Rumor: Lindholm Mega Thread: All Rumors/Proposals Go Here

[Donuts]

Sbisa

 

[Ciao]

It's either OEL, Faulk or GTFO. We don't want a bunch scraps for Lindholm

From the sound of it, I think that GTFO is your main objective.

Beats me why anyone would overpay to sign the guy the Ducks can't sign.

I think the Ducks will be playing with themselves for a while on this until something comes along.

 

[JetsHomer]

Well, are there any stats that support the argument that Rielly is great in his own zone?

Because Lindholm tends to be off the charts for those.

I don't understand how Ducks fans can use advanced stats to hype Lindholm while at the same time bash advanced stats in regards to Fowler. Talk about holding two contradictory opinions in your head at once

 

[Sojourn]

Is SoCal the centre of your universe?

Up here we think Reilly is every bit as good.

Also, Reily is signed to a good contract, had a good training camp, and is playing. Plus, plus, plus.

And is Toronto the center of your Universe?

We could put it to the test. Even weight it in your favor. Poll: "Including this season, who between Lindholm and Rielly is better defensively?"

Who do you think wins?

 

[LondonKendrick]

As numerous people have said before: Give him a competent defense and he's just fine.
You can use his recent years in Anaheim as a reference for that.



"hasn't outproduced Rielly"...

You're kidding, right?

I don't think his point was that their production was, or was not, the same.

If I had to guess, his point has to do with you trying to value two defensemen based on simple point production. Especially when Lindholm is pretty universally seen as being the far superior player in his own end. That would be like suggesting Brent Seabrook was equivalent to Drew Doughty last season, because he had similar point totals. Or that Roman Josi was better, because he out produced him.

Literally responded to what was said... but change the goal posts..

To address your point (which wasn't his btw, I can see how you 'build consensus' though, then use that consensus as another flawed point) given Rielly matched that production on a basement dweller, I like his upside compare to Hampus, I like his puck moving and speed more than Lindholm all this considered, the case for Lindy be ahead of Rielly isn't that strong, all this considered.

Ummmm, Brent plays for a contender as a 2, Drew plays for a contender as a 1, whereas Morgan and Hampus being the same draft, age, production relative position (I get they both move around a bit in their top four) are pretty equal to compare all things considered except that the help they get.

A good case can be made that Josi is better.

Yeah do you remember when you people were lecturing us on how good Andersen was? Do you remember that too, how he's so better than Bernier and Reimer? I guess if you find his jersey cute enough that makes him better huh, oh and let's pretend that consensus on HFboard is to bash anything in a Leafs jersey

Bias = consensus

Now accuse me of the same bias and ignore that I'm bashing Andersive

 

[Ciao]

Well, are there any stats that support the argument that Rielly is great in his own zone?

Because Lindholm tends to be off the charts for those.

I don't read stats.

I just watch hockey.

Whatever your statistic says means nothing if its' effect is not apparent from watching the game.

 

[LondonKendrick]

And is Toronto the center of your Universe?

We could put it to the test. Even weight it in your favor. Poll: "Including this season, who between Lindholm and Rielly is better defensively?"

Who do you think wins?

The team with the overall better defense, because those stats are largely if not completely a product of a team game?

Why not compare Rielly's advanced stats to Hampus on international teams where they both play on relatively equally talented lineups?

 

[Ciao]

I don't understand how Ducks fans can use advanced stats to hype Lindholm while at the same time bash advanced stats in regards to Fowler. Talk about holding two contradictory opinions in your head at once

They use stats like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination

 

[Sojourn]

Literally responded to what was said... but change the goal posts..

To address your point (which wasn't his btw, I can see how you 'build consensus' though, then use that consensus as another flawed point) given Rielly matched that production on a basement dweller, I like his upside compare to Hampus, I like his puck moving and speed more than Lindholm all this considered, the case for Lindy be ahead of Rielly isn't that strong, all this considered.

Ummmm, Brent plays for a contender as a 2, Drew plays for a contender as a 1, whereas Morgan and Hampus being the same draft, age, production relative position (I get they both move around a bit in their top four) are pretty equal to compare all things considered except that the help they get.

A good case can be made that Josi is better.

Yeah do you remember when you people were lecturing us on how good Andersen was? Do you remember that too, how he's so better than Bernier and Reimer? I guess if you find his jersey cute enough that makes him better huh, oh and let's pretend that consensus on HFboard is to bash anything in a Leafs jersey

Bias = consensus

You responded to his question that was only asked because you brought up offensive numbers. That isn't moving the goal posts.

Oh, I see, so now you're trying to add context. First it was simply that Rielly has been as productive as Lindholm(which you seemed to imply means Rielly is just as valuable), but now you actually want to dig deeper than simple production. Kind of proving my point there.

I don't recall lecturing anyone on how good Andersen was. I've only ever said he's a solid starter. Can you show me these lectures? Andersen has had 125 games in an Anaheim sweater proving he's a solid starter. And that's just regular season games. You think 4 games in Toronto proves he isn't? As for Bernier, I've also felt he might have better results in Anaheim. Do you really think goaltending is just the goaltender? It's the team in front of him too. If goaltenders continue to struggle in Toronto, yet they manage to play just fine elsewhere, the conclusion to draw is not that people are misleading you on the goaltenders. It's that the teams in front of them are different, and maybe, just maybe, Toronto is letting them down.

That doesn't mean they might not be letting Toronto down too. But to suggest we were full of crap that Andersen was a solid starter, because of 4 games in Toronto, is both arrogant and asinine.

 

[clunk]

I don't read stats.

I just watch hockey.

Whatever your statistic says means nothing if its' effect is not apparent from watching the game.

I watch hockey too and I can safely say that Hampus is better than Rielly defensively... I can also say that I think Rielly will be a perennial Norris contender just like Hampus will be..

 

[The Noot]

I don't understand how Ducks fans can use advanced stats to hype Lindholm while at the same time bash advanced stats in regards to Fowler. Talk about holding two contradictory opinions in your head at once

Because we Ducks fans are one big hivemind who are thinking the exact same way all the time.

I tend to be fairly critical of Fowler when it comes to his ability to retrieve the puck in his own zone. He's phenomenal at getting the puck out of there tho.

And as always: Watching a player play plus using fancy stats will always be better than only watching a player play and only using fancy stats.

Fowler is a curious case in terms of advanced stats. Obviously a very talented player, but he needs somebody to retrieve the puck for him to truly shine at his position.

Similar to the Weber-Josi dynamic we've seen over the last few years.

But that's not the point of this thread.

 

[Ciao]

And is Toronto the center of your Universe?

We could put it to the test. Even weight it in your favor. Poll: "Including this season, who between Lindholm and Rielly is better defensively?"

Who do you think wins?

Yes, when it comes to hockey Toronto is the centre of my universe.

I appreciate that it's not the center of yours. That's fine with me.

Universal doesn't strike a chord here when it's the Ducks universe. We move in dfferent circles.

We like our guy, and you like yours. Good enough. Works for me.

 

[Sojourn]

The team with the overall better defense, because those stats are largely if not completely a product of a team game?

Why not compare Rielly's advanced stats to Hampus on international teams where they both play on relatively equally talented lineups?

Well, for starters, the sample size is ridiculously small. You really think a dozen games should carry more weight than 200? That's pretty convenient, and not at all transparent.

 

[Boud]

I don't read stats.

I just watch hockey.

Whatever your statistic says means nothing if its' effect is not apparent from watching the game.

Statistics are used to neutralize the effects of bias whenever watching players. Naturally, some players play styles thay are just not the same and different people tend to like this player more than the other for reasons that are unrelated to their on ice performance or their efficiency in providing their respective teams some help in getting wins. Advanced statistics are used to find value in players and are used by every single NHL teams today.

So you're telling me that you've got it all figured out while 30 NHL franchises and countless professionals in the sport are losing their time compiling those statistics? Yea, that's the opposite of logic.

Statistics are based on the past, therefore they are a representation of past events that HAVE HAPPENED in a game situation which means that they are not only apparent, they are reality.

That being said, you can decide to be logical or ignorant, and in your case you decide to be ignorant. Ignorant of facts. Facts based on on-ice play of Rielly and Lindholm. Besides, you can't see every minute of every game of every player, tjat's impossible which makes your point absolutely worthless. You're missing so much information to make your assesment that it's just not worthy.

 

[Sojourn]

Yes, when it comes to hockey Toronto is the centre of my universe.

I apprecite that it not the center of yours. That's fine with me.

Universal doesn't strike a chord here when it's the Ducks universe. We move in dfferent circles.

We like our guy, and you like yours. Good enough. Works for me.

So, in your universe Rielly is as good, or better defensively, and nothing else matters. I think that's called being willfully ignorant.

Sometimes a player is just better defensively, and people acknowledge it.

Edit: how would this be any different than me trying to claim Lindholm is a better skater than Rielly? I don't think he is, by the way, and I would never say that, but it's an easy claim to make. It's my universe. I'll say what I want. If I don't watch Rielly, can I pretend he doesn't exist? Out of sight, out of mind, right? So, there we have it. Lindholm is a better skater. I can say that, because Anaheim is the center of my universe, and none of the players on other teams matter.

 

[clunk]

The team with the overall better defense, because those stats are largely if not completely a product of a team game?

Why not compare Rielly's advanced stats to Hampus on international teams where they both play on relatively equally talented lineups?

Let's be honest... Rielly got to play with Tanev internationally last time, and that will inflate any d-man's advanced stats. Though yes, Rielly is a stud in his own right and a big reason for their effectiveness, but you can't ignore this.

 

[M2Beezy]

Hutton and Virtanen for Lindholm and a 5th

 

[David71]

Hutton and Virtanen for Lindholm and a 5th

that be a good deal.. but wouldnt add virtanen though. value is low. it will suck to get rid of hutton.

 

[bernmeister]

Here we go again


IDK, Brady Skjei and JT Miller for Lindholm?

I would offer Rielly for Lindholm. Rielly only makes 5 mil.

I know it's broccoli and not something sweet, but

Stepan at half = 3.25

I would add one or more substantive picks
incl jets 2018 2nd

stepan is not a winger, but is productive and a serious bargain at half
line up is more versatile

 

[Willy Stylez]

I love how a Ducks fan assumes that Rielly + is available, Lindholm doesn't even have a contract, Rielly also identical career stats and is in the midst of breaking out (given his World Champion and World Cup performances).

The knock is possession number however Rielly has play on a basement dweller. Andersen is already getting exposed in Toronto, don't see how Hampus gets better in Toronto.

Rielly also has had less PP time and didn't get top PP time behind Phaneuf his whole career.

And you think a + is an option? You're not even Rielly for Hampus alone.

Lindholm is much better, would be a perfect fit for that backend. Rielly is good to, but not on Lindholms level right now...

I would trade Rielly+ for Lindholm without thinking to much about it because i doubt Ducks are intrested in one of JVR / Gards or for them as a package for Lindholm.

The +? Ex: Lindberg.

 

[Willy Stylez]

Lindholm is a great player, really one of the best D, and you know, Anaheim is going to get him signed to a great contract, one of the best. But, if they don't, they will do a great deal, because Murray knows how to do great deals, and it's going to be one of the best deals you've ever seen, and they are going to get the best return.

Trump mode on?

 

[dracom]

From the sound of it, I think that GTFO is your main objective.

Beats me why anyone would overpay to sign the guy the Ducks can't sign.

I think the Ducks will be playing with themselves for a while on this until something comes along.

Yes, sounds like you're understanding my point. No team in their right mind would be willing to give up what we should (and from the sounds of it, might be in the ballpark of what we're asking for in return) be asking for if we're trading Lindholm.

I also don't get how Jets fans think they can get an equal player when their own player asked for a trade.

The difference here is Jets fans are trying to make a trade, Ducks fans don't want to make a trade because our player hasn't asked for a trade out. So we have no reason to give him up unless it's for an incredible over payment. We're also not creating trade proposals for Lindholm. People think they can get Lindholm for a worse player and spare parts because it "saves" us money and that would make up the difference in value.

 

[LondonKendrick]

You responded to his question that was only asked because you brought up offensive numbers. That isn't moving the goal posts.

Oh, I see, so now you're trying to add context. First it was simply that Rielly has been as productive as Lindholm(which you seemed to imply means Rielly is just as valuable), but now you actually want to dig deeper than simple production. Kind of proving my point there.

I don't recall lecturing anyone on how good Andersen was. I've only ever said he's a solid starter. Can you show me these lectures? Andersen has had 125 games in an Anaheim sweater proving he's a solid starter. And that's just regular season games. You think 4 games in Toronto proves he isn't? As for Bernier, I've also felt he might have better results in Anaheim. Do you really think goaltending is just the goaltender? It's the team in front of him too. If goaltenders continue to struggle in Toronto, yet they manage to play just fine elsewhere, the conclusion to draw is not that people are misleading you on the goaltenders. It's that the teams in front of them are different, and maybe, just maybe, Toronto is letting them down.

That doesn't mean they might not be letting Toronto down too. But to suggest we were full of crap that Andersen was a solid starter, because of 4 games in Toronto, is both arrogant and asinine.

I love how I respond to someone's point and destroy it(someone else saying Lindholm > production than Rielly). Then you take that as a response to your point despite it addressed someone else???? Goal posts changed...

You think Andersen is a starting goaltender? Speaks volumes of how you can't address the point that players have their defensive and goaltending stats propped by an overall team game. Offensive production sure to a lesser extend but then you crown Lindholm for a function of teams stats.

And the Andersen lectures is a larger point of the overall audience (dude, really, you're going to act obtuse about this, I'm willing bet you were calling for a 1st+ in proposals last year, Lou is a sucker on that bait though).

All Andersen proved is that he's a typical meh tender whose individual stats had the luxury of the crutch of a great team, Lindholm has the same crutch, Rielly hasn't, so yeah, I like Rielly. Rielly's dominance on the international stage is a comparison that is fair given equal rosters compared to competition. You ducked a fair sample size and point to another larger one sure but Rielly's numbers hold up fine given the context of the team.

Andersen overplays every shot and is routinely out of position, relies on his size and can't make a skill save to save his life. Hated this trade since day one and I don't think anyone really has high hopes given how ugly he's been.

Just Toronto, lol, good teams vs bad teams.... one of these things is not like the other...

When you address the arguments in the proper context, I can take your point seriously, so far all I've read is 'well HFboards consensus means our guy if better than yours'. Funny how Hf consensus routinely favors the non Leaf, go figure.

Well, for starters, the sample size is ridiculously small. You really think a dozen games should carry more weight than 200? That's pretty convenient, and not at all transparent.

Ignore a fair comparison and ignore that the larger sample size in proper context is a marginal difference at best. Again, the point the Jets fan made is call advanced stats into question (it's cool for Lindy but not Fowler), which I would disagree with a bit and say there kinda bs because they're really reflective of team stats not individuals. Sorry to repeat myself, but supporting the argument you won't address.

 

[The Noot]

I love how I respond to someone's point and destroy it(someone else saying Lindholm > production than Rielly).

Are you talking about me here?

You might want to re-read my post, then.

 

[Thomas Tatar]

That's even worse, to be honest. Kesler hasn't really been regressing, yet, and is an instrumental player to the team's current chances; he has a decent claim for the team's MVP title last year. He'll regress soon enough, which will make him a bad fit for a team like the Oilers that will have some big 2nd contracts to sign over the course of Kesler's deal, but his value to the Ducks is very, very real. (Ignoring that he'd never waive his NMC for that type of trade.) Nurse just isn't very interesting to a team with Anaheim's depth with young high potential defensemen.

Fair enough. I agree that Kesler wouldn't waive, so it is moot. I honestly don't watch enough of the ducks to see how important Kesler has been to them. I was only looking at the financials long term.