Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[Hardyvan123]

Not two places at once, but unbelievable ability to get back when needed...

Go to 4 minutes and 20 secs and watch the next 25 secs...

Did Orr do this every shift. No. But he did it plenty enough to be the only player with a +1.01 per game for his career...



Btw, I'd love to see some footage of another defenseman (or any player) going end -- to end -- AND to end once again to finish a goal down low in ONE thirty second sequence.

I'm sure guys do it all the time in practice, which is what the opposition defense looks like in most of this clip. watch the clip closely then watch a highlight clip from the past season and notice the subtle differences.

Okay so they aren't so subtle.

If anything going back and watching the older clips where a player dominates actually hurts their case rather than enhances it IMO.

 

[danincanada]

I'm sure guys do it all the time in practice, which is what the opposition defense looks like in most of this clip. watch the clip closely then watch a highlight clip from the past season and notice the subtle differences.

Okay so they aren't so subtle.

If anything going back and watching the older clips where a player dominates actually hurts their case rather than enhances it IMO.

For his era Orr was just amazing at rushing the puck but if you watch after the 4:00 mark of this video, after Orr helps the Bruins to a 5-2 lead, we can see he was not this invincible player some want to make him out to be. During the Canadiens comeback Orr is on the ice for all 6 goals. He gets his pocket picked on the 2nd goal, gets crossed up on a weak pass from a teammate on the 5th goal, and doesn't cover his man in front of the net on the 6th. Not typical stuff from #4 obviously but we see how a group of great players could expose him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hCn-UqcFs&feature=related

It's hard to believe Jean Beliveau was 40 at the time. What a smooth player.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Depth of Talent

For his era Orr was just amazing at rushing the puck but if you watch after the 4:00 mark of this video, after Orr helps the Bruins to a 5-2 lead, we can see he was not this invincible player some want to make him out to be. During the Canadiens comeback Orr is on the ice for all 6 goals. He gets his pocket picked on the 2nd goal, gets crossed up on a weak pass from a teammate on the 5th goal, and doesn't cover his man in front of the net on the 6th. Not typical stuff from #4 obviously but we see how a group of great players could expose him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hCn-UqcFs&feature=related

It's hard to believe Jean Beliveau was 40 at the time. What a smooth player.

Illustrating clearly the depth of talent on the 1971 Canadiens - 8 HHOFers, none contentious, combined will impact on a great player.

Conversely Lidstrom has never faced a team with such quality dept over the course of a series. Bobby Orr and the Bruins never beat the Canadiens in three playoff series yet Orr's performance steadily improved ,1968,1969,1971.

 

[danincanada]

Illustrating clearly the depth of talent on the 1971 Canadiens - 8 HHOFers, none contentious, combined will impact on a great player.

Conversely Lidstrom has never faced a team with such quality dept over the course of a series. Bobby Orr and the Bruins never beat the Canadiens in three playoff series yet Orr's performance steadily improved ,1968,1969,1971.

So you're going to let Orr off because he was up against a great team...not a surprise. That still doesn't excuse him from some of the sloppiness he displays in this game. If a top player or defenseman had a performance like this in a big playoff game now people would be talking about it for a long time.

Some of those Avalanche teams Lidstrom played against had lots of depth and HOFers too but I never saw a meltdown like this from him.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Competition

So you're going to let Orr off because he was up against a great team...not a surprise. That still doesn't excuse him from some of the sloppiness he displays in this game. If a top player or defenseman had a performance like this in a big playoff game now people would be talking about it for a long time.

Some of those Avalanche teams Lidstrom played against had lots of depth and HOFers too but I never saw a meltdown like this from him.

The C.j. Umberger goal where he beats Lidstrom has been posted many times. A low average player not a HHOFer pulls a classic Maurice Richard move on Lidstrom.

Orr does not get a pass, in fact I comment relative to his 1968 and 1969 playoffs against the Canadiens and the lack of success by Bobby Orr.

Great matching up against great or multiple greats is a true test. Even though one comes out ahead at any given moment there is an ebb and flow between the greats which only enhances the portfolio.

Lidstrom never played against one team with 8 HHOFers plus the depth to replace a 9th - Serge Savard injured. When he played the Avalanche you saw the same back and forth as you would have seen in the classic Canadiens match-ups against Detroit in the fifties.

 

[danincanada]

The C.j. Umberger goal where he beats Lidstrom has been posted many times. A low average player not a HHOFer pulls a classic Maurice Richard move on Lidstrom.

Orr does not get a pass, in fact I comment relative to his 1968 and 1969 playoffs against the Canadiens and the lack of success by Bobby Orr.

Great matching up against great or multiple greats is a true test. Even though one comes out ahead at any given moment there is an ebb and flow between the greats which only enhances the portfolio.

Lidstrom never played against one team with 8 HHOFers plus the depth to replace a 9th - Serge Savard injured. When he played the Avalanche you saw the same back and forth as you would have seen in the classic Canadiens match-ups against Detroit in the fifties.

Classic Maurice Richard move? That Umberger goal is not what you, and others, have always tried to make it out to be. That was a regular season game featuring the top team (Detroit) and league's worst team (Philly) in what most call the dog days of the season. I remember it well. The game was not an important playoff game like this Orr example. Lidstrom did give Umberger too much room to come back towards the net with the puck but it was the minor league goalie in net who should have covered the short side better. You guys have to find better footage of Lidstrom getting beat than that. They are hard to find.

 

[Epsilon]

The fact that Lidstrom-bashers have to keep going to the well for that Umberger clip just shows another bias against modern players that gets displayed on here: mundane regular season clips showing both highs and lows are plentiful on Youtube for current NHLers, whereas for older players the stuff you find on Youtube and related sites is almost exclusively "best-of" type highlight reel packs.

 

[Hanji]

For his era Orr was just amazing at rushing the puck but if you watch after the 4:00 mark of this video, after Orr helps the Bruins to a 5-2 lead, we can see he was not this invincible player some want to make him out to be. During the Canadiens comeback Orr is on the ice for all 6 goals. He gets his pocket picked on the 2nd goal, gets crossed up on a weak pass from a teammate on the 5th goal, and doesn't cover his man in front of the net on the 6th. Not typical stuff from #4 obviously but we see how a group of great players could expose him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hCn-UqcFs&feature=related

It's hard to believe Jean Beliveau was 40 at the time. What a smooth player.

Just live with the fact that many individuals over-glorify their heroes, i.e "Bobby Orr, superman on ice!".
And the footage available of Orr (almost exclusively highlight reels) only reinforces this misconception.

Was Orr the best ever? Probably. However, that doesn't mean he dominated every time he stepped on the ice; nobody does. There are times when even the best players are invisible and times they flat out suck.

 

[Stonefly]

Classic Maurice Richard move? That Umberger goal is not what you, and others, have always tried to make it out to be. That was a regular season game featuring the top team (Detroit) and league's worst team (Philly) in what most call the dog days of the season. I remember it well. The game was not an important playoff game like this Orr example. Lidstrom did give Umberger too much room to come back towards the net with the puck but it was the minor league goalie in net who should have covered the short side better. You guys have to find better footage of Lidstrom getting beat than that. They are hard to find.

Lots to be said here but I'll just say this, interesting that in your analysis Lidstrom gets to share the blame with a team mate yet Orr shoulders all of the blame. Sort of reeks of hypocrisy.

 

[danincanada]

Lots to be said here but I'll just say this, interesting that in your analysis Lidstrom gets to share the blame with a team mate yet Orr shoulders all of the blame. Sort of reeks of hypocrisy.

Where did I say Orr should get all the blame? I noted that he got "crossed up on a weak pass from a teammate" on one of those goals and I didn't blame him for the two goals by Beliveau. He was on the ice for 6 goals and there is good reason to blame him for 2 of them; the first one where he gets his pocket picked and the second last one where he doesn't take his man in front of the net.

 

[Stonefly]

Where did I say Orr should get all the blame? I noted that he got "crossed up on a weak pass from a teammate" on one of those goals and I didn't blame him for the two goals by Beliveau. He was on the ice for 6 goals and there is good reason to blame him for 2 of them; the first one where he gets his pocket picked and the second last one where he doesn't take his man in front of the net.

I guess "meltdown" means something different to you than I.

 

[OrrNumber4]

If Orr only dominated his peers because the competition was so weak (and, presumably, Orr was simply more advanced, and anomaly, not superbly talented), why isn't Lidstrom able to dominate his peers like a 35-year-old, fat, Mario Lemieux did?

 

[danincanada]

I guess "meltdown" means something different to you than I.

It did appear to be a meltdown because I don't know how else to explain such a dominant player looking so bad on a couple of plays there. That doesn't mean I blame Orr for every goal. If you don't like how I analyzed those plays then you're free to give your own input instead of always nitpicking my posts.

 

[danincanada]

If Orr only dominated his peers because the competition was so weak (and, presumably, Orr was simply more advanced, and anomaly, not superbly talented), why isn't Lidstrom able to dominate his peers like a 35-year-old, fat, Mario Lemieux did?

Orr was superbly talented. The point is that there are lots of superbly talented hockey players now so how do we know Orr would still be at the top of that list if he played today? No one really knows the answer to that which is why we bicker about it constantly.

Lidstrom just won the Norris at 41 so I don't understand the second part of your question. Personally, Mario Lemieux is the most offensively talented player I've ever seen. At the same time, a player like Mario could not get away with floating like he did if he was a defenseman. Lidstrom must defend and play his position or he is going to look very bad. Meanwhile, Mario could float and often only played half the ice so even though he put up ridiculous offensive numbers I don't see it as being the same type of domination as what he did earlier in his career when he was more of a force overall.

 

[Stonefly]

It did appear to be a meltdown because I don't know how else to explain such a dominant player looking so bad on a couple of plays there. That doesn't mean I blame Orr for every goal. If you don't like how I analyzed those plays then you're free to give your own input instead of always nitpicking my posts.

First one, the Richard goal? Handcuffed by a stupid pass from Sanderson. Same stupidity as a suicide pass.

Didn't necessarily play the Ferguson goal wrong either. Positional play.

Hardly a meltdown. Team meltdown? Sure.

And let's not forget the 4 points he put up before the team proceeded to implode.

 

[5lidyzer19]

why isn't Lidstrom able to dominate his peers like a 35-year-old, fat, Mario Lemieux did?

Since turning 35, Lidstrom has won 4 Norris Trophies and was selected to 4 first team allstar spots. He also was a key peice of a Stanley Cup and a Gold medal win.

I would call that domination, but of course, it's a subjective term.

 

[Rhiessan71]

For his era Orr was just amazing at rushing the puck but if you watch after the 4:00 mark of this video, after Orr helps the Bruins to a 5-2 lead, we can see he was not this invincible player some want to make him out to be. During the Canadiens comeback Orr is on the ice for all 6 goals. He gets his pocket picked on the 2nd goal, gets crossed up on a weak pass from a teammate on the 5th goal, and doesn't cover his man in front of the net on the 6th. Not typical stuff from #4 obviously but we see how a group of great players could expose him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hCn-UqcFs&feature=related

It's hard to believe Jean Beliveau was 40 at the time. What a smooth player.

Funny that you mention that Beliveau was 40...how old was Orr in that video...22, 23?
Now for the video and the goals against.
Habs goal #1 - Orr is NOT on the ice for.

Habs goal #2 - Orr gets a short pass almost in his feet at the blueline that is stolen by Richard immediately. It was a bad pass by Sanderson, all he had to do was lightly chip in on the boards and Orr was gone.

Habs goal #3 - Habs score on the PP, nuff said.

Habs goal #4 - Orr is tied up with his man and the puck along the boards, Beliveau comes in and digs the puck out from both of them while #16 for the B's waves weakly at Beliveau, then seems to go for a little skate heh.

Habs goal #5 - You said it already, Orr gets hung out to dry on this one by a horribly ill-conceived pass.

Habs goal #6 - Orr was in position but I have to agree, he played the puck and if he had of played the man harder, he prolly doesn't score. To be fair though, that's a tough play. Go too hard on the man away from the net and you open a lane to the backdoor in the slot. Anyone who's actually played defense knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention Orr's D partner turning the puck over to Beliveau there and then Beliveau out working 2 B's players at once to make the pass out front heh.

Habs goal #7 - Orr gets caught deep trying to tie it up but at the same time, he was covered and it was only a 2 on 2 the other way. Too bad Espo f'd his couch on the play heh.

At least if you're going to attempt to break down video, don't do it half ass.
Same goes for people picking on Lidstrom with the Umberger vid...no NHL goalie should of let that weak, bad angle shot in.

 

[danincanada]

First one, the Richard goal? Handcuffed by a stupid pass from Sanderson. Same stupidity as a suicide pass.

Didn't necessarily play the Ferguson goal wrong either. Positional play.

Hardly a meltdown. Team meltdown? Sure.

And let's not forget the 4 points he put up before the team proceeded to implode.

When Orr received the pass from Sanderson he tried to cut back with the puck and got his pocket picked by Richard. It wasn't the wisest pass to make but Orr made himself available for that pass and then coughed it up so Orr has to take most of the responsibilty for that one.

Positional play? Yeah, Orr was in position, the problem was he didn't do anything to stop Ferguson from scoring. Two of his teammates on Beliveau behind the net, Orr and Ferguson in front. Ferguson is Orr's man and he simply didn't cover him very well.

 

[Rhiessan71]

When Orr received the pass from Sanderson he tried to cut back with the puck and got his pocket picked by Richard. It wasn't the wisest pass to make but Orr made himself available for that pass and then coughed it up so Orr has to take most of the responsibilty for that one.

C'mon dude, Orr was still trying to contain the pass and Richard was all over it. Like I already said, Orr made himself available for an easy chip pass off the boards too. Much better play. Sanderson panicked period.

Positional play? Yeah, Orr was in position, the problem was he didn't do anything to stop Ferguson from scoring. Two of his teammates on Beliveau behind the net, Orr and Ferguson in front. Ferguson is Orr's man and he simply didn't cover him very well.

I don't know if you ever played the game but I highly doubt if you did, that it was not as a d-man heh.

 

[danincanada]

Habs goal #2 - Orr gets a short pass almost in his feet at the blueline that is stolen by Richard immediately. It was a bad pass by Sanderson, all he had to do was lightly chip in on the boards and Orr was gone.

The pass was on Orr's stick. He just flubbed it afterwards trying to cut back with the puck. Maybe it was a rolling puck, who knows, but Orr did have possession of the puck and got his pocket picked.

Habs goal #5 - You said it already, Orr gets hung out to dry on this one by a horribly ill-conceived pass.

Orr still got caught in no mans land though. He first waited for the pass, then hesitated, then Lemaire was gone with no one on his tail. Orr did not look good on this play either. With a 1 goal lead you'd think he'd play it safer than he did.

Habs goal #6 - Orr was in position but I have to agree, he played the puck and if he had of played the man harder, he prolly doesn't score. To be fair though, that's a tough play. Go too hard on the man away from the net and you open a lane to the backdoor in the slot. Anyone who's actually played defense knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention Orr's D partner turning the puck over to Beliveau there and then Beliveau out working 2 B's players at once to make the pass out front heh.

There's no excuse for a defenseman to let an opposing forward score off a play like that when both are standing in front of the next together. If Orr takes Ferguson's body or ties up his stick that's a nothing play. Instead he stood in front of the net and let the pass get to Ferguson.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Classic Maurice Richard Move

Classic Maurice Richard move? That Umberger goal is not what you, and others, have always tried to make it out to be. That was a regular season game featuring the top team (Detroit) and league's worst team (Philly) in what most call the dog days of the season. I remember it well. The game was not an important playoff game like this Orr example. Lidstrom did give Umberger too much room to come back towards the net with the puck but it was the minor league goalie in net who should have covered the short side better. You guys have to find better footage of Lidstrom getting beat than that. They are hard to find.

Classic Maurice Richard move. LHS coming down the right wing goes deep into the corner then button hooks in front of the net on his forehand and tries to score. Richard did at times because he was a LHS playing right wing. But NHL defensemen quickly caught on.

 

[Rhiessan71]

There's no excuse for a defenseman to let an opposing forward score off a play like that when both are standing in front of the next together. If Orr takes Ferguson's body or ties up his stick that's a nothing play. Instead he stood in front of the net and let the pass get to Ferguson.

Yep, you definitely didn't pay defense. I said enough on the other two goals already and stand by it.

I will however go into it at length on the 6th goal as you apparently need it explained to you at such.
There you are, taking up your spot in front of the net, in good position on the opposing player stationed there.
You see not one but two of your teammates on one opposing player behind the net and the player in front backs off the net a little.
Knowing that there's two of your players on one behind the net, you also know that there is an opposing player running around unmanned.
That realisation pins you/causes some hesitation and keeps you from being too aggressive for fear of opening up a passing lane into the slot where the unmanned opposing player can backdoor in.
Welcome to Hockey 101 my friend, class dismissed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Background

Funny that you mention that Beliveau was 40...how old was Orr in that video...22, 23?
Now for the video and the goals against.
Habs goal #1 - Orr is NOT on the ice for.

Habs goal #2 - Orr gets a short pass almost in his feet at the blueline that is stolen by Richard immediately. It was a bad pass by Sanderson, all he had to do was lightly chip in on the boards and Orr was gone.

Habs goal #3 - Habs score on the PP, nuff said.

Habs goal #4 - Orr is tied up with his man and the puck along the boards, Beliveau comes in and digs the puck out from both of them while #16 for the B's waves weakly at Beliveau, then seems to go for a little skate heh.

Habs goal #5 - You said it already, Orr gets hung out to dry on this one by a horribly ill-conceived pass.

Habs goal #6 - Orr was in position but I have to agree, he played the puck and if he had of played the man harder, he prolly doesn't score. To be fair though, that's a tough play. Go too hard on the man away from the net and you open a lane to the backdoor in the slot. Anyone who's actually played defense knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention Orr's D partner turning the puck over to Beliveau there and then Beliveau out working 2 B's players at once to make the pass out front heh.

Habs goal #7 - Orr gets caught deep trying to tie it up but at the same time, he was covered and it was only a 2 on 2 the other way. Too bad Espo f'd his couch on the play heh.

At least if you're going to attempt to break down video, don't do it half ass.
Same goes for people picking on Lidstrom with the Umberger vid...no NHL goalie should of let that weak, bad angle shot in.

Very solid film work. Some background is required since the clip represents parts of one game from a total of 17 playoff games that Bobby Orr and the Bruins played against that Canadiens during the 1968,1969, 1971 playoffs.

During that time the Canadiens had two constants at center,Jean Beliveau - LHS plus Henri Richard - RHS plus a swing player Jacques Lemaire who could play center or LW plus Ralph Backstrom - 1968-69, total of four elite skaters who could play defense, supported by Pete Mahovlich 1971 -C/LW, Bobby Rousseau C/RW and Rejean Houle C/RW.

Basic idea was to show Bobby Orr as many varied defensive looks as possible. Bobby Orr was able to adjust very quickly but the rest of the Bruins would not adjust and commit errors as you described..

The Canadiens won 12 of the 17 games but the Bruins performance improved steadily 0, 2 3 wins per series. Bobby Orr offensively improved from 2 to 12 points per series.His defensive play improved at a steady pace as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hockey 101A

Yep, you definitely didn't pay defense. I said enough on the other two goals already and stand by it.

I will however go into it at length on the 6th goal as you apparently need it explained to you at such.
There you are, taking up your spot in front of the net, in good position on the opposing player stationed there.
You see not one but two of your teammates on one opposing player behind the net and the player in front backs off the net a little.
Knowing that there's two of your players on one behind the net, you also know that there is an opposing player running around unmanned.
That realisation pins you/causes some hesitation and keeps you from being too aggressive for fear of opening up a passing lane into the slot where the unmanned opposing player can backdoor in.
Welcome to Hockey 101 my friend, class dismissed.

One of the more interesting aspects of the clip and the goals generated by the Canadiens from deep in the Bruins zone is that there seems to be a communications breakdown at times between Ed Johnston and the Bruin defensemen or the defensemen and forwards. The offense that the Canadiens ran was a bit different from what they ran during the regular season.

 

[Killion]

Welcome to Hockey 101 my friend, class dismissed.

....communications breakdown at times between Ed Johnston and the Bruin defensemen.

Bingo. EJ was not nearly aggressive enough which was mandatory with the kind of defencemen the Bruins had in front of him, Orr included, vocally or otherwise.