Confirmed with Link: Logan Stanley 2 years 1.25 million

Buffdog

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Obviously not to the bolded, as their quality of competition would be massively different.

You like to try to play this gotcha game, but you are just outing yourself. There is obviously no one stat, which I said right in that post, and the best tool are the cards because those guys track way more stats and then aggregate them. And yes, I am aware the cards are not perfect either.

I can live with a difference of opinion on how much better, but there is no argument Miller is not better than Stanley.
I'm not trying to "gotcha" anyone. How many times has someone (like you did with corsi rel) make a statement and use one stat to back it up? Only to backpedal and say "well, yeah but X, Y and Z" when someone refutes their opinion with another stat (or even the same one). I think it would be best if we all just stop doing it. To me, it's intellectually dishonest to only select stats that back up your argument and dismiss/dimish ones rhat don't. Doing so is blatant cognitive dissonance/confirmation bias

As I've said about the cards, they outputs rely on the weight of the inputs. I think that if you agree 100% with how they do that, then go ahead and rely on those. Personally, I refuse to outsource my thinking to anyone on any topic

As for the bolded, I agree. Which (along with the Kovacevic shit the other day) has been my entire point all along
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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I'm not trying to "gotcha" anyone. How many times has someone (like you did with corsi rel) make a statement and use one stat to back it up? Only to backpedal and say "well, yeah but X, Y and Z" when someone refutes their opinion with another stat (or even the same one). I think it would be best if we all just stop doing it. To me, it's intellectually dishonest to only select stats that back up your argument and dismiss/dimish ones rhat don't. Doing so is blatant cognitive dissonance/confirmation bias

As I've said about the cards, they outputs rely on the weight of the inputs. I think that if you agree 100% with how they do that, then go ahead and rely on those. Personally, I refuse to outsource my thinking to anyone on any topic

As for the bolded, I agree. Which (along with the Kovacevic shit the other day) has been my entire point all along
Do you think stats have any value? How do you evaluate players?

If you had multiple different 'cards' from different people (i.e. Jfresh/micah/dom etc.) all saying the same thing in general (player x > player y), and the stats that you find relevant saying the same, would you conclude that player x is indeed > player y?
 
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Joe Hallenback

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Do you think stats have any value? How do you evaluate players?

If you had multiple different 'cards' from different people (i.e. Jfresh/micah/dom etc.) all saying the same thing in general (player x > player y), and the stats that you find relevant saying the same, would you conclude that player x is indeed > player y?

I think stats have value but the context that people use them in are done wrong. We were a great team last season right. But I keep seeing stats thrown up from players from teams that don't make the playoffs or even come close to it as some kind of guide on who is a better player or not. I mean you still have to play the game and win right?
 

Buffdog

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Do you think stats have any value? How do you evaluate players?

If you had multiple different 'cards' from different people (i.e. Jfresh/micah/dom etc.) all saying the same thing in general (player x > player y), and the stats that you find relevant saying the same, would you conclude that player x is indeed > player y?
I guess it depends on the context of the discussion of player x vs player y

Are we talking teammates and usage? Are talking relative trade value? Or just impact on the game?

The first thing I'd do is watch them play. A lot. Depending on the answer to the above question, I'd be looking at certain things specifically.

From that point, I've drawn some subjective conclusion but I would absolutely want to look at stats to see if what I thought I saw matched what was recorded. If so, great. If not, why? Time to dig deeper... go back and watch more with that new data in mind

There are things that go unmeasured by data that weigh into assessing a player. For example, Ehlers' unpredictability doesn't show up in those graphs. One might say "well who cares, because he still gets good outcomes". As a coach or linemate, I would

Then if we're talking trade value or roster decisions, you'd have to look at intangibles like attitude, work ethic, coachability, etc. These are things that we, as fans, are largely not privy to because se only see these guys on game day and get their filtered interviews. So whenever the Jets make a roster decision that is a headscratcher on the surface, inwonder about those.
 
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DRW204

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You don't have to concede anything, you can have your own opinion and you could be right. Honestly i don't care who our starting 6 defenseman are next season as long as they are the best 6 defenseman we have at the time even if that means a regular starting defenseman is in the press box .
It's not my opinion. I asked when in training camp Bowness said heinola won the spot, meaning he'd be in the lineup as a regular NHL dman or part of the top 6 regardless of injury ahead of him. AKA not just being a temp fill-in.

I don't follow every single soundbite or quotable from the team. On the day he got hurt nothing was decided, and never played a single game all year even weeks/months after his injury (allowing time to get up to speed, conditioning etc).

If he did say in TC (which was the qualifier that you and another poster said) Heinola won the spot then Id defer to that certainly. However haven't seen anything yet for something so allegedly widely reported.
 

WolfHouse

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I guess it depends on the context of the discussion of player x vs player y

Are we talking teammates and usage? Are talking relative trade value? Or just impact on the game?

The first thing I'd do is watch them play. A lot. Depending on the answer to the above question, I'd be looking at certain things specifically.

From that point, I've drawn some subjective conclusion but I would absolutely want to look at stats to see if what I thought I saw matched what was recorded. If so, great. If not, why? Time to dig deeper... go back and watch more with that new data in mind

There are things that go unmeasured by data that weigh into assessing a player. For example, Ehlers' unpredictability doesn't show up in those graphs. One might say "well who cares, because he still gets good outcomes". As a coach or linemate, I would

Then if we're talking trade value or roster decisions, you'd have to look at intangibles like attitude, work ethic, coachability, etc. These are things that we, as fans, are largely not privy to because se only see these guys on game day and get their filtered interviews. So whenever the Jets make a roster decision that is a headscratcher on the surface, inwonder about those.
I will maintain my position that you are so far down this rabbit hole that your posts make no sense... on one hand, you decry posters using advanced stats and then call me out for using a model when i said 'statistics' hahah... then use advanced statistics sometimes and then say well you need to watch these players... 'like I do'

Then you kind of bring in random points to further confuse whatever point you're kind of making...

It's been weeks since you've actually said anything tangible on this forum haha... devils advocate is about the lamest position there is... only slightly about @Jet reactionary victimization
 

Buffdog

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I will maintain my position that you are so far down this rabbit hole that your posts make no sense... on one hand, you decry posters using advanced stats and then call me out for using a model when i said 'statistics' hahah... then use advanced statistics sometimes and then say well you need to watch these players... 'like I do'

Then you kind of bring in random points to further confuse whatever point you're kind of making...

It's been weeks since you've actually said anything tangible on this forum haha... devils advocate is about the lamest position there is... only slightly about @Jet reactionary victimization
I'm curious as to whether or not other posters agree that my posts make no sense. If anyone wants to let chime in, feel free to reply to this and let me know if you agree with @WolfHouse

Maybe I AM losing it

On the other hand, you have multiple posters saying that you put words in their mouths and claim that they said things that they never did. Maybe it's you?
 

Eyeseeing

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I'm curious as to whether or not other posters agree that my posts make no sense. If anyone wants to let chime in, feel free to reply to this and let me know if you agree with @WolfHouse

Maybe I AM losing it

On the other hand, you have multiple posters saying that you put words in their mouths and claim that they said things that they never did. Maybe it's you?
They are all good posts.
A good free for all is good for traffic and for all kinds of discussion.
As long as nobody gets personal nobody’s opinion is better than anyone’s.
The point of this board is hockey and hopefully having fun.
When it comes to Stanley you can’t say nothing at tall :sarcasm:
 

WolfHouse

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I'm curious as to whether or not other posters agree that my posts make no sense. If anyone wants to let chime in, feel free to reply to this and let me know if you agree with @WolfHouse

Maybe I AM losing it

On the other hand, you have multiple posters saying that you put words in their mouths and claim that they said things that they never did. Maybe it's you?
You and @Jet? Hahaha sure. I haven't argued with anyone else aside from rolling my eyes at Voyageur claiming Stan is our new Chiarot. Jet jumped in and attacked me so he can fk off really.

You two are the only ones claiming JFresh is a random internet dude and that you two have some.deeper insight.

You guys are the only ones I see claiming that you somehow have deeper nuances than the statistics and models that are available to all of us.

And you're the only ones putting words in other people's mouths... like I haven't seen ONE poster on this forum ever say that advanced statistics are the be all end all or that ONE model is all we should listen to...

You're so far down this bullshit devils advocate 'I have deeper insight' path that it's honestly hard to understand your actual goal other than to disrupt actual conversation.

Glad you have deeper insight than all these 'random internet dudes' - maybe if we reset and you actually spell out what you're thinking instead of just obfuscating and disagreeing about stats... that would help because it's been a while.
 

Jets 31

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I'm curious as to whether or not other posters agree that my posts make no sense. If anyone wants to let chime in, feel free to reply to this and let me know if you agree with @WolfHouse

Maybe I AM losing it

On the other hand, you have multiple posters saying that you put words in their mouths and claim that they said things that they never did. Maybe it's you?
Your posts are all horrible......;) :laugh:
Just kidding they are good but this is the Dude talking. :laugh:
 

Buffdog

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You and @Jet? Hahaha sure. I haven't argued with anyone else aside from rolling my eyes at Voyageur claiming Stan is our new Chiarot. Jet jumped in and attacked me so he can fk off really.

You two are the only ones claiming JFresh is a random internet dude and that you two have some.deeper insight.

You guys are the only ones I see claiming that you somehow have deeper nuances than the statistics and models that are available to all of us.

And you're the only ones putting words in other people's mouths... like I haven't seen ONE poster on this forum ever say that advanced statistics are the be all end all or that ONE model is all we should listen to...

You're so far down this bullshit devils advocate 'I have deeper insight' path that it's honestly hard to understand your actual goal other than to disrupt actual conversation.

Glad you have deeper insight than all these 'random internet dudes' - maybe if we reset and you actually spell out what you're thinking instead of just obfuscating and disagreeing about stats... that would help because it's been a while.
Can you PLEASE quote just ONE post where I said that I have deeper insight than anyone?

Just one post. Bold my words where I said that. Just. One.

When you do that, I will admit you're right and I'm wrong and that all the things you're accusing of me are true
 

10Ducky10

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Not only a waste of cap space but a waste of a roster spot as well.
He's a good passer if he has time...that is about as big a compliment I can give him. Worse than Tyler Myers was in his own zone. If he is pressured, his passes are questionable to say the least.
 

Buffdog

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Your posts are all horrible......;) :laugh:
Just kidding they are good but this is the Dude talking. :laugh:

1000029996.gif
 

WolfHouse

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Can you PLEASE quote just ONE post where I said that I have deeper insight than anyone?

Just one post. Bold my words where I said that. Just. One.

When you do that, I will admit you're right and I'm wrong and that all the things you're accusing of me are true
The post I just quoted... why would you think I'd say that if it wasn't implicit in your post.

You've spent a lot of time undermining posters who use advanced stats... and then you throw some in to say you used them but it seems more for effect than substance

I've been clear for a while - I don't understand what your actual point is anymore... other than to troll and argue by presenting straw men... you lost all credibility with me when you did that ridiculous 'you said statistics not models' thing ' reminded me of being 15 and in a relationship argument

Present what you actually think about kova, chisholm and Stan in a clear post and back it up with statistics... if you just want to argue then sure why not
 

Buffdog

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The post I just quoted... why would you think I'd say that if it wasn't implicit in your post.

You've spent a lot of time undermining posters who use advanced stats... and then you throw some in to say you used them but it seems more for effect than substance

I've been clear for a while - I don't understand what your actual point is anymore... other than to troll and argue by presenting straw men... you lost all credibility with me when you did that ridiculous 'you said statistics not models' thing ' reminded me of being 15 and in a relationship argument

Present what you actually think about kova, chisholm and Stan in a clear post and back it up with statistics... if you just want to argue then sure why not
OK, we found the problem

I'm not responsible for what you think I'm implying. If I didn't say it explicitly, I didn't say it. Period. That, right there, is why I'm accusing you of putting words in my mouth

It also explains why you're so confused. You're arguing against what you *think* I'm saying, even though I've never said it. Like me being "anti-analytics". I've never ONCE said that I'm anti-analytics. Yet you read a post where I point out some limitations and flaws of stats and models and you think that I'm implicitly saying I'm against them, when I'm not at all

My position on those dmen is already explicitly stated. They're all interchangeable, bottom pairing/7-8 tweeners. Maybe Kovy and Chisholm are better than Stanley, but not by much... or at least not enough to be making the fuss that people do about it
 
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WolfHouse

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OK, we found the problem

I'm not responsible for what you think I'm implying. If I didn't say it explicitly, I didn't say it. Period. That, right there, is why I'm accusing you of putting words in my mouth

It also explains why you're so confused. You're arguing against what you *think* I'm saying, even though I've never said it. Like me being "anti-analytics". I've never ONCE said that I'm anti-analytics. Yet you read a post where I point out some limitations and flaws of stats and models and you think that I'm implicitly saying I'm against them, when I'm not at all

My position on those dmen is already explicitly stated. They're all interchangeable, bottom pairing/7-8 tweeners. Maybe Kovy and Chisholm are better than Stanley, but not by much... or at least not enough to be making the fuss that people do about it
No I think you take statements and then interpret them to the extreme to make yourself seem reasonable haha - like you just did and like you did when you stated I was arguing with tons of posters and not just two.

You have twisted advanced stats and ignored models to .are the claim that Stan is kind of a 'wash' with chisholm and kova... whereas the track record, basic stats and models indicate differently... then you doubled down on criticizing models and posters who have a different idea.

For sure I'm mingling your posts with @Jet but I'm not going back and reviewing... I've stated my case that losing kova who is a rhd and all indications are that he would have elevated his game with samberg was a mistake - then losing chisholm was also a mistake because he's turned out to be a decent pp quarterback albeit with flaws

The holistic view of all these players does not support Stan in anyway serving a need that the Jets have... but we have thrown away good players because he's a first round pick

Same way we are about to throw away ehlers because scheif doesn't like him and then we will all shit on him as soon as he's not a Jet... it already started actually

The two cases are intriguing.... we handcuff samberg to accommodate Stan- but we demote ehlers at an instant to accommodate linemate preferences despite data to the contrary in both cases.
 

DEANYOUNGBLOOD17

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Every 7/8 defender on every team sucks. There are 100 guys in the league in that tier that are interchangeable, including Stanley, Chisholm, Kovacevic, Fleury and Coghlan

I’m not the stats guy you guys pretend to be!

But basic math says there are 64 guys in the league (32 teams x 2) that are 7/ 8 D- players that suck. Unless you are accounting for 36 injured players defensive 7/8 players that also suck!
 

voyageur

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I’m not the stats guy you guys pretend to be!

But basic math says there are 64 guys in the league (32 teams x 2) that are 7/ 8 D- players that suck. Unless you are accounting for 36 injured players defensive 7/8 players that also suck!
I don't see how any guy with an HF account can really say a player sucks, because to me that's shallow criticism...most of us have never even had a sniff at pro hockey. Defensemen are tricky to judge you look at the ark of careers like Desharnais or Alexander Carrier, taking over 5 years to become pros...some guys get jobs just because they've established a rep with a coach, that another player never had the opportunity to...you have guys like Capo who are NHL d-men one year, AHL d-men the next...Capo's demotion was a promotion for Declan Chisholm, who was a #8, looks like he could be a f/t player next season. Sometimes it's just the right opportunity and seizing it, like Ben Chiarot stepping up during injury to play a big minute role with Buff...I'd say there are 300+ d-men who could play in the NHL in any given season, just depends on circumstances when you get into that 6-9 range.
 

WolfHouse

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I don't see how any guy with an HF account can really say a player sucks, because to me that's shallow criticism...most of us have never even had a sniff at pro hockey. Defensemen are tricky to judge you look at the ark of careers like Desharnais or Alexander Carrier, taking over 5 years to become pros...some guys get jobs just because they've established a rep with a coach, that another player never had the opportunity to...you have guys like Capo who are NHL d-men one year, AHL d-men the next...Capo's demotion was a promotion for Declan Chisholm, who was a #8, looks like he could be a f/t player next season. Sometimes it's just the right opportunity and seizing it, like Ben Chiarot stepping up during injury to play a big minute role with Buff...I'd say there are 300+ d-men who could play in the NHL in any given season, just depends on circumstances when you get into that 6-9 range.
Stan is not Ben Chiarot
 

voyageur

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Stan is not Ben Chiarot
You are entitled to your opinion. I think Stan was drafted to replace Chiarot...Chiarot made the Jets after his ELC expired. Had some success with Buff, looked awful paired with Mark Stuart. Fans here generally didn't like him and couldn't wait to replace him with Niku. The thing is Stan was a slow developer, he got one preseason paired with Buff, and I'd love to hear our media types ask him about that...He definitely wasn't better than Dillon or Samberg, so he sat. Now it's a question of whether Heinola is Niku 2.0 or is Stan a capable d-man. I love the physicality the big guy brings, skating is definitely not his strength though...but it's always nice to watch players win battles one on one on the PK with their size, that was a strength of Chiarot.
 
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WolfHouse

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You are entitled to your opinion. I think Stan was drafted to replace Chiarot...Chiarot made the Jets after his ELC expired. Had some success with Buff, looked awful paired with Mark Stuart. Fans here generally didn't like him and couldn't wait to replace him with Niku. The thing is Stan was a slow developer, he got one preseason paired with Buff, and I'd love to hear our media types ask him about that...He definitely wasn't better than Dillon or Samberg, so he sat. Now it's a question of whether Heinola is Niku 2.0 or is Stan a capable d-man. I love the physicality the big guy brings, skating is definitely not his strength though...but it's always nice to watch players win battles one on one on the PK with their size, that was a strength of Chiarot.
I agree with your interpretation of that draft... but I would say that Stan got more chances early than samberg until the team was basically forced by sambergs play to promote him

I'm not seeing Stan win the one on one battles personally... but we will find out I suspect
 

Weezeric

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I agree with your interpretation of that draft... but I would say that Stan got more chances early than samberg until the team was basically forced by sambergs play to promote him

I'm not seeing Stan win the one on one battles personally... but we will find out I suspect

How did Stan get more opportunity? They both got their real chance in their D+6 season. Stanley wasn’t great and has played 44 games in the two seasons since. Samberg played well and was rewarded with 78 games last year and will probably be in the top 4 this year. That looks like good development to me.
 
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Jet

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I don't see how any guy with an HF account can really say a player sucks, because to me that's shallow criticism...most of us have never even had a sniff at pro hockey. Defensemen are tricky to judge you look at the ark of careers like Desharnais or Alexander Carrier, taking over 5 years to become pros...some guys get jobs just because they've established a rep with a coach, that another player never had the opportunity to...you have guys like Capo who are NHL d-men one year, AHL d-men the next...Capo's demotion was a promotion for Declan Chisholm, who was a #8, looks like he could be a f/t player next season. Sometimes it's just the right opportunity and seizing it, like Ben Chiarot stepping up during injury to play a big minute role with Buff...I'd say there are 300+ d-men who could play in the NHL in any given season, just depends on circumstances when you get into that 6-9 range.
It is really interesting.

We ponificate about why player A seemingly gets 1000 chances while player B gets none. We don't have enough real info to fully understand it, so the easy fallback is to say a bunch of professionals working in the best league in the world are incompetent, dinosaurs, etc.

Obviously there are biases in hockey. You see them in amateur hockey and no doubt these pros carry them into higher leagues.

However, widely held bias usually has some basis in fact, and as you move up the ladder in coaching and management a lot of the guys get weeded out. It still exists, but decisions with regards to player management, development and deployment aren't made by one person.

There are dozens of pros that weigh in on these players, and then when you see a player have the same experience with multiple orgs, you're taking about hundreds of decision makers.

It just illustrates how much of the picture fans are missing. We aren't privy to a lot of information leading into these decisions.

Of course, some of this information is beyond the players control: depth, contract, intangibles.

With Stanley in particular, I do think that bigger defensemen take longer to develop - we see examples of this all over. I know the size argument annoys a lot of peeps, here, but particularly with defenseman, size is a very valuable attribute. If you can find a way to develop a big d into a solid defender that is a prized component of a winning team.

Maybe the org is seeing enough forward prices with Stanley that that aren't ready to give up just yet.

*DISCLAIMER FOR WOLFHOUSE*

I am not a 'Stan fan'. I am not saying he will continue to improve into a top 4 defenseman. I'm not advocating for size over skill. I'm simply trying to reason why a bunch of pros in the Jets org. are holding onto Stanley.
 

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