LW Lawson Crouse - Kingston Frontenacs, OHL (2015 Draft)

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You mean Gauthier is not a taller Sidney Crosby ?

Crosby sleeps in Frederick Gauthier sheets at night, let's put it that way. Or is it Lawson Crouse sheets? I can't keep track anymore. Fuels the dream either way.

 

[Sundinisagod]

When I'm watched Crouse at the WJC he reminded me a lot of Marion Hossa. Do you see any truth to that comparison?

I don't see it.

 

[ldnk]

I don't see it.

I see it. When Marion Hossa is injured, Lawson Crouse scores at a similar pace. He has 47 points in 90 career OHL games. That's not a top 10 draft pick level of production.

Frederick Gauthier gets criticized at times for not being a good 1st round player. He was drafted late in the 1st round and has 127 points in 133 games. Even if we accept that the QMJHL is a scoring league and cut his point totals in half. He still outscores Crouse 63.5 to 47.

I just don't see it with Crouse. He's big so he will play in the NHL at some point, but I just don't see any sort of production out of him. The list of guys who didn't score well in Junior hockey and then went on to be good scorers in the NHL is a short one (it's essentially non-existent).

 

[thething]

Its come to the point where I want to root for the guy just because of all the hate he has been receiving.

 

[Ringing Iron]

I see it. When Marion Hossa is injured, Lawson Crouse scores at a similar pace. He has 47 points in 90 career OHL games. That's not a top 10 draft pick level of production.

Frederick Gauthier gets criticized at times for not being a good 1st round player. He was drafted late in the 1st round and has 127 points in 133 games. Even if we accept that the QMJHL is a scoring league and cut his point totals in half. He still outscores Crouse 63.5 to 47.

I just don't see it with Crouse. He's big so he will play in the NHL at some point, but I just don't see any sort of production out of him. The list of guys who didn't score well in Junior hockey and then went on to be good scorers in the NHL is a short one (it's essentially non-existent).

You don't see it because you aren't actually watching his games. It's clear that this is a statement based solely on looking at his statline. It's not fair. Watch the kid play and you will know that he creates chances and while the production isn't "Top 10" worthy, it's not because he CAN'T. Unlike Frederik Gauthier, Crouse's hockey sense, specifically offensive instincts, is quite high

 

[Dave Hahn]

Looking forward to getting a look at Crouse tonight. I'm hoping the line match situation will see Crouse go head to head against Strome's line. Trap team vs. run and gun.

Should be a dandy.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You don't see it because you aren't actually watching his games. It's clear that this is a statement based solely on looking at his statline. It's not fair. Watch the kid play and you will know that he creates chances and while the production isn't "Top 10" worthy, it's not because he CAN'T. Unlike Frederik Gauthier, Crouse's hockey sense, specifically offensive instincts, is quite high

It would actually be interesting to hear how many games of Crouse's his "haters" have actually watched. Based on the constant and repetitive arguments they come up with that are 100% based on his point total (not once actually discussing his game or his skillset), my guess is zero (or maybe they caught one or two of his shifts at the WJC).

If NHL teams ran their scouting department like HF, they wouldn't even bother go watching these players live. They'd just sit at the office, open a web browser, and see which player has the most points and draft that guy.

 

[West]

It would actually be interesting to hear how many games of Crouse's his "haters" have actually watched. Based on the constant and repetitive arguments they come up with that are 100% based on his point total (not once actually discussing his game or his skillset), my guess is zero (or maybe they caught one or two of his shifts at the WJC).

Have to admit this is me, but it's also pretty rare that players but up a better pt/gm in NHL than in junior. Do you want to draft Manny Malhotra in the top ten cause that's probably the best comparable I can come up with?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=25931

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Whoever drafts him should give him lots of development time to fine tune his offensive game. He could probably be a decent 3-4 line player right away, but he could be a lot better with time to build that confidence offensively

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Have to admit this is me, but it's also pretty rare that players but up a better pt/gm in NHL than in junior. Do you want to draft Manny Malhotra in the top ten cause that's probably the best comparable I can come up with?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=25931

Skillset. If one watches Crouse actually *play* and sees a comparison to Malhotra as a junior, then I don't know what to say. And that's my issue with the stat watchers. You're coming up with comparables based on STATS, not based on whether or not the two players being compared actually have similar skills or tools.

Your method is as flawed as looking at Corey Locke's stats when he put up 151 points and saying "the closest comparison I can find is Sidney Crosby's 168 points", and then drawing the conclusion that that means that's what you should have expected from Locke at the NHL level, then wonder why he didn't produce like Crosby in the NHL. Anyone who actually WATCHED Locke, and not just looked up his stat line, would have seen he wasn't going to be a star NHLer like Crosby, despite their similarity in points in junior.

(By the way, if we're sticking to the stats argument, I'm willing to bet that by the time Crouse is 19 years old, in his 4th junior season, he'll be well above a point per game.)

 

[bert]

Have to admit this is me, but it's also pretty rare that players but up a better pt/gm in NHL than in junior. Do you want to draft Manny Malhotra in the top ten cause that's probably the best comparable I can come up with?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=25931

Unbelievable post after what everyone is discussing.

The people that have actually watched Crouse like him and the people that havent dont. The scouts that watch Crouse too like him, shocker.

 

[bert]

Skillset. If one watches Crouse actually *play* and sees a comparison to Malhotra as a junior, then I don't know what to say. And that's my issue with the stat watchers. You're coming up with comparables based on STATS, not based on whether or not the two players being compared actually have similar skills or tools.

Your method is as flawed as looking at Corey Locke's stats when he put up 151 points and saying "the closest comparison I can find is Sidney Crosby's 168 points", and then drawing the conclusion that that means that's what you should have expected from Locke at the NHL level, then wonder why he didn't produce like Crosby in the NHL. Anyone who actually WATCHED Locke, and not just looked up his stat line, would have seen he wasn't going to be a star NHLer like Crosby, despite their similarity in points in junior.

(By the way, if we're sticking to the stats argument, I'm willing to bet that by the time Crouse is 19 years old, in his 4th junior season, he'll be well above a point per game.)

But he doesnt score right now! Dont you know that players project to the same player at the Jr level as the pro level!!!!

 

[hoc123]

Have to admit this is me, but it's also pretty rare that players but up a better pt/gm in NHL than in junior. Do you want to draft Manny Malhotra in the top ten cause that's probably the best comparable I can come up with?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=25931

HOLY CRAP. Malholtra was drafted 7'th overall.

 

[buttman*]

Skillset. If one watches Crouse actually *play* and sees a comparison to Malhotra as a junior, then I don't know what to say. And that's my issue with the stat watchers. You're coming up with comparables based on STATS, not based on whether or not the two players being compared actually have similar skills or tools.

Your method is as flawed as looking at Corey Locke's stats when he put up 151 points and saying "the closest comparison I can find is Sidney Crosby's 168 points", and then drawing the conclusion that that means that's what you should have expected from Locke at the NHL level, then wonder why he didn't produce like Crosby in the NHL. Anyone who actually WATCHED Locke, and not just looked up his stat line, would have seen he wasn't going to be a star NHLer like Crosby, despite their similarity in points in junior.

(By the way, if we're sticking to the stats argument, I'm willing to bet that by the time Crouse is 19 years old, in his 4th junior season, he'll be well above a point per game.)

I've seen Crouse play plenty. No one here is denying that he is a terrific player. They are questioning his offensive upside. There's nothing wrong with that considering he isn't putting up big points in junior. Generally players that don't put up big points in junior, don't put up numbers in the NHL.

While he's a very good prospect, number 3 is a reach considering there are questions about his offense. At number 3 you are looking for a kid that can put up big numbers. That's not saying the other kids picked behind him will put up better numbers -- just that they are and that's a consideration in draft position.

I don't care how many points Crosby or Locke put up -- this thread is about Crouse.

 

[The Sweetness]

Have to admit this is me, but it's also pretty rare that players but up a better pt/gm in NHL than in junior. Do you want to draft Manny Malhotra in the top ten cause that's probably the best comparable I can come up with?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=25931

Better Malhotra than Jamie Lundmark .

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I've seen Crouse play plenty. No one here is denying that he is a terrific player. They are questioning his offensive upside. There's nothing wrong with that considering he isn't putting up big points in junior. Generally players that don't put up big points in junior, don't put up numbers in the NHL.

While he's a very good prospect, number 3 is a reach considering there are questions about his offense. At number 3 you are looking for a kid that can put up big numbers. That's not saying the other kids picked behind him will put up better numbers -- just that they are and that's a consideration in draft position.

Where did I say anything about going 3rd overall? You're arguing something I didn't argue. I was pointing out all the stat watchers who kept harping on and on about points, points, points, and refuse to even discuss his game.

That's my pet peeve. We've gone through threads of discussion about him and the ONLY thing the detractors talk about is his point total. They don't actually talk about specific parts of his game they're not thrilled with. Just his point total. If you want to critique specific parts of his game (skating, hands, shot, goal scoring touch, playmaking ability), let's do it. I have no issue with people having concerns about his game, if they actually talk about his GAME. Instead, it's points, points, points. It's silly at this point.

Also, only one scouting service listed him at 3rd. One. Others range from 5th, to 7th, to (I believe Button) at 11th or 12th.

I don't care how many points Crosby or Locke put up -- this thread is about Crouse.

It's called an analogy, to illustrate how judging a player's future NHL potential based on his point total and the point total of players he "compares to" are extremely flawed.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I find it odd. If Crouse was an average sized forward with no notable skill set just average at everything and he was putting up spectacular numbers compared to his peers he would be a high pick. (Corey Locke and Wellwood dont count they had notably deficiencies)

Then we have Crouse who is putting up below average compared to the players around him in the draft but he supposedly has off the charts physical ability and talent

 

[sabrebuild]

Not as a hater, but let's say neutral observer, but I have watched Crouse play a fair bit and I don't see him in the top 5. Mainly I see a guy who is physically superior to pretty much everyone he plays against, has good hands that can dangle a bit, makes good yet not creative passes. I know that sounds weird but I mean he often makes a pass on the tape, but there is a lack of creativity. My biggest feeling watching him play is that I see him as a great athlete and skilled but lacking in elite iq or vision to make all of those physical abilities translate to production. Maybe its just a confidence thing and he will go off next year.

 

[West]

Skillset. If one watches Crouse actually *play* and sees a comparison to Malhotra as a junior, then I don't know what to say. And that's my issue with the stat watchers. You're coming up with comparables based on STATS, not based on whether or not the two players being compared actually have similar skills or tools.

Your method is as flawed as looking at Corey Locke's stats when he put up 151 points and saying "the closest comparison I can find is Sidney Crosby's 168 points", and then drawing the conclusion that that means that's what you should have expected from Locke at the NHL level, then wonder why he didn't produce like Crosby in the NHL. Anyone who actually WATCHED Locke, and not just looked up his stat line, would have seen he wasn't going to be a star NHLer like Crosby, despite their similarity in points in junior.

(By the way, if we're sticking to the stats argument, I'm willing to bet that by the time Crouse is 19 years old, in his 4th junior season, he'll be well above a point per game.)

Strongly suspect you weren't paying attention to draft in Malhotra draft year. It's basically what everyone is saying about Crouse, great skater great character, plays really really smart hockey, just watch him play ignore the fact he's not scoring.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Strongly suspect you weren't paying attention to draft in Malhotra draft year. It's basically what everyone is saying about Crouse, great skater great character, plays really really smart hockey, just watch him play ignore the fact he's not scoring.

You suspect wrong, then. I've followed junior players since the late 80s. I remember distinctly Malhotra's draft year, and seeing (not just looking at his stats, but watching him on the ice) a guy with limited offense, but who had a mature defensive game. That's a lot different than what I see in Crouse. I see a guy who does possess a good offensive game to go along with his other strengths.

Keep in mind also with regard to their respective production, Malhotra played on a pretty strong Storm team. Yet he still couldn't produce much. Crouse plays on a really bad offensive club in Kingston, but is still on pace for 30+ goals this year. You simply can't ignore the team they play on and the support around them when comparing players.

That's something that should be kept in mind when comparing Crouse to guys like Strome and Marner, too. How much different would their offensive productions be if it were Crouse who were on McDavid's line and playing top PP with McDavid? Would Crouse still have only 20 points in 27 games if he was playing with Max Domi?

The above isn't to discount what Marner and Strome are doing -- they're not passengers by any means, but just that it's easier to put up numbers when you play with other talented players.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

You suspect wrong, then. I've followed junior players since the late 80s. I remember distinctly Malhotra's draft year, and seeing (not just looking at his stats, but watching him on the ice) a guy with limited offense, but who had a mature defensive game. That's a lot different than what I see in Crouse. I see a guy who does possess a good offensive game to go along with his other strengths.

Keep in mind also with regard to their respective production, Malhotra played on a pretty strong Storm team. Yet he still couldn't produce much. Crouse plays on a really bad offensive club in Kingston, but is still on pace for 30+ goals this year. You simply can't ignore the team they play on and the support around them when comparing players.

That's something that should be kept in mind when comparing Crouse to guys like Strome and Marner, too. How much different would their offensive productions be if it were Crouse who were on McDavid's line and playing top PP with McDavid? Would Crouse still have only 20 points in 27 games if he was playing with Max Domi?

The above isn't to discount what Marner and Strome are doing -- they're not passengers by any means, but just that it's easier to put up numbers when you play with other talented players.

Doesnt Strome have his own line and didnt his production actually increase without McDavid

 

[w e l o s t b o y s]

Doesnt Strome have his own line and didnt his production actually increase without McDavid

These numbers might be wrong but I think he has 47 points in 22 games with Mcdavid in the lineup and 30 points in 20 games without.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

These numbers might be wrong but I think he has 47 points in 22 games with Mcdavid in the lineup and 30 points in 20 games without.

Maybe it was just for a short period of time then.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Doesnt Strome have his own line and didnt his production actually increase without McDavid

No, his production went down quite a bit when McDavid was injured/away at the WJC. It was Marner whose production went up when Domi was away at the WJC.

In any case, it wasn't a direct point for point comparison to suggest those guys are a product of their linemates/teammates. Rather, it's a factor in helping a player produce at a certain level. I don't contend that Crouse would be leading the league in points if he had McDavid centering him. I contend that he'd be well over a point per game to the point people wouldn't be asking constantly "why isn't he getting points" if he had the benefit of playing with talent like McDavid or Domi, instead of playing with the likes of Verbeek, McGlynn, Schutt and Lammikko.

Since the WJC, Crouse has actually come back and produced at over a point per game pace. This despite the fact the Frontenacs continue to struggle. My take? Crouse's gained even more confidence from his WJC experience and is on the verge of taking his game to the next level.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

No, his production went down quite a bit when McDavid was injured/away at the WJC. It was Marner whose production went up when Domi was away at the WJC.

In any case, it wasn't a direct point for point comparison to suggest those guys are a product of their linemates/teammates. Rather, it's a factor in helping a player produce at a certain level. I don't contend that Crouse would be leading the league in points if he had McDavid centering him. I contend that he'd be well over a point per game to the point people wouldn't be asking constantly "why isn't he getting points" if he had the benefit of playing with talent like McDavid or Domi, instead of playing with the likes of Verbeek, McGlynn, Schutt and Lammikko.

Since the WJC, Crouse has actually come back and produced at over a point per game pace. This despite the fact the Frontenacs continue to struggle. My take? Crouse's gained even more confidence from his WJC experience and is on the verge of taking his game to the next level.

Fair analyse. I remember watching a London versus Erie game and they bought up that stat.