Proposal: Lindholm and Rakell trade discussion thread for Anaheim.

[aj8000]

So you're comparing a trade from 20 years ago to now? Jeez..

That last sentence just shows you're salty about the Ducks having Teemu and now you're hoping the Jets will take Lindholm from us. That trade happened 20 years ago, Teemu is retired, get over it.

Funny. the only reason I bring that up is the issue is the same. One team needs to sign two players and an internal cap does not allow it to happen so a trade is made because of money. If you want to ignore the money issues the ducks are having the and eventual effect on your roster sure, but the chances of the ducks losing one of the two is quite high.

As for being salty about the Ducks having Teemu, well back then I was a Calgary Flames fan and did not care (and still do not care) that Teemu was traded. I guess I only cheer for teams that used to be in Atlanta.

 

[Magic Man]

Wholeheartedly disagreed. Significantly higher ceiling and better development curve since being drafted.

At the time each of them were drafted, Kapanen was the more highly regarded prospect. I think both have improved their stock since the draft with their play. I can't think of a reason outside of Ducks bias as to why Larsson's value would have rocketed that far past Kapanen based on what they've done post draft.

So if the Ducks had three top 10 prospects, then their 4-6 ranked prospects would immediately be rated higher. Interesting logic.

The prospects in question were being put down because of their position in the Leafs pool. But, the top of the Leafs pool isn't like most team's. They're not top-10 prospects like those ahead of them in the Leaf's pool, but they're strong prospects.

 

[Vipers31]

At the time each of them were drafted, Kapanen was the more highly regarded prospect. I think both have improved their stock since the draft with their play. I can't think of a reason outside of Ducks bias as to why Larsson's value would have rocketed that far past Kapanen based on what they've done post draft.

I can't think of a reason outside of Leafs bias to not see it. Larsson has impressed more in his draft+1 year than Kapanen has in his draft+2 year. His skillset and hockey-IQ make for a top pairing ceiling, whereas Kapanen's lend themselves more to a middle-6 projection.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

At the time each of them were drafted, Kapanen was the more highly regarded prospect. I think both have improved their stock since the draft with their play. I can't think of a reason outside of Ducks bias as to why Larsson's value would have rocketed that far past Kapanen based on what they've done post draft.



The prospects in question were being put down because of their position in the Leafs pool. But, the top of the Leafs pool isn't like most team's. They're not top-10 prospects like those ahead of them in the Leaf's pool, but they're strong prospects.

yep no bias from you trying to turn your b prospects into a franchise dman, and thinking you can make a credible argument

 

[Magic Man]

I can't think of a reason outside of Leafs bias to not see it. Larsson has impressed more in his draft+1 year than Kapanen has in his draft+2 year. His skillset and hockey-IQ make for a top pairing ceiling, whereas Kapanen's lend themselves more to a middle-6 projection.

I think they both have top line upside. But, it is unlikely for either of them. They both probably settle into the middle of the lineup.

 

[Exit Dose]

I think they both have top line upside. But, it is unlikely for either of them. They both probably settle into the middle of the lineup.

Based on?

 

[Magic Man]

Based on?

He wasn't drafted amongst the top of his peers at the draft, he wouldn't be amongst the top-10 d-prospects in the league. There are only 60 top pairing dmen, some of which his skillset has no chance of overtaking. The Ducks have several under 25 D that they value higher.

The odds are stacked against him. He could overachieve. But, he probably settles into a #3-6 role.

 

[Vipers31]

He wasn't drafted amongst the top of his peers at the draft, he wouldn't be amongst the top-10 d-prospects in the league. (...)

The odds are stacked against him. He could overachieve. But, he probably settles into a #3-6 role.

Button has him as a top-5 defensive prospect, for example (or at least pretty recently had; that was not including the recent draftees, so he could drop a bit in his ranking, as well). And plenty of the guys that are elite today were drafted outside the first round even - people are too quick to dismiss top pairing upside based on draft position. Defensemen projections are more volatile than forwards.

There are only 60 top pairing dmen, some of which his skillset has no chance of overtaking.

Strong skating, high end IQ two way defender with a slight emphasis on offense - what exactly stops that from overtaking enough d-men?

The Ducks have several under 25 D that they value higher.

How do you know how the Ducks value these guys? What order do they have them in?

 

[Magic Man]

Button has him as a top-5 defensive prospect, for example (or at least pretty recently had; that was not including the recent draftees, so he could drop a bit in his ranking, as well). And plenty of the guys that are elite today were drafted outside the first round even - people are too quick to dismiss top pairing upside based on draft position. Defensemen projections are more volatile than forwards.


Strong skating, high end IQ two way defender with a slight emphasis on offense - what exactly stops that from overtaking enough d-men?


How do you know how the Ducks value these guys? What order do they have them in?

Draft rankings aren't a perfect picture for the future. But, they are a look at exactly where he was valued league wide last season. He really hasn't done anything exceedingly special to proclaim him likely for the top pairing a year later. He's a good prospect who has a chance. But, it's definitely not likely to happen.

Lindholm, Theo, Fowler, Vatanen, Montour, Manson, Despres are all 25 and under. At Larsson's projected peak vs the others where would you put him in that group?

 

[KaseMeOutside]

He wasn't drafted amongst the top of his peers at the draft, he wouldn't be amongst the top-10 d-prospects in the league. There are only 60 top pairing dmen, some of which his skillset has no chance of overtaking. The Ducks have several under 25 D that they value higher.

The odds are stacked against him. He could overachieve. But, he probably settles into a #3-6 role.

connor brown was a 6th round pick he wasn't drafted amongst the top of his peers, yet here you are trying to present him as a high end prospect

 

[Magic Man]

connor brown was a 6th round pick he wasn't drafted amongst the top of his peers, yet here you are trying to present him as a high end prospect

I'm not trying to pass off Connor Brown as a likely future top line winger. He's like Larsson and Kapanen, he has a chance, but he is more likely to settle into the middle of the lineup.

 

[Vipers31]

Draft rankings aren't a perfect picture for the future. But, they are a look at exactly where he was valued league wide last season. He really hasn't done anything exceedingly special to proclaim him likely for the top pairing a year later. He's a good prospect who has a chance. But, it's definitely not likely to happen.

His draft+1 season, where he featured in a top-4 role on a top team in one of the strongest leagues in the world is definitely far more special than what most kids drafted in the 1st round do.

Lindholm, Theo, Fowler, Vatanen, Montour, Manson, Despres are all 25 and under. At Larsson's projected peak vs the others where would you put him in that group?

I would probably put his ceiling behind Lindholm, slightly behind Theodore and next to Fowler, but above the rest.

I'm not trying to pass off Connor Brown as a likely future top line winger. He's like Larsson and Kapanen, he has a chance, but he is more likely to settle into the middle of the lineup.

But you do see how what he did post draft had an impact on how you perceive his chance. He went from being a late rounder to "like Larsson and Kapanen", while Larsson couldn't do anything to be more than what he was drafted at?

 

[Magic Man]

His draft+1 season, where he featured in a top-4 role on a top team in one of the strongest leagues in the world is definitely far more special than what most kids drafted in the 1st round do.


I would probably put his ceiling behind Lindholm, slightly behind Theodore and next to Fowler, but above the rest.

Kapanen produced like a top-6 forward in his draft+1 in the FEL and AHL. Then did so again in his draft+2 in the AHL. Larsson's draft+1 isn't any more impressive and like I said at the time of their respective drafts Kapanen was the more highly valued prospect.

He's behind Lindholm/Theo/Fowler for sure. Probably behind Vatanen as well.

Brown is in his 5th year post draft, he dragged himself to their level, by dominating as he jumped levels for years. Larsson played one year since his post draft and didn't do so at a level that puts him with the elite.

 

[Vipers31]

Kapanen produced like a top-6 forward in his draft+1 in the FEL and AHL. Then did so again in his draft+2 in the AHL. Larsson's draft+1 isn't any more impressive and like I said at the time of their respective drafts Kapanen was the more highly valued prospect.

But it is more impressive - tougher position in a better league, with better results; and then you have little progression with Kapanen between +1/+2 seasons. And no, Kapanen being being drafted four spots higher isn't proving him to be more highly valued at the time of the draft.

Brown is in his 5th year post draft, he dragged himself to their level, by dominating as he jumped levels for years. Larsson played one year since his post draft and didn't do so at a level that puts him with the elite.

This isn't a two-dimensional debate where there's only "elite" and "non-elite". It doesn't require Larsson to force himself into the elite for him to be recognized as more than he was before - that's just a lazy line of arguing. And most of the "domination" Brown has done immedaitely post draft came in juniors - can't use it against Larsson that he's proving he can play efficiently against men rather than being limited to playing against kids the way Brown had to.

 

[lindholmie]

Draft rankings aren't a perfect picture for the future. But, they are a look at exactly where he was valued league wide last season. He really hasn't done anything exceedingly special to proclaim him likely for the top pairing a year later. He's a good prospect who has a chance. But, it's definitely not likely to happen.

Lindholm, Theo, Fowler, Vatanen, Montour, Manson, Despres are all 25 and under. At Larsson's projected peak vs the others where would you put him in that group?

playing top 4 mins on the SHL championship team as an 18 year old isn't impressive? What does the ducks being stacked with dmen have to do with larssons potential? Manson would be second to last on that group but he was part of the best shutdown pair in the league.

lindholm
fowler
theodore
larsson
vatanen
montour
manson
depres


thats how i would rank them.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I'm not trying to pass off Connor Brown as a likely future top line winger. He's like Larsson and Kapanen, he has a chance, but he is more likely to settle into the middle of the lineup.

you are the one trying to present where a player was picked as apart of his value, since he was a 6th round pick and hasn't established himself as an NHL'er yet it can't be as high as 2 first rounders, again using your argument

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Kapanen produced like a top-6 forward in his draft+1 in the FEL and AHL. Then did so again in his draft+2 in the AHL. Larsson's draft+1 isn't any more impressive and like I said at the time of their respective drafts Kapanen was the more highly valued prospect.

He's behind Lindholm/Theo/Fowler for sure. Probably behind Vatanen as well.

Brown is in his 5th year post draft, he dragged himself to their level, by dominating as he jumped levels for years. Larsson played one year since his post draft and didn't do so at a level that puts him with the elite.

just quit while you're ahead you don't know much about Larsson, and that's ok just don't try to convince people you know alot about the player

 

[Magic Man]

But it is more impressive - tougher position in a better league, with better results; and then you have little progression with Kapanen between +1/+2 seasons. And no, Kapanen being being drafted four spots higher isn't proving him to be more highly valued at the time of the draft.


This isn't a two-dimensional debate where there's only "elite" and "non-elite". It doesn't require Larsson to force himself into the elite for him to be recognized as more than he was before - that's just a lazy line of arguing. And most of the "domination" Brown has done immedaitely post draft came in juniors - can't use it against Larsson that he's proving he can play efficiently against men rather than being limited to playing against kids the way Brown had to.

Kapanen was ranked significantly higher than Larsson on every draft ranking pre-draft and was drafted 5 spots higher.

I don't think his production to date has shown 'better results'. They have both produced as top-6/top-4 at their positions in pro leagues at ages where many are still playing junior. They are very much comparable assets.

 

[Sojourn]

Kapanen was ranked significantly higher than Larsson on every draft ranking pre-draft and was drafted 5 spots higher.

I don't think his production to date has shown 'better results'. They have both produced as top-6/top-4 at their positions in pro leagues at ages where many are still playing junior. They are very much comparable assets.

...why do you keep bringing up the draft rankings? They were drafted different years.

 

[jacks*]

Pacioretty + Andrighetto

vs

Fowler + Rakell

Then Anahein can sign Lindholm to that 6,5M$ per contract.

Habs hang up laughing.

 

[Magic Man]

...why do you keep bringing up the draft rankings? They were drafted different years.

One was consistently ranked in the 10-20 range of his draft and picked 22nd. The other was consistently ranked in the 30-40 range of his draft and picked 27th. They were drafted in back to back years and have similar levels of success. I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

[Sojourn]

One was consistently ranked in the 10-20 range of his draft and picked 22nd. The other was consistently ranked in the 30-40 range of his draft and picked 27th. They were drafted in back to back years and have similar levels of success. I thought it was worth mentioning.

Except you aren't just mentioning it. You're making it the foundation of your comparison between the two.

Not only that, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Larsson is a defenseman. All things being equal, defensemen typically get drafted after equivalent forwards, because of how difficult it can be to project them. That's before considering that draft rankings become far less significant once the players actually enter their draft year +1(or +2, +3, etc...). There's a reason why a projected re-draft a year or two after can very quickly look different than what the actual draft does.

Bottom line? You're giving far too much significance to draft rankings, especially given that we're talking about two different draft years. It actually suggests, as KEEROLE pointed out, that you know very little about Larsson.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Despres
Pettersson

For

Boston 2nd 2017

 

[wintersej]

Despres
Pettersson

For

Boston 2nd 2017

Too much risk with Despres. Boston doesn't own their 2nd. Bruins have been saving cap space for a bigger fish.

 

[Magic Man]

Except you aren't just mentioning it. You're making it the foundation of your comparison between the two.

Not only that, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Larsson is a defenseman. All things being equal, defensemen typically get drafted after equivalent forwards, because of how difficult it can be to project them. That's before considering that draft rankings become far less significant once the players actually enter their draft year +1(or +2, +3, etc...). There's a reason why a projected re-draft a year or two after can very quickly look different than what the actual draft does.

Bottom line? You're giving far too much significance to draft rankings, especially given that we're talking about two different draft years. It actually suggests, as KEEROLE pointed out, that you know very little about Larsson.

They were just drafted in the past two seasons. Their draft rankings and official ranking are relevant to the discussion. That's where they were seen within the last couple of years.

They both achieved top-6/top-4 production in pro leagues at comparable levels. Larsson's post+1 wasn't any more impressive than Kaps but even if you want to say it is, it's not by enough to do anything more than close the initial gap between the two.

They are very much comparable in terms of value, upside and likeliness to reach their upside, which is what I've been arguing from the start.