Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Legion34]

If that's the case, Toronto misplayed it. If Carolina asked for Marner, Toronto should have asked Marner. As he eventually said no, say no to the deal, with no additional detail. Canes don't need to know our business.

That’s true. I mean it would be easy to say
Mitch didn’t want to waive

It was never meant as an exhaustive list of considerations in contract negotiations or "what was important". They didn't need to have a primary assist benchmark because they already captured playmaking contributors with the more inclusive assist benchmark. And they included things like TOI and +/-, not because they were more or equally valuable as other benchmarks or stats, but because they wanted to ensure that players were not discriminated against because of their specific type of contribution. How ironic that you are now attempting to misuse it to discriminate against a player because of playstyle.

Are you going on record that a good +/- is worth the same as 60 points? And that's worth the same as going to the all star game? And that a GM pays a 20 goal scorer the same as somebody who has a good all star game performance? Speaking of which, are you saying that performance in an all star game is a significant part of contract negotiations? I guess we need to compare those then. I mean, it's worth the same as 60 points right? And the "quantified value" of getting 20 goals/60 points gets you paid... 250k? Your entire argument is built on all of that being true.

soooooooo like I said from the beginning. They did NOT use primary assists in performance bonuses because they already account for assists. So they don’t differentiate.

They don’t equate assists at all as equivalent to goals. This is repeatedly brought up by numerous agents gms and former players. Mike Johnson was on the air talking about how teams pay a premium for goals the other day on the broadcast.

They clearly did for bonuses because it takes 1.75 assists to make a goal.

They did NOT use “primary points” because that is not a category that is recognized in any league records or websites.

You have with ZERO evidence made false assertions about how GMs and agents determine contracts and just double down on being wrong.

The importance of goals over assists is widely recognized and repeatedly acknowledged in contracts. There is tons of evidence for anyone who pays attention. This is the easiest and most direct comparison because again. It’s literally quantified in the CBA.

It’s hilarious how you just double down on being wrong. Dubas broke you. I agreed with most of the the things he did. I

It’s odd when people can’t let go of being wrong.

 

[Legion34]

If it's true that Marner's camp wants $13M x 8, it could be Treliving who is countering with something like $12M x 8. Then possibly asking Marner if he would waive to go to Carolina who would offer him $13M x 8, which he said no to. Probably now we're in a holding pattern where the discussion is that Treliving says $12M x 8 today and wait-and-see with the playoffs to up the ante or take it off the table entirely. If the Leafs show potential this spring and go deep (e.g. ECF), he'd probably acquiesce to $13M x 8. If they flop out in the 1st round, then the offer would probably be off the table entirely.

Marner's logic with this in mind would be, ok, if we go to the ECF, why don't I just test UFA then and see if I can get $13.5M or even $14M from someone and see if the Leafs will match. If not, then I'll walk even if it's elsewhere and for 7 years.

That's my guess on the stalemate. I think both sides are playing it smart with the hands that they were dealt, and I think Treliving is especially playing this smart given that he has to navigate an NMC. He knew full well that Marner would veto the Rantanen trade, but approached Marner's camp just to signal his willingness to walk away from the player, either via recouping assets or for nothing come July 1st. $13M x 8 in a rising cap for a top 5-10 scoring winger isn't going to look like a crazy ask by year 2 of this contract, but it's the principle of it - there's absolutely no need to just gift out whatever a player demands, especially with guys like Knies due for a re-up shortly.

This is a radical departure to how the previous GM handled things. I for one applaud it and support whichever outcome with Marner come July 1st or sooner.

CJ has said they have refused all negotiations. Not that they disagree on numbers. They refused to discuss trades/contracts the entire time

 

[Nineteen67]

They couldn’t trade Knies for Rantanen and then lose Marner in the summer. The only way it could have worked for the Leafs is to move Marner, but for some strange reason he didn’t want to move.

 

[Nineteen67]

CJ has said they have refused all negotiations. Not that they disagree on numbers. They refused to discuss trades/contracts the entire time

He doesn’t want to negotiate a fair market deal and he wouldn’t waive his NMC.

 

[Legion34]

He doesn’t want to negotiate a fair market deal and he wouldn’t waive his NMC.

Yep. I can see how they wouldn’t want to take a deal. The numbers don’t work. Or you don’t want to stay

Why you would refuse to entertain anything is nurty

 

[NMacrules]

Marner is going to take the summer to do the "tour". Just like Tavares Marner will go to 5 or 6 cities so GM's can woo him. He is going to get 14 plus. It won't be with Leafs though.

 

[Da Mash]

So the mediots proclaim they heard this and that from their so called sources and Fans eat it up as its the truth.

What has Tre or Marner's camp publicly said? Marner camp has always said he wants to remain a leaf and Tre has always said he would love to keep Marner and you just dont let elite players like that go.

But of course the trade deadline ends and the TO mediots come out to cause a stir. We have no idea what Tre and Marner have talked about.

Now its a wait and see ....enjoy the season and the playoffs and hopefully we can have some success like winning the cup.

 

[DarkKnight]

In December, NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman said the salary cap for the 2025-26 season was projected to be $92.4 million, a $4 million jump from this season's cap of $88 million.

NHL, NHLPA announce team payroll ranges for next 3 seasons | NHL.com

Salary cap could increase to $113.5 million for 2027-28 season

www.nhl.com

I’m certainly not going to give half of it to one guy, there’s 23 guys on a team.

Dude, your numbers next year are wrong, at least deal in reality.

 

[Raging Bull]

They couldn’t trade Knies for Rantanen and then lose Marner in the summer. The only way it could have worked for the Leafs is to move Marner, but for some strange reason he didn’t want to move.

How is it strange? He wants to play it out with his friends here. Didnt want to go play mercenarie on a team for 2 months when hes not going to sign there long term. Doesn't have to uproot his life twice in the span of 6 months.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Maybe I've missed some things, but it feels like a lot of personal assumptions as to what is going on are being thrown in to come to conclusions that often involve one or more actors acting irrationally, and then skewering them for it.

First time here?

 

[DarkKnight]

I’m taking the organization at their word, and also Tre’s comments all year. Add in several insiders, who’ve said the Leafs have made big offers, and I’m leaving this current mess at the feet of Marner’s team. Don’t want to be asked to waive? Accept the sweetheart deals we’ve already put on the table. Say you want to stay here, sign a freaking contract right now? The money is good, the team is good, the family is here, the endorsements are a total bonus. So sign, or accept this uncomfortable situation, because everyday he doesn’t now, he turns this fan base against him as it sinks in he might leave for nothing, or he wants to take us to the cleaners. Nylander is over paid, ditto big sexy, so the internal cap structure guarantees Mitch gets a league wide friendly payday. There is a simple solution, and I’m convinced the Leafs aren’t the one’s wanting to wait until after the playoffs, they’ve already tried to sign him for big bucks. This whole negotiation is turning into a shit show, nice work Ferris.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They did NOT use primary assists in performance bonuses because they already account for assists. So they don’t differentiate.

They didn't differentiate when setting various benchmarks for ELC performance bonuses, because there was no reason to. They weren't trying to evaluate worth. They were trying to be as inclusive as possible of different skillsets to give ELC players that establish themselves a compensation boost. That does not equate to it not being important when establishing worth in contract negotiations. You're taking massive logical leaps here, in pursuit of a conclusion you've already decided.

You keep dodging all of the corresponding things that would need to be true for you to attempt to claim this as evidence, because you know they are unjustifiable and expose the logical flaw in your argument.

They don’t equate assists at all as equivalent to goals.

No, they equate primary assists and goals. I don't know why I have to keep reminding you what discussion we're actually having. You keep making these goals vs. total assist comparisons and statements that have no relevance in the first place.

You have with ZERO evidence made false assertions about how GMs and agents determine contracts and just double down on being wrong.

That's actually what you're doing here. I've just followed the evidence of how GMs have actually operated through cap era contract history.

The importance of goals over assists is widely recognized and repeatedly acknowledged in contracts.

The equivalent impact of goals and primary assists is widely recognised, and it's repeatedly acknowledged in contracts.

It’s odd when people can’t let go of being wrong.

It certainly is. Heck, I've even said we should just agree to disagree and move on. You can and will believe what you want to believe. But you won't rest until everybody is wrong with you.

 

[Confucius]

Dude, your numbers next year are wrong, at least deal in reality.

Well mine came from the nhl website and are for next year, yours appear to be a 3 year projection. Anyway I’d prefer to get away from the top heavy team and spread it out with a bunch of 5 to 7 million guys. Nice to have a superstar we can point to, to lead us. We have 1 locked up long term and another with a couple of years to go. That is unless we are getting a deal on a great player.

 

[Mentat]

Keep MM and give him as much AAV as he wishes. He has been an integral and fundamental part of our PO success.
We need to keep the core together for continued PO accomplishments.

 

[DarkKnight]

..

Well mine came from the nhl website and are for next year, yours appear to be a 3 year projection. Anyway I’d prefer to get away from the top heavy team and spread it out with a bunch of 5 to 7 million guys. Nice to have a superstar we can point to, to lead us. We have 1 locked up long term and another with a couple of years to go. That is unless we are getting a deal on a great player.

95.5 million, NHL announced weeks ago.

 

[Nineteen67]

Yep. I can see how they wouldn’t want to take a deal. The numbers don’t work. Or you don’t want to stay

Why you would refuse to entertain anything is nurty

Rantanen set the market on Friday.

 

[DarkKnight]

Rantanen set the market on Friday.

Yep and the fact there appears a deal for a million more already offered, it now looks greedy and ridiculous. Unless he really doesn't want to be here. There aren't many options left to entertain.

 

[Nineteen67]

How is it strange? He wants to play it out with his friends here. Didnt want to go play mercenarie on a team for 2 months when hes not going to sign there long term. Doesn't have to uproot his life twice in the span of 6 months.

For the chance to play in a new exciting market. Under the circumstance it seems like a no brainer to me

 

[Confucius]

Yep and the fact there appears a deal for a million more already offered, it now looks greedy and ridiculous. Unless he really doesn't want to be here. There aren't many options left to entertain.

It seems similar to many products, everyone wants the very best if they have the cash, even though you can get better value by buying the item just below top of the line.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner is going to take the summer to do the "tour". Just like Tavares Marner will go to 5 or 6 cities so GM's can woo him. He is going to get 14 plus. It won't be with Leafs though.

Who's playing him 14 plus when Rantanen just signed for 12? He is not somebody you hitch your cart to. He got the Leafs out of round #1 and disappeared after game 86. He is a more expensive Johnny Hockey (RIP) and JH got 9.75 after putting up a numbers Mitch can only dream about.

 

[Nineteen67]

Who's playing him 14 plus when Rantanen just signed for 12? He is not somebody you hitch your cart to. He got the Leafs out of round #1 and disappeared after game 86. He is a more expensive Johnny Hockey (RIP) and JH got 9.75 after putting up a numbers Mitch can only dream about.

He might get it in Calgary, Utah, Pitt, but I think he’s going to take a little less to play in a better market.

 

[ToneDog]

He might get it in Calgary, Utah, Pitt, but I think he’s going to take a little less to play in a better market.

I still do not see $14+m for this loser who has won nothing as an individual or for the Leafs in the NHL. Only a fool pays $14+m for expected Selkes, Molson Cups or 25 goal scorers. He'll be lucky to finally get to 100 points. That is not $14+m production.

 

[Confucius]

Marner is going to take the summer to do the "tour". Just like Tavares Marner will go to 5 or 6 cities so GM's can woo him. He is going to get 14 plus. It won't be with Leafs though.

Well if he can get that I don’t blame him for moving on. We shouldn’t offer anywhere near that. I’d rather have 2 more JT’s, or add another 2 or 3 Knies type players

 

[Mess]

What this tells us is the Leafs and management is not necessarily tied 100% to Marner with any guarantee he is returning.

If you ask a player to waive your NMC it means they liked the return they were getting.

 

[Nineteen67]

I still do not see $14+m for this loser who has won nothing as an individual or for the Leafs in the NHL. Only a fool pays $14+m for expected Selkes, Molson Cups or 25 goal scorers. He'll be lucky to finally get to 100 points. That is not $14+m production.

No, it isn’t and I think he’ll end up with taking less, but there are other teams like the Leafs that are in the marketing business, so it’s possible.
If he wants to sign in Toronto, the price should come down from anything they've offered and keeps going down every month.