say Crouse is more physical than Ladd was at the same age.

I don't know how many OHL games you've seen him play, but he's a lot more abrasive in the OHL than he was at the WJC. I think he was being a bit conservative because he didn't want to get called for penalties and cost his team with how the international referees call games (Ritchie took a couple of penalties for hits that in the OHL would simply be considered good, hard hits). He throws a lot more big hits in the OHL, and has a much more "nasty" game than what he showed for Team Canada.

I'll have to take your word for it. I still remember Ladd as providing the "jam" on that line with Getzlaf and Carter at the WJC. Ladd also used to take a lot of chippy penalties that I chalk up to "aggressive play", but maybe Crouse is just more disciplined about it, I'll have to take your word for it. I'll also have to trust that Crouse occasionally drops the gloves. I haven't caught a game where he did. I know Ladd did. Somewhat famously went toe-to-toe with Phaneuf after having been teammates at that same WJC. Maybe that's part of my lingering impression, who knows.

Speaking of lingering impressions, I'm thinking that a better comparison for Crouse at the same age might even be someone like Anthony Stewart, back then. Filled a similar role, and had a similar package/skill set that attracted late 1st round attention.

I also don't agree that Ladd's any better a skater than Crouse. Crouse moves around the ice very well for a 6'4 guy. He's not Pavel Bure out there, of course. But I'd say he's above average for a guy that big.

Yeah, but here's the thing. Ladd wasn't out of place skating a regular shift with Getzlaf and Carter back in '05 (and on a team built around guys like Bergeron, Crosby, Perry, etc). THOSE are big guys who can move. Crouse looked like a good skater playing next to... Gauthier. Watching them, I simply can't reconcile Crouse as the better skater at the same age. That's both speed and agility I'm talking here, too.
 
And yet, there are still a ton of questions unanswered. Firstly, even if you only look at the games in which Crouse did play, he was only in on 21% of his team's goals (16 points on 76 goals). Compared to this, Strome is at 41%, Marner is at 50%, Barzal is at 49%, and even Travis Konecny, whose offensive production has been a much-maligned topic this draft season, has points on 27 percent of his team's goals.

Firstly, good job with the data compiling. The OHL site isn't very conducive to any sort of advanced stats or Corsi-related analysis.

As to the part of your post I quoted above, keep in mind those guys all play top PP unit for their club. I don't know whether McFarland believes in older players get priority, or what, but Crouse doesn't get the kind of PP minutes those guys do. Typically, that's where players tend to pad their stats.

Keep in mind also that the key stat that is affecting Crouse's point production is those assists. If he had, say, 10 more assists right now, would his production even be in question? I know I've stated it already, but he's on pace for 34 goals. That's not exactly bad numbers in comparison to a lot of top ten picks over the years.

And while the number crunching you did may give numerical value to it, the bottom line is the Frontenacs just aren't a very talented offensive club. They've got a couple of guys who have some talent (Polesselo and Watson) who play on a different line than Crouse, and then the recently traded Kujawinski, who got off to a horrible start goal-scoring wise and only heated up recently. The rest of the roster is, quite frankly, devoid of much offensive ability.

I know it's just speculation and can't be proven, but if Bennett hadn't gotten injured this year and was returned to Kingston, I'd bet my reputation that Crouse would have twice the points he currently has. The key point in me mentioning this is the fact that he'd have those extra points through no actual change in how he plays. He'd still be one of Kingston's best players every night like he currently is, except he'd have someone (Bennett) who could actually finish anything he creates.

I really don't know how Crouse is going to produce the rest of the year. Kingston's in firesale mode. They've already dealt Kujawinski, and talk is Bennett's rights are going to be dealt before Friday's trade deadline. On defense, one of the only guys capable of moving the puck up the ice (McEneny) is also rumored to be on the move. If Crouse gets paired with Watson and Polesselo, his offense will improve. If he's paired with McGlynn or any of the rest, there's going to be "why is he not producing more" posts up until the draft.
 
Speaking of lingering impressions, I'm thinking that a better comparison for Crouse at the same age might even be someone like Anthony Stewart, back then. Filled a similar role, and had a similar package/skill set that attracted late 1st round attention.

This is a sore spot for me, mainly because being a Kingston Frontenac season ticket holder, I was privy to watching Anthony Stewart float his way through 4 seasons in Kingston. I've never, in my almost 30 odd years of watching junior hockey, seen a more consistently lazy player than Anthony Stewart.

So I hate that comparison on the grounds that work ethic alone is as different as night and day. I knew Anthony Stewart would bust long before he even played in the NHL because he had the absolute worst work ethic and "couldn't care less" attitude I've ever seen. He was so lazy that his brother, Chris (who also has a knock on him for work ethic) stated leading up to the draft that he wanted to prove to scouts that laziness wasn't a Stewart family trait.

I will also say their skillsets aren't very similar. Stewart was a big guy who could skate real well and had a hard shot, but was a one trick pony, had zero hockey IQ, and was a heartless lazy SOB. Crouse isn't as fast a skater, but works harder, drives the net more, has good positional IQ, and battles along the boards and in front of the net.
 
Getzlaf was picked 19th, and he was quite the gamble. It worked out well, but if you pick someone with Getzlaf's draft-year junior numbers (ignoring hindsight) in the top 5, you should be fired. Also, Getzlaf was more skilled at his age than Crouse.

Again, it obviously was a good gamble that time, but that wont happen most of the time.

The bolded is my point. Not that I'm comparing Crouse with Getzlaf, but I'm talking about how people are ignoring a player's skillset and focusing completely on his junior numbers.

Scouts not picking Getzlaf top five because of his lack of offensive production is not a good thing. It means they didn't watch him closely to see the kind of tools he has, and instead just pick up a stat sheet and said, "Hmm, didn't score 100 points. No good".

Case in point: Ryan Johansen. 69 points and he went 4th overall. Why? Because even though other players outscored him, his skillset suggested he was worth a top five selection.

Case in point: Matt Duchene. A respectable 79 points and he went 3rd overall. Why? Because he was projected to be a better player than guys who went after him that outscored him (ie. Evander Kane and Brayden Schenn).

The above are exactly why NHL scouts don't just look at point totals and dismiss guys if they don't outscore their peers. HF armchair scouts, however, do. If HF was making the selections back then, Duchene probably would have went 10th overall after all the other guys who scored more than him, and Johansen would be a late first round pick. After all, like you said, a scout should be fired for taking someone with only 69 points in the top five. :sarcasm:
 
The bolded is my point. Not that I'm comparing Crouse with Getzlaf, but I'm talking about how people are ignoring a player's skillset and focusing completely on his junior numbers.

Scouts not picking Getzlaf top five because of his lack of offensive production is not a good thing. It means they didn't watch him closely to see the kind of tools he has, and instead just pick up a stat sheet and said, "Hmm, didn't score 100 points. No good".

Case in point: Ryan Johansen. 69 points and he went 4th overall. Why? Because even though other players outscored him, his skillset suggested he was worth a top five selection.

Case in point: Matt Duchene. A respectable 79 points and he went 3rd overall. Why? Because he was projected to be a better player than guys who went after him that outscored him (ie. Evander Kane and Brayden Schenn).

The above are exactly why NHL scouts don't just look at point totals and dismiss guys if they don't outscore their peers. HF armchair scouts, however, do. If HF was making the selections back then, Duchene probably would have went 10th overall after all the other guys who scored more than him, and Johansen would be a late first round pick. After all, like you said, a scout should be fired for taking someone with only 69 points in the top five. :sarcasm:
Another case that may tie into what you're saying is Zacha.
 
That's a decent game for a third overall pick.

...

Oh...three games...nevermind
 
Not for a guy who is supposed to go 3rd overall.

It seems some people are just intent on being snarky and obnoxious about whatever Crouse does from here on out, ignoring any posts that explain his production and instead comment on how he's actually playing.

Kingston scored a grand total of 9 goals this weekend. Crouse was in on 4 of those goals. He was the first star today, third star last night. The team went 2-0-1 with him returning (including a win over the #1 team in the CHL) after struggling mightily with him away at the WJC.

But hey, he should have gotten a point on all 9 goals in order to justify his current ranking.
 
I suppose it's weird for me to hear that he has good hockey strength. I figured a guy with his size, his motor, and someone who can skate well and doesn't have that production must have either stone hands or a low hockey IQ.
 
It seems some people are just intent on being snarky and obnoxious about whatever Crouse does from here on out, ignoring any posts that explain his production and instead comment on how he's actually playing.

Kingston scored a grand total of 9 goals this weekend. Crouse was in on 4 of those goals. He was the first star today, third star last night. The team went 2-0-1 with him returning (including a win over the #1 team in the CHL) after struggling mightily with him away at the WJC.

But hey, he should have gotten a point on all 9 goals in order to justify his current ranking.

That's HF for you, I wouldn't sweat it. Most of the guys commenting have actually never watched him live.
 
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