Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[Canadiens1958]

Contraction

In Bourque's first year in the league there were 4 new teams added from the WHA and the NHL hasn't expanded since Ray retired in 2001 so I don't know how you're coming up with this. There was loads of expansion during Bourque's career.

Ray Bourque initially played in the contraction era post WHA, not to be confused with expansion.When the WHA folded individual NHL teams received players as opposed to giving up players in an expansion. Expansion started in 1991-92 coincidently with the arrival of Nicklas Lidstrom and continued thru the end of Raymond Bourque's career.

 

[Rhiessan71]

In Bourque's first year in the league there were 4 new teams added from the WHA and the NHL hasn't expanded since Ray retired in 2001 so I don't know how you're coming up with this. There was loads of expansion during Bourque's career.

C'mon, none of those 4 teams were even close to your average run of the mill, taken advantage of expansion teams and they brought with them over 140 players to expand the talent level of the league.
And going back to your previous "lack of Euro talent" arguments vs Orr, that was also the first real large influx of European players.
Compared to Lidstrom, Bourque played the majority of his career relatively expansion free in a pretty tightly packed and talent laden league.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Actually he didn't pick Lidstrom over anybody. This is what he said:

"I will say I don't rate anyone AHEAD of Lidstrom"

So maybe he ranks all these players on the same level.

Seriously Lidstrom ranks ahead of all these guys except Harvey. You are banking your whole premise of Lidstrom being #1 all time based on this Bowman comment. For sure the vast majority of knowledgeable hockey people have Orr as easily #1 with Lidstrom, harvey & Shore fighting it out for # 2.

I personally don't have anyone ahead of Orr. But I'll use Bowman's evaluation to put Lidstrom above all others. Please don't discredit the greatest most winniest coach in the history of the NHL to make a point.

 

[pappyline]

I personally don't have anyone ahead of Orr. But I'll use Bowman's evaluation to put Lidstrom above all others. Please don't discredit the greatest most winniest coach in the history of the NHL to make a point.

Not discrediting Bowman at all. Just would like you to get his quote right. At best he is saying that Lidstrom is at the Harvey level and his opinion happens to be a minority opinion. Good to see you finally admit that Orr was number one.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I personally don't have anyone ahead of Orr. But I'll use Bowman's evaluation to put Lidstrom above all others. Please don't discredit the greatest most winniest coach in the history of the NHL to make a point.

Hey, you know what, that's fair dude.
Using Bowman's statements to promote Lidstrom over Bourque and Harvey is a reasonable argument, I still don't agree with it of course but it is reasonable.

Like I said like a dozen pages ago, leave Orr out of it and Lidstrom has a shot at #2.
Taking pokes at Orr, as any reasonable person can see so far, only hurts Lidstrom. Pretty much every argument used to promote Lidstrom over Orr can be turned around and used to promote Bourque over Lidstrom to one degree or another.
Seriously people, you gotta fight your battles one at a time. Fighting on 2 fronts is costing you the war.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Not discrediting Bowman at all. Just would like you to get his quote right. At best he is saying that Lidstrom is at the Harvey level and his opinion happens to be a minority opinion. Good to see you finally admit that Orr was number one.

I've never had Lidstrom #1. And as to minority I'll take Bowman over a bunch internet people.

 

[pappyline]

I've never had Lidstrom #1. And as to minority I'll Bowman take over a bunch internet people.

Many knowledgeable hockey people would have Harvey over Lidstrom. Did you see Harvey play? I did.

Bowman is a smart hockey guy but he is subject to bias as we all are. If you look you will find many knowledgeable hockey people who have a different view.

Don't put all your marbles in one quote that only really says that Harvey and Lidstrom may be equals.

Personally, I have lidstrom behind Orr, Harvey, Shore & Bourque.

 

[Killion]

"I will say I don't rate anyone AHEAD of Lidstrom"

Indeed pappy, I read Scotty's comments as being atypically ambivalent with respect to promoting Lidstrom above Orr & Harvey, more a magnanimous salute in terms of putting him on the same level, the same sphere if you will. Human nature being what it is, we all like to have fun debating who the best is, a Top 3, 5 or 10, however, it should be noted that the HHOF itself in honoring its inducted members refuses to acknowledge or accept such debate, that "all are equally worthy". I have seen fan polls elsewhere on the net that do indeed rank Lidstrom above Orr and I wouldnt call these folks stupid based on what Ive seen as to their rationale in making such a determination. I dont agree with them, but tell ya what, makes for lively debate no?. Scottys' no dummy, and IMHO he was simply being politically correct in responding the way he did....

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Indeed pappy, I read Scotty's comments as being atypically ambivalent with respect to promoting Lidstrom above Orr & Harvey, more a magnanimous salute in terms of putting him on the same level, the same sphere if you will. Human nature being what it is, we all like to have fun debating who the best is, a Top 3, 5 or 10, however, it should be noted that the HHOF itself in honoring its inducted members refuses to acknowledge or accept such debate, that "all are equally worthy". I have seen fan polls elsewhere on the net that do indeed rank Lidstrom above Orr and I wouldnt call these folks stupid based on what Ive seen as to their rationale in making such a determination. I dont agree with them, but tell ya what, makes for lively debate no?. Scottys' no dummy, and IMHO he was simply being politically correct in responding the way he did....

How? He's with Chicago now? Bowman was NOT a yes sir man and he told like it was, ask Coffey who wouldn't play defense and was jettisoned by Bowman.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Hey, you know what, that's fair dude.
Using Bowman's statements to promote Lidstrom over Bourque and Harvey is a reasonable argument, I still don't agree with it of course but it is reasonable.

Like I said like a dozen pages ago, leave Orr out of it and Lidstrom has a shot at #2.
Taking pokes at Orr, as any reasonable person can see so far, only hurts Lidstrom. Pretty much every argument used to promote Lidstrom over Orr can be turned around and used to promote Bourque over Lidstrom to one degree or another.
Seriously people, you gotta fight your battles one at a time. Fighting on 2 fronts is costing you the war.

Now we are getting somewhere! Great post. Let me make it as clear as possible BOBBY ORR is #1 on my list of defensemen, he's probably 4-6 of alltime and all positions in the history of NHL players.

 

[pappyline]

I've never had Lidstrom #1.

Sorry, I mixed you up with danincanada who has Lidstrom above Orr (maybe he will come around if he gets his red swingline stapler back)

 

[Rhiessan71]

Sorry, I mixed you up with danincanada who has Lidstrom above Orr (maybe he will come around if he gets his red swingline stapler back)

Haha, wasn't sure how many would get the reference

 

[pappyline]

Haha, wasn't sure how many would get the reference

One of my favorite films. Have watched it several times.

 

[Killion]

How? He's with Chicago now? Bowman was NOT a yes sir man and he told like it was, ask Coffey who wouldn't play defense and was jettisoned by Bowman.

There be a "Code" in hockey 1234, one that like the Jim Croce song suggests "you dont ------ into the wind" & you dont "tug on Supermans Cape" that Scotty is more than cognizant of in choosing his words. Its irrelevant to the point that he's a "consultant" elsewhere. The man lives outside of Buffalo. A mercenary. So what?. If I had a nickle for every "Scotty'ism" then I guess his one time statements that the "French Connection Line is one of the best lines in hockey probably of all time" as gospel?. Word by word, parsed, is that you can always count on Scotty Bowman for providing yet more questions than answers.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

There be a "Code" in hockey 1234, one that like the Jim Croce song suggests "you dont ------ into the wind" & you dont "tug on Supermans Cape" that Scotty is more than cognizant of in choosing his words. Its irrelevant to the point that he's a "consultant" elsewhere. The man lives outside of Buffalo. A mercenary. So what?. If I had a nickle for every "Scotty'ism" then I guess his one time statements that the "French Connection Line is one of the best lines in hockey probably of all time" as gospel?. Word by word, parsed, is that you can always count on Scotty Bowman for providing yet more questions than answers.

Isn't not outright picking Bourque and Harvey straight up over a Euro breaking the "code" and ----ing into the wind. What exactly does Bowman have to gain by picking Lidstrom over everyone else except Orr?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Code

There be a "Code" in hockey 1234, one that like the Jim Croce song suggests "you dont ------ into the wind" & you dont "tug on Supermans Cape" that Scotty is more than cognizant of in choosing his words. Its irrelevant to the point that he's a "consultant" elsewhere. The man lives outside of Buffalo. A mercenary. So what?. If I had a nickle for every "Scotty'ism" then I guess his one time statements that the "French Connection Line is one of the best lines in hockey probably of all time" as gospel?. Word by word, parsed, is that you can always count on Scotty Bowman for providing yet more questions than answers.

The "Hockey Code" is very complex but simple.

The base is an old truism "Never say anything that will appear on the oppositions bulletin board as motivation".

Other feature include, expand, illuminate but do not educate by revealing the inner details.

Purpose of interviews is to grow the game. In this context questions are great since they grow interest in the game. More questions = more interest.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

The "Hockey Code" is very complex but simple.

The base is an old truism "Never say anything that will appear on the oppositions bulletin board as motivation".

Other feature include, expand, illuminate but do not educate by revealing the inner details.

Purpose of interviews is to grow the game. In this context questions are great since they grow interest in the game. More questions = more interest.

Man some of you guys really don't know the elder Bowman very well. There's no way he would do anything to compromise his TRUE beliefs. That's why he has been sooooo successful. Imagine this? Mr. Ilitch is it OKAY if I trade future HHOFer Coffey. I don't think that question was ever asked and he told Mr. Ilitch here's what I'm going to do.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

The "Hockey Code" is very complex but simple.

The base is an old truism "Never say anything that will appear on the oppositions bulletin board as motivation".

Other feature include, expand, illuminate but do not educate by revealing the inner details.

Purpose of interviews is to grow the game. In this context questions are great since they grow interest in the game. More questions = more interest.

This whole post smells of people not truely knowing Scotty Bowman and what he stand for.

 

[Killion]

Isn't not outright picking Bourque and Harvey straight up over a Euro breaking the "code" and ----ing into the wind. What exactly does Bowman have to gain by picking Lidstrom over everyone else except Orr?

Yikes on that comment 1234. Im no Xenophobe nor am I protectionist nor pretentious to the point of exclusion based on nationality or heritage. Im an equal opportunity offender.

The base is an old truism "Never say anything that will appear on the oppositions bulletin board as motivation".

That'd be a B.I.N.G.O.

Imagine this? Mr. Ilitch is it OKAY if I trade future HHOFer Coffey.

I cant imagine Scotty Bowman being asked much more by Mike Illitch than what it is he wants on his pizza. Get real.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Yikes on that comment 1234. Im no Xenophobe nor am I protectionist nor pretentious to the point of exclusion based on nationality or heritage. Im an equal opportunity offender.



That'd be a B.I.N.G.O.



I cant imagine Scotty Bowman being asked much more by Mike Illitch than what it is he wants on his pizza. Get real.

Once again you are missing the point. Scotty said/says/does what Scotty wants and there isn't any "code" that he's going to follow if that not what he believes. It's very disappointing to me that some will poopoo the comments of the greatest hockey coach in the history of the NHL and say he was following the company line when he never did that before.

BTW that's a very degrading comment about what many call the greatest owner in sports not just the NHL.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Once again you are missing the point. Scotty said/says/does what Scotty wants and there isn't any "code" that he's going to follow if that not what he believes. It's very disappointing to me that some will poopoo the comments of the greatest hockey coach in the history of the NHL and say he was following the company line when he never did that before.

BTW that's a very degrading comment about what many call the greatest owner in sports not just the NHL.

Sounds like you know Mr. Bowman personally.

Is this true?

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Sounds like you know Mr. Bowman personally.

Is this true?

That's seems like the easy way out. Just watch interviews and see his success and you know he doesn't compromise to please anyone. A great Brendan Shanahan quote: "you hate him all season long until you are raising the cup and then you love him".

Anyhow I value his opinion and I truely believe he isn't going compromise his beliefs to please anyone. And he picks Lidstrom over Bourque and Harvey and that's enough for me.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's seems like the easy way out. Just watch interviews and see his success and you know he doesn't compromise to please anyone. A great Brendan Shanahan quote: "you hate him all season long until you are raising the cup and then you love him".

Anyhow I value his opinion and I truely believe he isn't going compromise his beliefs to please anyone. And he picks Lidstrom over Bourque and Harvey and that's enough for me.

Way out of what?

Seemed to me you knew Mr. Bowman by your seemingly factual statements about him.

Guess I was mistaken.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Very well done and argued.

Simplification abounds. Catch phrases rule. The "Dead Puck Era" nice headlines or sound bites that are vapid.

Quick, how many people here think that less than 5% of all posters in the history section have eve r used the word vapid in a sentence.

I'll also take the under on 50% of posters even knowing what it means (I'm in the under category and very well read, although one might not guess it with my posts...lol).

I'm quite confident that Orr would have been close to the scoring leaders in an 06 league, depending on team situation and coaching.

Raw numbers might have been less impressive and might have swayed how some view his legacy but it is pure conjecture.

Another poster asked me if I would want Orr for his career or Lidstrom for his which is still going. Bottom line is that I would consider it as a GM and that's why I think there is a debate for number 1.

 

[Canadiens1958]

GM Considerations

Quick, how many people here think that less than 5% of all posters in the history section have eve r used the word vapid in a sentence.

I'll also take the under on 50% of posters even knowing what it means (I'm in the under category and very well read, although one might not guess it with my posts...lol).

I'm quite confident that Orr would have been close to the scoring leaders in an 06 league, depending on team situation and coaching.

Raw numbers might have been less impressive and might have swayed how some view his legacy but it is pure conjecture.

Another poster asked me if I would want Orr for his career or Lidstrom for his which is still going. Bottom line is that I would consider it as a GM and that's why I think there is a debate for number 1.

GM considerations are always forward looking projections so Orr over Lidstrom without any doubt as a choice between projectable 18 year olds. Skating alone with the skill package makes it a rather simple choice - Orr.At no time in his career was Lidstrom ever considered the best or close to the best skater in hockey. Orr was always the best skater in hockey.

GM considerations are never made from a post or end of career standpoint.