Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[Rhiessan71]

Quick, how many people here think that less than 5% of all posters in the history section have eve r used the word vapid in a sentence.

I'll also take the under on 50% of posters even knowing what it means (I'm in the under category and very well read, although one might not guess it with my posts...lol).

I'm quite confident that Orr would have been close to the scoring leaders in an 06 league, depending on team situation and coaching.

Raw numbers might have been less impressive and might have swayed how some view his legacy but it is pure conjecture.

Another poster asked me if I would want Orr for his career or Lidstrom for his which is still going. Bottom line is that I would consider it as a GM and that's why I think there is a debate for number 1.

Gotta look at this from both sides though.

Contemplate Orr playing today and Lidstrom playing then.

You have to know that with today's medical improvements, it's pretty much guaranteed Orr would not be limited to just playing a single decade.

By the same reversal, does Lidstrom make it through 1500+ games unfortunately prolly going through the same kind of crap that Salming went through?

I think it's a fair contemplation, all things considered, no?

...and yes I do realise that Orr's numbers today wouldn't be quite so gawdy and that Lidstrom's numbers would most likely improve.
It's still a trade off for each player but in the end I think Orr loses a lot less in his numbers than Lidstrom losses in longevity. Just my musings though.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Other Factors

Gotta look at this from both sides though.

Contemplate Orr playing today and Lidstrom playing then.

You have to know that with today's medical improvements, it's pretty much guaranteed Orr would not be limited to just playing a single decade.

By the same reversal, does Lidstrom make it through 1500+ games unfortunately prolly going through the same kind of crap that Salming went through?

I think it's a fair contemplation, all things considered, no?

...and yes I do realise that Orr's numbers today wouldn't be quite so gawdy and that Lidstrom's numbers would most likely improve.
It's still a trade off for each player but in the end I think Orr loses a lot less in his numbers than Lidstrom losses in longevity. Just my musings though.

Other Factors. Orr at short shift speed without allowing the opposition time to adjust? Lidstrom having to play shifts running upwards of two minutes of constant and variable pressure as the opposition adjusts?

 

[Killion]

Other Factors. Orr at short shift speed without allowing the opposition time to adjust? Lidstrom having to play shifts running upwards of two minutes of constant and variable pressure as the opposition adjusts?

I can pretty much assure you that intellect had very little to do with it C58. Instinct & a lot of free rein, from Parry Sound to Gordon Lightfoots' collar button & the submersible Edmund Fitzgerald on the Great Lakes meaning much more than you could imagine from #4.... A piece of Work in time.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

That's seems like the easy way out. Just watch interviews and see his success and you know he doesn't compromise to please anyone. A great Brendan Shanahan quote: "you hate him all season long until you are raising the cup and then you love him".

Anyhow I value his opinion and I truely believe he isn't going compromise his beliefs to please anyone. And he picks Lidstrom over Bourque and Harvey and that's enough for me.

Baaaaaaa. Baaaaaa. Black sheep, have you any wool? Just kidding. Seriously though, is there someone whose hockey opinion you hold higher than Bowman ('cause I'd love to research and see if THEY have an opinion on the matter), or is all of this just one of those cases we see all the time on HF where someone props themselves up on the opinion of Hockey Personality/Legend A because they happen to agree on this particular issue? It wouldn't be the first time I've come across it, but it might be a first for this particular board.

And for what it's worth, I've searched, and haven't found any conversation with Bowman discussing a situation where he has to choose between Lidstrom, Bourque, and Harvey. Are you sure that he places Lidstrom higher, or is it possible that he has them all lumped in his mind as "guys you would choose as your #1 defenseman without hesitation, none necessarily better than the others"? I mean, "wouldn't rate anyone higher" could be interpreted in a number of ways, some of which involve equal footing among those discussed, and others which include the possibility of a little hyperbole on Bowman's part.

 

[Killion]

....hyperbole on Bowman's part.

Afraid not. He of David Divinity said it so it must be true, Scotty Bowman can...... dig?.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Gotta look at this from both sides though.

Contemplate Orr playing today and Lidstrom playing then.

You have to know that with today's medical improvements, it's pretty much guaranteed Orr would not be limited to just playing a single decade.

By the same reversal, does Lidstrom make it through 1500+ games unfortunately prolly going through the same kind of crap that Salming went through?

I think it's a fair contemplation, all things considered, no?

...and yes I do realise that Orr's numbers today wouldn't be quite so gawdy and that Lidstrom's numbers would most likely improve.
It's still a trade off for each player but in the end I think Orr loses a lot less in his numbers than Lidstrom losses in longevity. Just my musings though.

No doubt that Orr wins that one, unsure how much punishment Nick would have put up with in the rough and tumble late 60's and early 70's.

as for the GM thing, I wasn't being literal but it was rather which players career would a GM take which I know is purely an exercise of the subjective.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

I get kick out of people who think Orr's defense was one of the greatest. Your child hood idol could not be in two places at the same time.

 

[85highlander]

I get kick out of people who think Orr's defense was one of the greatest. Your child hood idol could not be in two places at the same time.

Not two places at once, but unbelievable ability to get back when needed...

Go to 4 minutes and 20 secs and watch the next 25 secs...

Did Orr do this every shift. No. But he did it plenty enough to be the only player with a +1.01 per game for his career...



Btw, I'd love to see some footage of another defenseman (or any player) going end -- to end -- AND to end once again to finish a goal down low in ONE thirty second sequence.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

Not two places at once, but unbelievable ability to get back when needed...

Go to 4 minutes and 20 secs and watch the next 25 secs...

Did Orr do this every shift. No. But he did it plenty enough to be the only player with a +1.01 per game for his career...



Btw, I'd love to see some footage of another defenseman (or any player) going end -- to end -- AND to end once again to finish a goal down low in ONE thirty second sequence.

I'm not disputing his talent, but he wasn't one of the best defensively. He got caught up ice a fair amount hanging his defense partners out to dry.

Those who put him on par with Lidstrom defensively, I gotta question if they have ever watched him play or are they just regurgitating things they've heard from others that simply aren't true.

That's about the 700049494 time that same clip has been posted.

 

[85highlander]

I'm not disputing his talent, but he wasn't one of the best defensively. He got caught up ice a fair amount hanging his defense partners out to dry.

Yes, such a fair amount that while Orr was on the ice at even strength, Boston scored/defended at a 2.1 to 1 ratio.
While Orr was off the ice at even strength, Boston scored/defended at a 1.1 to 1 ratio. Perhaps his teammates wanted him on the ice to get hung out to dry a bit more...

Those who put him on par with Lidstrom defensively, I gotta question if they have ever watched him play or are they just regurgitating things they've heard from others that simply aren't true.

Really...? As one from Boston who witnessed the entire length of Orr's career in person and on the tube regularly during that era (not just 2x a season), I am not alone in clearly relaying what we witnessed -- these are not folk tales from daddy, this is personally attested to...and the video above provides a visual and historical smack down of your statement.

That's about the 700049494 time that same clip has been posted.

That would be difficult...I've only posted on these boards barely 200 times. Hyperbole aside, I believe it's the third time I posted it in this context over the past two years. Not an overwhelming amount, considering there are many on these boards who repeat the same dribble ad nauseam multiple times within a SINGLE thread.

If you can find Lindstrom, Bourque, Potvin, Harvey, or Jesus going end, to end, to end again with a goal like the one above I promise never to show it again...because, of course it is so common in the history of hockey to find this play duplicated.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'm not disputing his talent, but he wasn't one of the best defensively. He got caught up ice a fair amount hanging his defense partners out to dry.

In 1971, Bobby Orr was named the best defensive defenseman in the league (three way tie with him, Ted Harris and Al Arbour). Link.

To be balanced: Orr wasn't in the top five in a similar survey in 1974, but this still shows that Orr was, at least for a while, considered an elite defensive blueliner.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I'm not disputing his talent, but he wasn't one of the best defensively. He got caught up ice a fair amount hanging his defense partners out to dry.

There's a difference between getting caught up ice once in a while and being bad defensively.

Once the B's had a lead, Orr did not rush the puck anymore (he was not a guy to run up the score...unless you pissed him off lol) and would settle in and play shutdown defense like nobody's business.
It was just as frustrating to try and beat Orr defensively as it was to try and stop him offensively.

It was no where close to the same as guys like Green, Housley and Coffey whose actual defensive play is/was average at best.
(Just want to add that Coffey was actually better defensively than most give him credit for. Not that he was a shut down D-man by any stretch but he was at least a level above Green or Housley, as in he didn't actually look lost in his own zone like those two heh)

 

[Infinite Vision*]

If we consider puck control a form of defense, then I'm quite comfortable saying Orr was easily the best defensive player of his time.

 

[seventieslord]

If we consider puck control a form of defense, then I'm quite comfortable saying Orr was easily the best defensive player of his time.

I personally do. I mean it's not defensive play, but it prevents you from getting scored on nonetheless. And that's what matters. For that reason Jagr is underrated defensively.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

There's a difference between getting caught up ice once in a while and being bad defensively.

Once the B's had a lead, Orr did not rush the puck anymore (he was not a guy to run up the score...unless you pissed him off lol) and would settle in and play shutdown defense like nobody's business.
It was just as frustrating to try and beat Orr defensively as it was to try and stop him offensively.

It was no where close to the same as guys like Green, Housley and Coffey whose actual defensive play is/was average at best.
(Just want to add that Coffey was actually better defensively than most give him credit for. Not that he was a shut down D-man by any stretch but he was at least a level above Green or Housley, as in he didn't actually look lost in his own zone like those two heh)

Please don't take this wrong! But you quote things like you actually remember them. By your profile it's near impossible for you to remember and comprehend what was actually going on the ice during Orr's hayday. I'm guessing the first time you could really understand what was going on was a 10 game season for Orr.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I personally do. I mean it's not defensive play, but it prevents you from getting scored on nonetheless. And that's what matters. For that reason Jagr is underrated defensively.

Completely agree, Jagr is the perfect example.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Please don't take this wrong! But you quote things like you actually remember them. By your profile it's near impossible for you to remember and comprehend what was actually going on the ice during Orr's hayday. I'm guessing the first time you could really understand what was going on was a 10 game season for Orr.

Don't know about you or Rhiessan71, but I get the NHL network, and "classic" games are on all. the. time. I've seen a tonne of Orr from that source alone, forgetting for the moment that I believe we have a sticky to original 6 games, and some of those sources help direct you to other classic games between then and present. I'm sure just about everyone who has been here for a while has killed a few hours sifting through those. Don't automatically assume that people on this board aren't knowledgeable AND resourceful, noob.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Please don't take this wrong! But you quote things like you actually remember them. By your profile it's near impossible for you to remember and comprehend what was actually going on the ice during Orr's hayday. I'm guessing the first time you could really understand what was going on was a 10 game season for Orr.

You're kidding me right?
You've never watched Orr's games from archives, the NHL network?
Never listened/read what players and coaches said about him defensively during those seasons?

I've done enough extensive research, talked to enough people personally and watched enough game tape on Orr that I was pretty much there.


I don't talk out of my ass. If you haven't noticed, I say very little about Harvey because, quite simply, I don't feel I know/saw enough to really engage on his behalf fully.
It's really hard to find much footage of complete games involving Harvey unfortunately.
I fully admit that my ranking of Harvey is mostly due to what others say and have personally told me of the man and his play.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

In the games I've seen Orr play, which is about 3 or 4, I was actually surprised by how much he played positional defense, and how little he rushed the puck. There just seemed like there was so many plays, where he could have done so much more.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

You're kidding me right?
You've never watched Orr's games from archives, the NHL network?
Never listened/read what players and coaches said about him defensively during those seasons?

I've done enough extensive research, talked to enough people personally and watched enough game tape on Orr that I was pretty much there.


I don't talk out of my ass. If you haven't noticed, I say very little about Harvey because, quite simply, I don't feel I know/saw enough to really engage on his behalf fully.
It's really hard to find much footage of complete games involving Harvey unfortunately.
I fully admit that my ranking of Harvey is mostly due to what others say and have personally told me of the man and his play.

Your post is why I don't say anything about Harvey! I'll go with Mr. Bowman who had very up and close look at him both as a opponent and his player. Now I've watched Orr (I lived in HNIC days) as a kid, I've watched Bourque (I lived in NE before DirecTV and when the only show in town was NESN and WSBK-TV). And of course I watch every DRW via DirecTV or listen on the radio on WJR for many years.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Your post is why I don't say anything about Harvey! I'll go with Mr. Bowman who had very up and close look at him both as a opponent and his player. Now I've watched Orr (I lived in HNIC days) as a kid, I've watched Bourque (I lived in NE before DirecTV and when the only show in town was NESN and WSBK-TV). And of course I watch every DRW via DirecTV or listen on the radio on WJR for many years.

...and like I already said a few posts ago, I have no issue with people using Bowman's comments in Lidstrom's favour over Bourque and Harvey.
I only took issue when they were used to promote Lidstrom over Orr.
Bowman's views on Lidstrom vs Orr are A LOT murkier and certainly not anywhere close to being as cut and dry as you presented them.

I mean I get though, you're a Wings fan, you have a bit of bias going on.
In my experience, out of the people that actually do try and rank Lidstrom above Orr, 8 out of 10 of them are Wings fans that can't look past their bias. No offense, I understand it.
No different when I argue about the late 70's Canadiens, I know I have trouble talking or arguing about them without bias, it happens.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

...and like I already said a few posts ago, I have no issue with people using Bowman's comments in Lidstrom's favour over Bourque and Harvey.
I only took issue when they were used to promote Lidstrom over Orr.
Bowman's views on Lidstrom vs Orr are A LOT murkier and certainly not anywhere close to being as cut and dry as you presented them.

I mean I get though, you're a Wings fan, you have a bit of bias going on.
In my experience, out of the people that actually do try and rank Lidstrom above Orr, 8 out of 10 of them are Wings fans that can't look past their bias. No offense, I understand it.
No different when I argue about the late 70's Canadiens, I know I have trouble talking or arguing about them without bias, it happens.

Again I've NEVER said "Lidstrom over Orr"! But I do have Lidstrom as #2 based all of I've said earlier. BTW I place the 2002 DRW as one of the best TEAMS to win the SC.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Again I've NEVER said "Lidstrom over Orr"! But I do have Lidstrom as #2 based all of I've said earlier.

I know but I only felt it was fair that after you took a shot at me, I would do the same

BTW I place the 2002 DRW as one of the best TEAMS to win the SC.

So do i....right behind the '77 Habs

 

[CC Chiefs*]

I know but I only felt it was fair that after you took a shot at me, I would do the same





So do i....right behind the '77 Habs

I was going:

2002 DRW
2001 Avs
1977 Habs

 

[Canadiens1958]

Puck Control

I personally do. I mean it's not defensive play, but it prevents you from getting scored on nonetheless. And that's what matters. For that reason Jagr is underrated defensively.

Puck control is not viewed the same for forwards. Joe Thornton is the prime example. Yes he controls the puck on the perimeter but when he gets trapped in the offensive zone allowing an odd man rush off a turnover or unsuccessful scoring attempt his puck control becomes a liability.

Healthy Gretzky and Lemieux were able to use puck control as a defensive advantage, Jagr was somewhere between Thornton and Gretzky/Lemieux.