LW Alexander Holtz - (2020, 7th, NJD)
- Thread starter VictorLustig
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Pavels Dog
Registered User
There might be another player on his line that I'm talking about, I don't know.
I mean... holtz is out producing eklund and has set him up for most of his goals... not sure you know what you’re talking about? Please don’t give anyone your take on a situation when you’ve clearly done no research...
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Lol, I have only watched most of the games. Plus there was some analytics showed before last game that compared Holtz/Raymond/Eklund. Eklund was way, way ahead of the others in driving the play. But, it's probably just me..
Typical stat watcher....
I've watched pretty much all of Djurgårdens games this season and most of Frölundas. Eklund is driving the play on that line, not the other way around.
Holtz is gonna be a stud, and he will for the majority of his career score more goals than Raymond. But Raymond is the better play driver and he will drive the play better down the road, which might lead to him outproducing Holtz point wise. But goal wise, Holtz will score more.
No, that's probably legit, but I think some context might be needed. I think the important thing is that both Holtz and Eklund seem to be playing well and are productive together. That suggests to me they have good chemistry and it benefits both. If the suggestion is that Holtz is a product of Eklund I'm skeptical that's the case given Holtz's history. Moreover, if Holtz is able to work well with a good playmaking center, that's essentially his future job description in NJ. Watching Holtz play with Eklund may provide some sort of glimpse into how he can play with Hughes and/or Hischier when that day comes.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
My original comment was in response to a few "Holtz is better than Raymond" comments. I think there are some issues trying to draw that conclusion right now. Holtz isn't a product of Eklund but without Eklund he would be more alone, like Raymond is.
That's Holtz strenght imo, he's not the one that gonna lead a line and drive the play. However he will make that player even better because he will deliver. I haven't seen Hughes play but I assume going #1 that he's the type of player who will have the puck on his stick and drive the play a lot, and will benefit from playing with Holtz just like Holtz will benefit from playing with him. If Holtz pan out in the NHL that is
Oneiro
Registered User
- Mar 28, 2013
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Yeah, if you put Holtz in context with either Hughes or Hischier, it makes the pick look even better for NJ. Driving play will not be a problem with those two as your centers and potentially Bratt on the other wing. He is going to be in an ideal situation for a young sniper.
I'd love to see how he improves his game without the puck since that seems to be the consistent pre-draft knock against him. I haven't been able to watch any of his games yet.
I'd love to see how he improves his game without the puck since that seems to be the consistent pre-draft knock against him. I haven't been able to watch any of his games yet.
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Colin226
NJ Devils STH
You guys are getting me so excited. Hughes was sorely missing a line mate who could finish his ridiculously good setup passes. Holtz seems like the perfect fit to play with him.
It's hf prospects board. For some reason, folks view this as some sort of zero sum situation. As if Holtz or Raymond being good somehow diminishes the other. Raymond and Holtz are different players. DET needs a young player to become a play driving center. Raymond would seem to fit that bill long term. NJ needs a finisher in the worst way. They have potential play driving centers in Hughes Hischier and maybe even Zacha if he can continue to improve. Holtz is a perfect fit for NJ. Both are excellent young players in their own right and at the end of the day, they have to blend with their respective situations to achieve their potential. If the fit isn't there they won't be their best and really, "better" and "best" are subjective terms anyway.
BondraTime
Registered User
yeah, that's true. So amend my statement to a play driver in general. My point still stands. Different players in different contexts. Both can be great and their fans should be happy. Regardless of who is "better" it won't change most people's lives. Plenty will still be in mom's basement regardless of how many pundits list one higher than the other in a prospect ranking.
BondraTime
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- Dec 20, 2018
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His overall point is correct, and it’s partly an attempt to stop this thread from becoming an endless Holtz v Raymond debate. I don’t think Holtz is significantly outperforming Raymond now and they’ve only played 17 & 21 games so I’m not getting where the grand pronouncements about either player is coming from. Also it seems like some people are using Holtz to bag on Raymond and others are using Eklund to bag on Holtz and it’s grating.
Raymond was the more highly regarded prospect before the draft and has very high ceiling as a playmaker but I feel like we don’t need to keep read people making excuses for his current production in a Holtz thread.
Here’s a site with advanced stats for SHL players. Raymond made noticeable progress this season and you can use this to defend his honor in his own thread.
(Unfortunately this very cool site sucks on smart phones to the point of being unusable on them.)
Better than a Monkey
BondraTime
Registered User
Literally only correcting him saying Raymond was a center
BurntToast
Registered User
[QUOTE="Guttersniped, post: 174617711, member: 311369"Raymond was the more highly regarded prospect before the draft and has very high ceiling as a playmaker but I feel like we don’t need to keep read people making excuses for his current production in a Holtz thread. [/QUOTE]
Umm debatable, nether were considerably better than the other. Both started in the top 5 with a slim chance at 1OA. People are banking on Raymonds “upside” because of poor stats last season. If the draft was in June, I don’t think Raymond goes 4th.
Umm debatable, nether were considerably better than the other. Both started in the top 5 with a slim chance at 1OA. People are banking on Raymonds “upside” because of poor stats last season. If the draft was in June, I don’t think Raymond goes 4th.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Personally I don't understand why so many want to moderate discussion when there is so little hockey to talk about these days.
So Holtz and Raymond will be compared, let them be. They are actually playing games, we can watch those games and form opinions. Comparing and contrasting will always happen when two players of the same position are drafted close to eachother and play in the same league.
This thread has moved about 2 pages in 2 months so I wouldn't say the thread is derailed with an abundance of off-topic discussion.
- Dec 20, 2018
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I’m not moderating anything because I’m not a board moderator and I’m not delusional enough to think that I can actually direct future discussion. I can however criticize what annoys me and aspects of HvR debate aren’t particularly illuminating and sometimes hella annoying so I’m going to poke at it.
I hear ya...I pop in here periodically to see if there is any new information about Holtz, and then I have to read through numerous posts about Raymond. That's typical of HFBoards, though. I've grown accustomed to sifting through all the rhetoric and off-topic posts to find the few posts that almost make the effort worthwhile.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
21 mentions of Raymond in a month, several being from people complaining about Raymond being mentioned. 3 pages total since being drafted. I'd say more discussion is good, and comparisons to other good young players should be pretty natural.
Is it really the goal of a message board to be:
*highlight clip posted*
"he's very good"
"I agree"
*thread dies until next time prospect creates highlight*
?
Holtz, Eklund and Raymond are all very fun prospects that warrant discussion and comparison.
21 posts mentioning/discussing Raymond over the last month in a thread devoted to Holtz seems excessive to me, but whatever...you guys talk about anything you want. Personally I find it annoying and typical of HFBoards to get into these pissing contests where some think Player A is better than Player B, etc. For the most part, I just skip over those discussions and try to find the information I was looking for.
BStinson
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- Nov 11, 2013
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That’s your speculation and Yzerman already said at a press conference during the draft he was 4th on our board before the SHL started. We have no idea where Yzerman put Holtz on the big board. Both are great prospects with a different play style and I think NJ found a perfect line mate for Hughes.
It will be very interesting to see who Holtz plays with at the WJC.
BurntToast
Registered User
I’m speaking generally. Raymond, Lundell, Holtz were considered top 5 in October, 2019. I think there is still a Bias against Russia and Euro prospects. Nether of them did anything wrong to drop (other than exposure). Hopefully all find success..
BStinson
Registered User
- Nov 11, 2013
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I don’t think Holtz or Raymond dropped because Euro bias. There were knocks on both of their games and we can say exposure for Raymond due to the limited ice time (in draft year). They went 6th and 4th (respectively) and centers & defensemen before them with the exception of AL but that’s to be expected. I don’t want to dive into this too much as it’s a Holtz thread but Lundell I expected to go higher but scouting reports questioned his offensive upside and skating so his projection was probably lower in some eyes. The only talent I saw from Europe/Russia in the first round fall would be Lundell (debatable at the time) and Askarov (goalie bias). Some may say Rossi but he had size and skating knocks for center similar to Perfetti.
